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Target Painter vs. Web vs. Tracking Computer

Author
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#21 - 2013-01-22 18:25:09 UTC
Eternal Error wrote:
Gypsio III wrote:
The number of people who don't understand how target painting fits into the tracking formula never ceases to amaze me.

I'll rephrase.

Given the diminishing mathematical returns in the tracking formula and the difficulty of realistically getting the turretSig:TargetSig ratio significantly below .5 (assuming target MWD off), the cutoff that players tend to worry about is TargetSig=turretSig.

I.E. we could have a debate over all the math and post up 50 different graphs, but given the prevalence of webs, the ease with which one can minimize transversal, the stacking penalties involved with TPs, and the fact that you're generally shooting at something of similar size anyway, most people don't worry about trying to bloom the target's sig radius as much as possible. It helps, but is generally the last thing you try except in extreme cases (sniper gangs, blap dreads, etc.)

To the OP, yes, the statement "target sig only matters if it's less than the resolution of the guns" is technically incorrect (see here: http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Turret_damage), but a very good cutoff to follow.


So what is the cut off point for tracking, or is more tracking always better?

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Eternal Error
Doomheim
#22 - 2013-01-22 19:35:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Eternal Error
Liang Nuren wrote:

So what is the cut off point for tracking, or is more tracking always better?

-Liang

I'm not sure if this was sarcasm or not. Obviously there is no simple answer, but more tracking would always be better, and there are, once again, diminishing returns given the equation. It's the same relationship in the same place in the equation, it's just way easier (IMO) to analyze gun sig res vs target sig res and to put a number on it by plugging it in as a simple variable ratio... you could of course achieve the same end goal of a % increase in tracking with a % increase in sig

To be clear, I was mistaken (for some reason I just believed it because so many people repeated it)
Debir Achen
Makiriemi Holdings
#23 - 2013-01-24 14:00:41 UTC
Consider the tracking calculation. It's all built around what I call the "tracking factor":

T = (transversal * sig res) / (range * sig * tracking)

It can also be expressed as (angular velocity * sig res) / (sig * tracking), but the above form is more useful for this discussion.


If you're inside optimal, the chance to hit is 0.5 ^ (T^2). This is 100% when T = 0, 50% when T = 1, 6.25% when T = 2, and so on, dropping off very quickly for T > 1 but also quickly approaching 100% for T < 1.

For this discussion, let's assume that range and your gun's sig res are fixed, and represent transversal as speed, so we get the following:

Bigger is worse for shooter: transversal
Bigger is better for shooter: target sig, tracking.

Doubling any term on the top line has exactly the same effect on accuracy as halving a term on the bottom line, and vice versa.


So, how do our modules stack up?

A decent unbonused web will slow the target by 60%. This is the same as multiplying by 0.4, or dividing by 2.5. A web has severe range limitations, but slowing the target not only improves our accuracy but also improves our ability to dictate range. Webs are stacking penalised with other webs. Webs improve accuracy for all vessels attacking the target with guns and also improve missile damage.

An unbonused PWNAGE with sig focusing V increases sig by 30% * 1.25 = 37.5%, or multiplies by 1.375. This is stacking penalised with other painters and with MWD and shield rig sig increases. Target painters have decent range, plus a falloff. Webs improve accuracy for all vessels attacking the target with guns and also improve missile damage.

A scripted Tracking Computer II improves tracking by 30%, or multiplies by 1.3. This is stacking penalised with other modules that improve tracking. Tracking modules apply at any range, but only affect the ship they are mounted on.

Note: all three module types under consideration stack fully with each other, as they affect different parts of the calculation.


If you can get the target in range, webs are far and away the superior option. They are almost twice as effective as anything else (before we start squaring things!), suffer fewer stacking issues, and also grant speed superiority.

Target painters have range, and not much else. The bonus granted is a lot smaller, and they suffer more from stacking penalties. They are a little more useful on missile boats, as missile damage is capped at sig / explosion radius, regardless of any other factors (the other two factors are a combination of sig, explosion radius, speed and explosion velocity, and 100% - apply the smallest of the three factors to the nominal damage to get actual damage).

Tracking bonuses only affect you (tracking links notwithstanding), but at least you are in complete control of them and they always apply.

Side comment: an unbonused scripted tracking disruptor at level V applies a penalty of just over 50% (20.1% * 0.25 * 2). Applying a single target painter is not enough to fully counter a tracking disruptor. A single web will provide a bigger benefit that a single TD penalty.


(Caveat: some numbers might have chanced since I last looked)

Aren't Caldari supposed to have a large signature?

ChromeStriker
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#24 - 2013-01-24 14:31:52 UTC
Insert double web, double TP, Rapier and fit TC's your self. Then this argument become mute :)

No Worries

Tash'k Omar
Indefinite Mass
#25 - 2013-01-24 15:32:56 UTC
Debir Achen wrote:
Consider the tracking calculation. It's all built around what I call the "tracking factor":

T = (transversal * sig res) / (range * sig * tracking)

It can also be expressed as (angular velocity * sig res) / (sig * tracking), but the above form is more useful for this discussion.


If you're inside optimal, the chance to hit is 0.5 ^ (T^2). This is 100% when T = 0, 50% when T = 1, 6.25% when T = 2, and so on, dropping off very quickly for T > 1 but also quickly approaching 100% for T < 1.

---


Thank you very much. Excellent post.
Onomerous
Caldari Black Hand
Caldari Tactical Operations Command
#26 - 2013-01-24 17:27:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Onomerous
I think there is some confusion between the 'game' and mathematics. Ultimately the formula describes the game but it is math at the core. Therefore you have to apply the rules of math to the situation while removing the 'game' aspect.

If the formula is correct (I have no reason to believe it is not) then some of the ideas thrown out are wrong. Therefore:

1) If target sig >> weapon sig/explosion radius, then the TP doesn't help much at all. Mathematically this is not true but it is reasonable from a 'game' perspective. Any increase in signature of the target will have a positive affect on T (tracking factor).


From a purely mathematical perspective, this is all that matters:

Bigger is worse for shooter: transversal
Bigger is better for shooter: target sig, tracking.


Since the 'game' is mathematical at the core (all 1 and 0 on a computer), this is the bottom line. Webs are still the best but TP with their larger % increases are 'mathematically' better than TC/TE (not withstanding all the other considerations). If you only think in terms of an actual ship moving in space of course you will argue the point (but EVE really is just 1 and 0 on a computer!!).


** waits for flames** :)
Debir Achen
Makiriemi Holdings
#27 - 2013-01-28 03:51:17 UTC
Consider a griffin pilot orbiting a battleship at 10km with his Limited 1MN Microwarpdrive running. For argument's sake, say his speed is 2520 m/s (loses a bit due to orbit). With the microwarpdrive running, his sig is 252 m.

Putting this into the above formula gives T = 2520 * sig res / (252 * 10k * tracking) = sig res / (1000 * tracking).

We're dealing with a battleship, so sig res of its guns is 400. Thus, T = 400 / (1000 * tracking), or 0.25 / tracking.

A Rokh with a full rack of Neutron Blaster Cannons II and an all-V pilot has base tracking of 0.0649. 0.25 / 0.0649 is a little under 4, which gives the Rokh a 0.003% chance to hit.

Add a single TC II with a tracking speed script, and tracking rises to 0.0844. T = 2.96, hit = 0.23%.

Stick a 60% web on the target and its speed drops to 2520 * 0.4 = 1008. At tracking 0.0649, this gives T = 1.54, hit 19.29%. At tracking 0.0844, T = 1.18, hit 37.79%.

Applying a single tracking module and a web has taken our pesky frigate from unhittable to taking quite a bit of damage. One more module and it could quickly become very dead.

Aren't Caldari supposed to have a large signature?

Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#28 - 2013-01-28 11:17:38 UTC
One thing to note : if you plan to orbit your target, then the web will not help you. Infact, the only moment a web will help you to track is when you plan to minimize the transversale. If you want to increase your transversale, or even not reducing it, then you are better with a TP or TC, as only those will help you to outtrack your target.
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