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[Retribution 1.1] Armor Tanking 1.5

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Dread Operative
Main Corporation
Prisoners With Jobs
#641 - 2013-01-23 19:56:59 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
A few updates:

We're switching the AAR to use nanite repair paste instead of cap boosters. What we're looking at now is for them to hold 8 reps worth of paste, with the smalls eating 1 per cycle, the mediums eating 5 and the larges eating 10.

I'm also investigating our options for reducing the base powergrid need for medium and large armor reps a bit.

We're aiming to have all of this on Sisi before the weekend. Please note that just because things are on Sisi doesn't mean they can no longer change. It just means we want to give people a chance to try it out in the game client.


So a fully loaded MAAR will cost twice as much to run as a LASB. Lame.
Perihelion Olenard
#642 - 2013-01-23 20:01:29 UTC
Dread Operative wrote:

So a fully loaded MAAR will cost twice as much to run as a LASB. Lame.

It's what the community was asking for.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#643 - 2013-01-23 20:03:28 UTC
Dread Operative wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
A few updates:

We're switching the AAR to use nanite repair paste instead of cap boosters. What we're looking at now is for them to hold 8 reps worth of paste, with the smalls eating 1 per cycle, the mediums eating 5 and the larges eating 10.

I'm also investigating our options for reducing the base powergrid need for medium and large armor reps a bit.

We're aiming to have all of this on Sisi before the weekend. Please note that just because things are on Sisi doesn't mean they can no longer change. It just means we want to give people a chance to try it out in the game client.


So a fully loaded MAAR will cost twice as much to run as a LASB. Lame.

Yeah and you can only hold 1600 units or repair paste per 400 cap booster.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#644 - 2013-01-23 20:18:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Veshta Yoshida
Dread Operative wrote:
So a fully loaded MAAR will cost twice as much to run as a LASB. Lame.

"Easy" enough to sort out by tweaking PI formula's when/if needed. If the new mod takes off in the same way the broken ASB did then paste prices will skyrocket and an adjustment necessary.

Just the thought that I'll be able to keep up with the pesky omni-present shield abominations in both speed and tank makes me all dizzy with anticipation .. read: I'd happily pay loads more than suggested for the power I'll have!
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#645 - 2013-01-23 20:22:25 UTC
Veshta Yoshida wrote:
Dread Operative wrote:
So a fully loaded MAAR will cost twice as much to run as a LASB. Lame.

"Easy" enough to sort out by tweaking PI formula's when/if needed. If the new mod takes off in the same way the broken ASB did then paste prices will skyrocket and an adjustment necessary.



It is easy enough, but that doesn't mean they'll do it.
Galatea Galilei
Summa Universalia
#646 - 2013-01-23 20:44:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Galatea Galilei
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
The question is more what do you, moaners, want armor tanking to be ? Shield need to still be viable after that.

What I want it to be is not so terrible that on a ship that gets an armor rep bonus, you can fit a more powerful tank by ignoring the bonus and fitting a shield tank instead. I don't see why shield tanking would cease to be viable if armor tanking were made to be as effective at tanking, just with suckier disadvantages. That would be a huge improvement to the current situation, where armor tanking in addition to having more severe disadvantages, and crowding out your damage amp modules so you do less dps, it also happens to not be able to tank as much incoming damage! If it's going to be worse at actually tanking damage, it ought to have less severe disadvantages. Or if it's going to continue to have more severe disadvantages, it ought to be at least as good if not better at actually tanking incoming dps. But no, for your more severe disadvantages, you're rewarded with a less powerful tank and end up warping out of bad spawns where the intelligent player who just ignored the bonus and fit a shield tank keeps right on trucking through the damage, with passive shield regen healing way more than your pitiful two armor reps can do even with the hull bonus helping...
Dzajic
#647 - 2013-01-23 20:45:28 UTC
1 nanite per cycle, 9 for full for frigs. Ok reasonable. It will be more expensive than cap boosters, but yes vastly lower volume.

Ofc, changing PI formula to cut nanite paste prices say in half would be doubleplusgood.
Takeshi Yamato
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#648 - 2013-01-23 20:46:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Takeshi Yamato
The say a picture is worth a thousand words... here is a graphical comparison of the AAR and the ASB


http://i.imgur.com/REYYlHK.jpg (updated with correct total rep amount for the AAR)


Please correct any mistakes I have made.

Please note that I gave the AAR 3x rigs to help it out a little bit. I didn't include the Overcharge rig because the exact mechanics have not been clarified.
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#649 - 2013-01-23 20:48:01 UTC
Dread Operative wrote:
So a fully loaded MAAR will cost twice as much to run as a LASB. Lame.

Cost of doing business as a Gallente pilot. Not a big deal....
Rented
Hunter Heavy Industries
#650 - 2013-01-23 20:52:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Rented
Takeshi Yamato wrote:
The say a picture is worth a thousand words... here is a graphical comparison of the AAR and the ASB


http://i.imgur.com/j0CLZs5.jpg


Please correct any mistakes I have made.

Please note that I gave the AAR 3x rigs to help it out a little bit. I didn't include the Overcharge rig because the exact mechanics have not been clarified.


You forgot to emphasize that the AAR also takes longer to repair less.

But you did actually make a mistake... you didn't amplify the repair amount by 2.25 like you should've (you only noted it on the effective repair amount). And Fozzie jsut announced he's nerfing the AAR down to only 8 cycles, not 9.
Takeshi Yamato
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#651 - 2013-01-23 20:59:24 UTC
Rented wrote:
Takeshi Yamato wrote:
The say a picture is worth a thousand words... here is a graphical comparison of the AAR and the ASB


http://i.imgur.com/j0CLZs5.jpg


Please correct any mistakes I have made.

Please note that I gave the AAR 3x rigs to help it out a little bit. I didn't include the Overcharge rig because the exact mechanics have not been clarified.


You forgot to emphasize that the AAR also takes longer to repair less.

But you did actually make a mistake... you didn't amplify the repair amount by 2.25 like you should've (you only noted it on the effective repair amount). And Fozzie jsut announced he's nerfing the AAR down to only 8 cycles, not 9.


Good catch, I'm going to update the graphic.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#652 - 2013-01-23 20:59:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Bouh Revetoile
Takeshi Yamato wrote:
The say a picture is worth a thousand words... here is a graphical comparison of the AAR and the ASB


http://i.imgur.com/j0CLZs5.jpg


Please correct any mistakes I have made.

Please note that I gave the AAR 3x rigs to help it out a little bit. I didn't include the Overcharge rig because the exact mechanics have not been clarified.

MAR rep 240hp/cycle.
MAAR would hence rep 240 * 3/4 = 180 hp/c when NOT charged. Charged, rep is tripled, going to 540 hp/c.
Hence, with 9 cycles, you are looking for 4860hp repaired, which is more than a LASB.

With 2 nanopump, MAAR base repair value become 312*0,75 = 234 ; and then with charge : 234 * 3 = 702 ; with 9 cycles : 702 * 9 = 6318 hp total.

ehp/s value of your picture should be good though.

PS : meh, not fast enough
Perihelion Olenard
#653 - 2013-01-23 21:00:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Perihelion Olenard
Takeshi Yamato wrote:
The say a picture is worth a thousand words... here is a graphical comparison of the AAR and the ASB


http://i.imgur.com/j0CLZs5.jpg


Please correct any mistakes I have made.

Please note that I gave the AAR 3x rigs to help it out a little bit. I didn't include the Overcharge rig because the exact mechanics have not been clarified.

Comparing a single medium AAR to the x-large and large ASB is pretty pointless. You'd be better off comparing small apples to extremely large oranges.
mine mi
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#654 - 2013-01-23 21:01:40 UTC
In my opinion,

Amarr resist bonus

Gallente hitpoints bonus

caldari resist bonus

minmatar shield boost.

would be less symmetrical and Gallente ships suits them best a buffer that does not add mass, than a repair module it consumes capacitor.
fr0gout
#655 - 2013-01-23 21:04:31 UTC
Dread Operative wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
A few updates:

We're switching the AAR to use nanite repair paste instead of cap boosters. What we're looking at now is for them to hold 8 reps worth of paste, with the smalls eating 1 per cycle, the mediums eating 5 and the larges eating 10.

I'm also investigating our options for reducing the base powergrid need for medium and large armor reps a bit.

We're aiming to have all of this on Sisi before the weekend. Please note that just because things are on Sisi doesn't mean they can no longer change. It just means we want to give people a chance to try it out in the game client.


So a fully loaded MAAR will cost twice as much to run as a LASB. Lame.


Nanite Repair past takes up next to no cargo space however. For example a full reload for a large AAR would only take 0.80m3 (80x nanite past)

I think it's interesting to have different strengths/drawbacks for both modules
Takeshi Yamato
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#656 - 2013-01-23 21:08:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Takeshi Yamato
Updated graphic with correct AAR total rep amount:

http://i.imgur.com/REYYlHK.jpg

For anyone wondering, the AAR tank without the rigs is is 238.5 per second, total of 4320. That's less than the L-ASB total.

This also shows how utterly ridiculous oversizing is.
Nikuno
Atomic Heroes
#657 - 2013-01-23 21:13:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Nikuno
CCP Fozzie wrote:
A few updates:

We're switching the AAR to use nanite repair paste instead of cap boosters. What we're looking at now is for them to hold 8 reps worth of paste, with the smalls eating 1 per cycle, the mediums eating 5 and the larges eating 10.

I'm also investigating our options for reducing the base powergrid need for medium and large armor reps a bit.

We're aiming to have all of this on Sisi before the weekend. Please note that just because things are on Sisi doesn't mean they can no longer change. It just means we want to give people a chance to try it out in the game client.


Please, leave it at a default of 9 cyles when fully loaded. Do you really think there are many ASBs that run on non-navy boosters? I never would and I can't say I've come across many. I could link kms if you like showing the navy charges but I'm sure you can find plenty for yourself.

This still leaves the questions of

1. Does it rep at the lower 3/4 level while it reloads or does it deactivate?

2. If it doesn't continue to rep can it be made optional to switch the boost on giving the chance to begin by running in 3/4 mode whilst holding the burst until needed?
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#658 - 2013-01-23 21:17:22 UTC
Takeshi Yamato wrote:
The say a picture is worth a thousand words... here is a graphical comparison of the AAR and the ASB


http://i.imgur.com/REYYlHK.jpg (updated with correct total rep amount for the AAR)


Please correct any mistakes I have made.

Please note that I gave the AAR 3x rigs to help it out a little bit. I didn't include the Overcharge rig because the exact mechanics have not been clarified.

Why the resist mods, should be enough to just use the suitcase as both ships have resist bonus?
Why two tanking mods for shield .. you'll need to (at least) add a T2 MAR to Prophecy to even out the effect of the amplifier.

Speaking of which .. where is my fittings friendly super boost to my armour tanking mods .. I want a nanite amplifier!
Rented
Hunter Heavy Industries
#659 - 2013-01-23 21:19:12 UTC
Perihelion Olenard wrote:
Takeshi Yamato wrote:
The say a picture is worth a thousand words... here is a graphical comparison of the AAR and the ASB


http://i.imgur.com/j0CLZs5.jpg


Please correct any mistakes I have made.

Please note that I gave the AAR 3x rigs to help it out a little bit. I didn't include the Overcharge rig because the exact mechanics have not been clarified.

Comparing a single medium AAR to the x-large and large ASB is pretty pointless. You'd be better off comparing small apples to extremely large oranges.


You say this almost as if there was any meaningful difference in fitting requirements between the medium AAR and the large ASB. It's almost as if you believe the medium AAR can be stacked.... which it can't, or that the large ASB can't be stacked.... which it can. And perhaps you believed the armor tank wasn't taking up more slots and using up all the rig slots, which it was.
Perihelion Olenard
#660 - 2013-01-23 21:19:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Perihelion Olenard
Takeshi Yamato wrote:
Updated graphic with correct AAR total rep amount:

http://i.imgur.com/REYYlHK.jpg

For anyone wondering, the AAR tank without the rigs is is 238.5 per second, total of 4320. That's less than the L-ASB total.

This also shows how utterly ridiculous oversizing is.

Again, your comparison is pointless. You can put regular armor repairers on the ship as well further improving the tank. And just because the ancillary armor repairer is out of paste doesn't mean it's finished repairing. Unlike the ASB, the cap usage doesn't become absurd.