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[Retribution 1.1] Armor Tanking 1.5

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Apostrof Ahashion
Doomheim
#621 - 2013-01-23 17:58:27 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:


These change are awesome, and some people should really think about them all. Buffer armor will still be brick, but less than before. And hopefuly, lighter armor buffer will now have a reason to live. But above all, this AAR will be amazing : alowing for effective mix tank (AAR+buffer) or usable active tank (with AAR+AR) or the old pure active tank, and without killing your speed, and more importantly, freeing you a low slots (and maybe a med slot : less armor reper mean less cap needed ; and as the AAR will run for a little more than one minute, you don't need more than that of cap life before being cap stable again).


Buffer armor will still be the same brick, since the buff we get for training new skill does nothing significant. ~20m/s on BC with 1600 plate.

AAR wont change anything, you will just swap one repairer for it. Not a single fit will change. And it 100% wont free you any slots, dont really understand what led you to that conclusion. It is just a straight, flat armor repair boost that will cost us incredibly boring cargohold management. And buffer&active tank combo is not really that good idea, dont get your hopes up.
chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Spaceship Bebop
#622 - 2013-01-23 18:24:21 UTC
Apostrof Ahashion wrote:


AAR wont change anything, you will just swap one repairer for it. Not a single fit will change. And it 100% wont free you any slots, dont really understand what led you to that conclusion. It is just a straight, flat armor repair boost that will cost us incredibly boring cargohold management. And buffer&active tank combo is not really that good idea, dont get your hopes up.


Dual rep fits can now fit one repper and have the same effectiveness for 2 minutes while decreasing cap use, freeing a lowslot, and freeing up a ton of grid. This is a very significant fitting change IMO.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
#623 - 2013-01-23 18:38:00 UTC
chatgris wrote:
Apostrof Ahashion wrote:


AAR wont change anything, you will just swap one repairer for it. Not a single fit will change. And it 100% wont free you any slots, dont really understand what led you to that conclusion. It is just a straight, flat armor repair boost that will cost us incredibly boring cargohold management. And buffer&active tank combo is not really that good idea, dont get your hopes up.


Dual rep fits can now fit one repper and have the same effectiveness for 2 minutes while decreasing cap use, freeing a lowslot, and freeing up a ton of grid. This is a very significant fitting change IMO.


A single AAR is not equivalent to a dual rep fit.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Apostrof Ahashion
Doomheim
#624 - 2013-01-23 18:41:19 UTC
chatgris wrote:
Apostrof Ahashion wrote:


AAR wont change anything, you will just swap one repairer for it. Not a single fit will change. And it 100% wont free you any slots, dont really understand what led you to that conclusion. It is just a straight, flat armor repair boost that will cost us incredibly boring cargohold management. And buffer&active tank combo is not really that good idea, dont get your hopes up.


Dual rep fits can now fit one repper and have the same effectiveness for 2 minutes while decreasing cap use, freeing a lowslot, and freeing up a ton of grid. This is a very significant fitting change IMO.


If you ignore the fact that armor reps suck and that you actually need that module to give you more rep. Duo rep fits will still want that second rep and so will triple rep fits. And since both Gallente and Amarr use cap to fire you will still need battery in the mids.
Fon Revedhort
Monks of War
#625 - 2013-01-23 18:44:22 UTC
One should also never miss the fact how this AAR comes in one version only. The idea of having the same level of investement applied to aVindicator and a plain Megathrone is very dubious. Hardly anyone fits this way at actual TQ PvP, it's usually considered reasonable to invest some isk in better gear if your ship isn't free. And now we are forced to use free mods even at hulls which cost isk, like faction battleships. Meh.

"Being supporters of free speech and free and open [CSM] elections... we removed Fon Revedhort from eligibility". CCP, April 2013.

CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#626 - 2013-01-23 18:51:47 UTC
A few updates:

We're switching the AAR to use nanite repair paste instead of cap boosters. What we're looking at now is for them to hold 8 reps worth of paste, with the smalls eating 1 per cycle, the mediums eating 5 and the larges eating 10.

I'm also investigating our options for reducing the base powergrid need for medium and large armor reps a bit.

We're aiming to have all of this on Sisi before the weekend. Please note that just because things are on Sisi doesn't mean they can no longer change. It just means we want to give people a chance to try it out in the game client.

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie

Perihelion Olenard
#627 - 2013-01-23 18:57:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Perihelion Olenard
Why are people so concerned about fitting problems with the new rigs? It's not nearly as bad as people think. Tech 2 armor repairers use more PG than the tech 1 and replacing one of the tech 2 repairers with the ancillary armor repairer will lower the PG used, anyway.

In a previous dual or triple repairer setup you can drop two regular armor repairers, then put in the ancillary armor repairer and the reactive armor hardener. Suddenly you free up a lot of PG, use less capacitor, and tank better than before. It can get even better when tanking less damage types with that RAH.

Edit: Deleted the part about the navy cap boosters. It appears that they will no longer use navy cap boosters. However, instead of 9 reps, it's nerfed down to 8. I suppose that's OK given that we have rigs that directly increase the repair amount and we can easily run other repairers in addition to the AAR.

I can't really comment on the overloading rig since it depends greatly on the layout of the active tank whether it will be better over the aux nano pump. That is, until the penalties take over.

One thing I don't like: Not reducing the base mass of a couple plates just because they're used more often is unnecessarily inconsistent to me. That said, it's nice that we get a skill that reduces the penalty of all plates. In addition to improving maneuverability, it will also increase the MWD speed of plated ships a little.
Maximus Andendare
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#628 - 2013-01-23 18:59:57 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
A few updates:

We're switching the AAR to use nanite repair paste instead of cap boosters. What we're looking at now is for them to hold 8 reps worth of paste, with the smalls eating 1 per cycle, the mediums eating 5 and the larges eating 10.

I'm also investigating our options for reducing the base powergrid need for medium and large armor reps a bit.

We're aiming to have all of this on Sisi before the weekend. Please note that just because things are on Sisi doesn't mean they can no longer change. It just means we want to give people a chance to try it out in the game client.
thanks for the update.

Is the AAR still going to be limited to one per ship? Does that make any sense, given that you can have as many ASBs as you want fitted, and armor tanking needs more rappers anyway? Surely it'd make more sense to limit the ASB to one per ship, and remove the one-per-ship restriction from the AAR, considering that shield boosters can always be fitted to improve the amount.

Also, I didn't see the line in your update where you said you're rolling the mass reductions into the plates baseline and removing another unnecessary burdensome skill for armor tankers.

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PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#629 - 2013-01-23 19:01:34 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
A few updates:

We're switching the AAR to use nanite repair paste instead of cap boosters. What we're looking at now is for them to hold 8 reps worth of paste, with the smalls eating 1 per cycle, the mediums eating 5 and the larges eating 10.

I'm also investigating our options for reducing the base powergrid need for medium and large armor reps a bit.

We're aiming to have all of this on Sisi before the weekend. Please note that just because things are on Sisi doesn't mean they can no longer change. It just means we want to give people a chance to try it out in the game client.

Good call on all counts .. although the consumption rates are a bit low considering how much pew'ing power the AAR represents, could easily double or triple it with no objections from the handful of people in Eve who still armour tank in PvP.

Also, remember to get us info on the revised heating rig as soon feasible. Big smile
Zarnak Wulf
Amarrian Vengeance
#630 - 2013-01-23 19:02:11 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
A few updates:

We're switching the AAR to use nanite repair paste instead of cap boosters. What we're looking at now is for them to hold 8 reps worth of paste, with the smalls eating 1 per cycle, the mediums eating 5 and the larges eating 10.

I'm also investigating our options for reducing the base powergrid need for medium and large armor reps a bit.

We're aiming to have all of this on Sisi before the weekend. Please note that just because things are on Sisi doesn't mean they can no longer change. It just means we want to give people a chance to try it out in the game client.


I like it. Reducing the power cost of medium and large reppers should help with PG issues. Any thoughts or opinions on the rep per cycle of those same mediums and larges though?
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#631 - 2013-01-23 19:02:38 UTC
Apostrof Ahashion wrote:

AAR wont change anything, you will just swap one repairer for it. Not a single fit will change. And it 100% wont free you any slots, dont really understand what led you to that conclusion. It is just a straight, flat armor repair boost that will cost us incredibly boring cargohold management. And buffer&active tank combo is not really that good idea, dont get your hopes up.

MAAR = 1,68 * MAR2
That's not exactly twice, but considering fitting and slots (AAR should have fitting req of a T1 AR), you can really consider using one AAR instead of 2 AR. That would effectively free you one low slot.

The AAR work for 7 to 9 cycles. On a MAAR, that will be 63 to 81 seconds (std vs navy cap charges), which mean that you don't need more than that time of capacitor, because at the end, you will reload and don't need so many cap. Notice too that 81 seconds will often be the end of the fight. That mean you don't need this cap booster as much as with a standard active tank fit, or at least that a small one will be enough, saving you fitting space if not a med slot.

If you are not in that case, it's a sustained tank case. But even here, you will be 10 to 16% faster than before, just because of the rigs. That's not meaningless.

And finaly, the AAR on any ship is better than one rep on an incursus for example ; considering that 10%/lvl bonus was seen to be a solution to AR problem, I think we can consider AAR viable for almost any ship. That mean you can now actually tank your ship with an AAR and still sig/speed tank, because your speed is not killed anymore. That is game changing.

And plates being 25% lighter is not meaningless either : that's almost the difference between T2 and rolled tungsten plates. That is about half a second of align time, and the difference will be even larger with smaller plates. You are still heavier than a shield ship, but the difference will be between 25 and 32% lower. Agility matter too.

The question is more what do you, moaners, want armor tanking to be ? Shield need to still be viable after that.
Celly Smunt
Neutin Local LLC
#632 - 2013-01-23 19:05:24 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
A few updates:

We're switching the AAR to use nanite repair paste instead of cap boosters. What we're looking at now is for them to hold 8 reps worth of paste, with the smalls eating 1 per cycle, the mediums eating 5 and the larges eating 10.

I'm also investigating our options for reducing the base powergrid need for medium and large armor reps a bit.

We're aiming to have all of this on Sisi before the weekend. Please note that just because things are on Sisi doesn't mean they can no longer change. It just means we want to give people a chance to try it out in the game client.


good lookin out...

or if you're not into "hood" vernacular, good job listening to the folk's feedback. :P

I do think you should be prepared for the influx of ASB user's complaints about the volume difference between CBs and NP.

just a head's up...


but good job on the decision to switch to NP, it's much more practical imho for that repping armor.

o/
Celly

Don't mistake fact for arrogance, supposition for fact, or disagreement for dismissal. Perception is unique in that it can be shared or singular. Run with the pack if you wish, but think for yourself. A sandwich can be a great motivator.

Perihelion Olenard
#633 - 2013-01-23 19:09:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Perihelion Olenard
Celly Smunt wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
A few updates:

We're switching the AAR to use nanite repair paste instead of cap boosters. What we're looking at now is for them to hold 8 reps worth of paste, with the smalls eating 1 per cycle, the mediums eating 5 and the larges eating 10.

I'm also investigating our options for reducing the base powergrid need for medium and large armor reps a bit.

We're aiming to have all of this on Sisi before the weekend. Please note that just because things are on Sisi doesn't mean they can no longer change. It just means we want to give people a chance to try it out in the game client.


good lookin out...

or if you're not into "hood" vernacular, good job listening to the folk's feedback. :P

I do think you should be prepared for the influx of ASB user's complaints about the volume difference between CBs and NP.

just a head's up...


but good job on the decision to switch to NP, it's much more practical imho for that repping armor.

o/
Celly


I think it's fine that the ASB still uses tiny cap boosters as it's free to run. Armor needs that space for big boosters since their repair modules aren't free.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#634 - 2013-01-23 19:20:49 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
A few updates:

We're switching the AAR to use nanite repair paste instead of cap boosters. What we're looking at now is for them to hold 8 reps worth of paste, with the smalls eating 1 per cycle, the mediums eating 5 and the larges eating 10.

I'm also investigating our options for reducing the base powergrid need for medium and large armor reps a bit.

We're aiming to have all of this on Sisi before the weekend. Please note that just because things are on Sisi doesn't mean they can no longer change. It just means we want to give people a chance to try it out in the game client.

Now we just need better rep per cycle for medium and large reps

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.

elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
Brave Collective
#635 - 2013-01-23 19:30:27 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
A few updates:

We're switching the AAR to use nanite repair paste instead of cap boosters. What we're looking at now is for them to hold 8 reps worth of paste, with the smalls eating 1 per cycle, the mediums eating 5 and the larges eating 10.

I'm also investigating our options for reducing the base powergrid need for medium and large armor reps a bit.

We're aiming to have all of this on Sisi before the weekend. Please note that just because things are on Sisi doesn't mean they can no longer change. It just means we want to give people a chance to try it out in the game client.


Dear CCP Fozzie and Yitterbium,
did one of you by any chance took a look at my recent proposal?
And if yes, what do you think? I didn't want armor tankers to take over New Eden but I also would like to a larger Incursus some day Twisted

As for numbers, I'm glad I was able to catch up after being away for a day.

Anyway I like numbers, I hope you do too?

Right now our medium armor repair module I needs 150 powergrid and the tech2 one needs 175 powergrid, so don't we meet in the middle and say that AAR would need powergrid in a range of 155-165 powergrid and we would go a tiny bit lower on the tech1 and tech2 module in a range of let's say

Medium Armor Repairer I -> 130 powergrid and the
Medium Armir Repairer II -> 145 powergrid and maybe this summer we get some nicer numbers on the larger ones too?

Large Armor Repairer I -> 1600 powergrid (no battlecruiser or Tengu will be able to fit this anyway)
Large Armor Repairer II -> 1850 powergrid?

As with any information you read here, these are merely suggestions and I am not in charge of things!

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever

Perihelion Olenard
#636 - 2013-01-23 19:31:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Perihelion Olenard
Omnathious Deninard wrote:

Now we just need better rep per cycle for medium and large reps

Why? The AAR did enough.
CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#637 - 2013-01-23 19:32:03 UTC
elitatwo wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
A few updates:

We're switching the AAR to use nanite repair paste instead of cap boosters. What we're looking at now is for them to hold 8 reps worth of paste, with the smalls eating 1 per cycle, the mediums eating 5 and the larges eating 10.

I'm also investigating our options for reducing the base powergrid need for medium and large armor reps a bit.

We're aiming to have all of this on Sisi before the weekend. Please note that just because things are on Sisi doesn't mean they can no longer change. It just means we want to give people a chance to try it out in the game client.


Dear CCP Fozzie and Yitterbium,
did one of you by any chance took a look at my recent proposal?
And if yes, what do you think? I didn't want armor tankers to take over New Eden but I also would like to a larger Incursus some day Twisted

As for numbers, I'm glad I was able to catch up after being away for a day.

Anyway I like numbers, I hope you do too?

Right now our medium armor repair module I needs 150 powergrid and the tech2 one needs 175 powergrid, so don't we meet in the middle and say that AAR would need powergrid in a range of 155-165 powergrid and we would go a tiny bit lower on the tech1 and tech2 module in a range of let's say

Medium Armor Repairer I -> 130 powergrid and the
Medium Armir Repairer II -> 145 powergrid and maybe this summer we get some nicer numbers on the larger ones too?

Large Armor Repairer I -> 1600 powergrid (no battlecruiser or Tengu will be able to fit this anyway)
Large Armor Repairer II -> 1850 powergrid?

As with any information you read here, these are merely suggestions and I am not in charge of things!


Reducing medium and large armor rep cycle time is definitely an option, either for 1.1 or in a subsequent iteration.

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie

elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
Brave Collective
#638 - 2013-01-23 19:46:25 UTC
Thank you! That is all I wanted to know Big smile

Now I am getting on SiSi and take my Brutix and my Myrmidon out for an extended ride Twisted

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever

TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#639 - 2013-01-23 19:47:39 UTC
I don't really see why active tanking has to be more expensive than everything else, but w/e.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#640 - 2013-01-23 19:55:00 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
elitatwo wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
A few updates:

We're switching the AAR to use nanite repair paste instead of cap boosters. What we're looking at now is for them to hold 8 reps worth of paste, with the smalls eating 1 per cycle, the mediums eating 5 and the larges eating 10.

I'm also investigating our options for reducing the base powergrid need for medium and large armor reps a bit.

We're aiming to have all of this on Sisi before the weekend. Please note that just because things are on Sisi doesn't mean they can no longer change. It just means we want to give people a chance to try it out in the game client.


Dear CCP Fozzie and Yitterbium,
did one of you by any chance took a look at my recent proposal?
And if yes, what do you think? I didn't want armor tankers to take over New Eden but I also would like to a larger Incursus some day Twisted

As for numbers, I'm glad I was able to catch up after being away for a day.

Anyway I like numbers, I hope you do too?

Right now our medium armor repair module I needs 150 powergrid and the tech2 one needs 175 powergrid, so don't we meet in the middle and say that AAR would need powergrid in a range of 155-165 powergrid and we would go a tiny bit lower on the tech1 and tech2 module in a range of let's say

Medium Armor Repairer I -> 130 powergrid and the
Medium Armir Repairer II -> 145 powergrid and maybe this summer we get some nicer numbers on the larger ones too?

Large Armor Repairer I -> 1600 powergrid (no battlecruiser or Tengu will be able to fit this anyway)
Large Armor Repairer II -> 1850 powergrid?

As with any information you read here, these are merely suggestions and I am not in charge of things!


Reducing medium and large armor rep cycle time is definitely an option, either for 1.1 or in a subsequent iteration.

I personally feel that bigger rep amount would be better than a faster cycle time and it would keep armor and shields separate on functionality.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.