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High sec industrial corporations focus.
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Fey Ivory
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#61 - 2013-01-23 00:48:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Fey Ivory
Oki... though i think we could get something better, i strongly disagree that it should be based on ships, and let me reason with you all... high sec is a space within a huge cluster of worlds, those industries employ millions of people, its just beyond reason to me if combat ships fly into high security space and stop massive industrial productions... it be like a few pirates decided to sail up the river Temsen in England to blokade London... it wouldent be accepted, couse any nation cant take the hit in social unrest if suddenly Millions upon Millions suddenly cant work... and in this case, it wouldent be the royal navy or concord, it be Gallante regulare army that would blow you out ofthe sky if it were in Gallante space...

So how to fix this... well i said it earlier, everyone should be able to have a base production and base research capability, its part of the game, if you want to have more, you A build your own station and yoin the normal corporate wars... or B as i suggested earlier, you invest and buy options on the infrastructure that exist within the Eden industry research labs...

How do i fight this, well you fight it like anyone would do and have to do in a economy, you fight with money... you want to stop a corp well, then you risk your ISKs against their ISKs, exacly as a economy works...
Merouk Baas
#62 - 2013-01-23 02:44:16 UTC
The OP's ideas make sense to me, but trying to convince high-sec people is like Greeks and austerity measures.

They don't want to PVP; they don't want to undock, fleet up, and fight, but I'd bet they'd accept an updated form of "automated defenses" / POS shoot, if CCP upgrades high-sec POSes to be necessary AND to be defensible against typical high-sec war fleets without the need to have a defense fleet. Cause you're never going to get high-sec industrialists to fleet up and defend; they'll quit the game first.
Malcorian Vandsteidt
Alpha Trades
Solyaris Chtonium
#63 - 2013-01-23 05:20:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Malcorian Vandsteidt
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
Malcorian Vandsteidt wrote:

The only problem with this would be the large 0.0 Alliances taking over the highsec stations also. which I am 100% against.

I do keep thinking about this.

Null corps would have an interest, obviously.
However, I don't think we would be making a distinction of Null alliance or high sec alliance. It would really just be corporations. I think a little blurring of the lines would be good for the game.


Keep in mind.
High sec industry is already controlled by a single block.

I'm going with the idea that it's better that those blocks be player cors as apposed to NPC ones.
Even a null alliance controlling an industrial block in high sec would be better than the NPC ones, and the dyanmic of it could to points of contention in high sec that reverbate into null.

Agression itself could also be a limitting factor. Who wouldn't deck goons if we had a station in high sec. It could very well just be to much to manage on top of null sec.

We would obviously ally with a high sec corp in control of high sec systems, and we should, and already do.

Woudln't it be better to know what station goons are working out of in high sec, and be able to agress that station in a meaningful way, than to have us all in the NPC corps where you can't do anything?

We wouldn't be able to blob anyone in capitas and supers in high sec.


And frankly, high sec is to dull. It could use a little largescale warfare to liven things up. There are a ton of people who've never actually seen a few hundred ships fighting. They might be encouraged to participate if in corps that are actively trying to control a station in high sec if they jumped into a system and there happened to be a war actually happening.

You can't do that in null without getting blown up in the process.

It would be a better dynamic then the one that currently exists.



Considering the extra income and resurces gotten for free from tax on the station... Im a say ... NO. It would be a horrible idea for any 0.0 Alliance to EVER be able to controle even a single highsec station, you would never take it from them. EVER. Which means they would continually get isk and supplies from said station and system.

I know what I would do If I was goon and this was implemented.... I know EXACTLY what I would do. But then me and you all think a lot a like.


There's no way to really stop that from happening however. as the larger alliance would simply create a highsec allied alliance to manage them. And with the backing of 0.0 trillions of isk and players and ships, well.... there will no longer be a point to being a small alliance or corp, as you will never own anything in eve ever again. You will always be a servant to a larger master you can never escape.

Eve is not friendly to new players or small corps and alliances. For once I'd like to see something added which benefits them and not the larger corps and alliances. But CCP continually refuses to implement those types of changes to the game.
Malcorian Vandsteidt
Alpha Trades
Solyaris Chtonium
#64 - 2013-01-23 05:27:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Malcorian Vandsteidt
Merouk Baas wrote:
The OP's ideas make sense to me, but trying to convince high-sec people is like Greeks and austerity measures.

They don't want to PVP; they don't want to undock, fleet up, and fight, but I'd bet they'd accept an updated form of "automated defenses" / POS shoot, if CCP upgrades high-sec POSes to be necessary AND to be defensible against typical high-sec war fleets without the need to have a defense fleet. Cause you're never going to get high-sec industrialists to fleet up and defend; they'll quit the game first.


Honestly, Eve is about freedom of choice, and play how you like...

They shouldn't have to do something they don't want to. Eve is a place where every one, and any type of player can find something. You take this away, you destroy what Eve is, and it will die.

Eve is an Idea more then anything, And the only way to kill an idea, is to simply change it.
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#65 - 2013-01-23 14:49:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Natsett Amuinn
Malcorian Vandsteidt wrote:


Considering the extra income and resurces gotten for free from tax on the station... Im a say ... NO. It would be a horrible idea for any 0.0 Alliance to EVER be able to controle even a single highsec station, you would never take it from them. EVER. Which means they would continually get isk and supplies from said station and system.

I know what I would do If I was goon and this was implemented.... I know EXACTLY what I would do. But then me and you all think a lot a like.


There's no way to really stop that from happening however. as the larger alliance would simply create a highsec allied alliance to manage them. And with the backing of 0.0 trillions of isk and players and ships, well.... there will no longer be a point to being a small alliance or corp, as you will never own anything in eve ever again. You will always be a servant to a larger master you can never escape.

Eve is not friendly to new players or small corps and alliances. For once I'd like to see something added which benefits them and not the larger corps and alliances. But CCP continually refuses to implement those types of changes to the game.

I have been thinking about this.

It wouldn't be a problem, and here's why.

It's not a problem in null.

What it would do is give CORPORATIONS the ability to finance things like ship reimbursements in high sec to fund wars; just like null.

Nor does it have to ALL go to the corporation.
Say a corp takes a station, they set line frees to 1000 install 500 per hour. Lets say a job comes to a grand total of 30k, the corp can set the tax on a job to 10%.

They don't get the isk from the job run directly, but they can directly set the cost. They would only get a a percentage, the tax they set that cvan't be circumvented,

High concentration refining.
Corp upgrades the belt for non standard concentration ores, those ores are mined by an NPC corp guy who takes the ore to the player run station, and refines it.

The player run corporation sets a 10% tax on the rine rate. Regardless of the miners refine ability he will give the corporation 10% of all the minerals they mine, no isk involved, just mineral payment. This allows the corporation to control the flow of minerals within that system. Mineral prices start to drop, corporations start working together, either within or outside their alliance, and corporations agree to raise mineral refine tax throughout a region to incease mineral costs.

None of that would break or unbalance anything.
It would make high sec more dynamic, player driven, provide incentive to fight, give reason for wardecs, and provide a means for industrialis to poke other industrialsts in a way that is both meaningful and can have real impact.


PS Null sec is already allied with high sec groups. We're already working in high sec. The worry about null entering into high sec and having some kind of control is rather moot considering, it's already happening.

We're forced to gank though.

It would be ok for alliances to form between both high and null, there are vested interests going both ways due to material needs.

Moon materials make there way to high sec corporations that convert it to components, those high sec corps are working with null. You guys just don't see it,



The only issue that really concerns me is the corporate office.
But I feel that CCP can manage that one as well.

PPS: My writing is going to be pretty awful today. Nerves aren't letting my hands alone.
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#66 - 2013-01-23 15:02:37 UTC
Merouk Baas wrote:
The OP's ideas make sense to me, but trying to convince high-sec people is like Greeks and austerity measures.

They don't want to PVP; they don't want to undock, fleet up, and fight, but I'd bet they'd accept an updated form of "automated defenses" / POS shoot, if CCP upgrades high-sec POSes to be necessary AND to be defensible against typical high-sec war fleets without the need to have a defense fleet. Cause you're never going to get high-sec industrialists to fleet up and defend; they'll quit the game first.

i don't believe that though.

People won't undock in null, but no one complains, we just make fun of them. No one complains because it's well undrstood if you don't undock, you can't defend your system. You can't protect miners, raters, or anyone doing anything in your systems.

You especially can't keep the system if you don't undock.


Undocking is fine.
Not wanting to pvp is fine.
Forcing someone to undock and pvp is not fine.

Those people that don't want to engage in a fight won't ever take a station to begin with.
And that's fine as well.

And as long as they are able to do everything they were already doing, it won't really have any impact on them.
They won't quit, they'll just keep doing what they're already doing while the people that don't mind pvp are undocking to keep that station under their control.

Or better yet,
They recruited people into the corp, or they ally with corps, that do like to fight.

There are guys in null that do not do industry, they just like to PvP.
Then there's me, a dedicated industrialist who doesn't pvp. It works wonderfully, because they can go do the things they like while I sit around in a station constantly changing numbers around and staring at spreadsheets.

They get to do what they like to do, and I get to do what I like to do.
It's a wonderful system.
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#67 - 2013-01-23 15:22:28 UTC
There can also be sinks involved within the wardec system for the purpose of station flipping, and to help keep things organized.

Something like.

Corp A has station.

Corp B and C are both at war with A.

Station becomes available for "conquest".
Conquest timer starts.

Corp B and C enter an effective bidding war, that lasts the duration of the timer.
Timer ends and the corp with the best bid gets "rights" to the station, now the "fighting" begins.

Say corp B wins the bid,
The station is then available to be faught over by anyone at war with corp A, but corp B at the end of the fighting; should corp A lose, is granted ownership of the stations.

Corp C has a choice,
Assit corp B with the flipping of the station, or declare war on corp B and assist A in defending the station. Afterall, the enemy of my enemy is my friend and all.


Corp C doesn't lose any isk in the bid process, only corp B.
Now corp B is spending ISK on war, as well as paying for the right to lay claim to the station.


The bid process will influence non alliance member line and refine costs, as the corp B would need to account for what was paid out.

Stations would always have a minimum length of time that an owner can hold without anyone being able to take it. Let's say an arbitrary number like one week. The conquest bidders would need to be aware of what they're paying into the conquest of the station, and what they'll need to charge to recoup.


This way you don't run into a situation where corps in high sec are suddenly able to generate massive amounts of ISK over what they already were, just some. Obviously things would need a level of balancing.

And yes, it would indeed give advantages to "larger" groups with more ISK.
Nothing I"m asking for has anything to actually do with line level members. It's entirely a corporation level thing, and that means alliance.

Because EVE is a game about corporations and alliances. There's lots of stuff for the little guy to do already; grand, strategic, gameplay doesn't need to be something "everyone" has to take pat it. It's something that the guys RUNNING CORPORATIONS should have to play with, and build their corporations around.

As a line level member, my interst is not the governence of structures, but the ability to participate in something that can have an outcome that benefits me.
Sedstr
#68 - 2013-01-23 16:03:44 UTC
Theres a few million SPs related to NPC interactions. I'd like to see a refund...

...
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#69 - 2013-01-23 16:13:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Natsett Amuinn
Sedstr wrote:
Theres a few million SPs related to NPC interactions. I'd like to see a refund...


Why would you need a refund?

NPC's wouldn't go anywhere.

Refine rate skills can still be applied as well.

You also have standing with every single player run corporation in EVE, and just like the NPC's you're required to interact with them if you want to better that standing. The only real difference is you can't run missions to raise your standing with them, you have to work with them in a much more human way.

And EVE is a game built entirely around INTERACTING with other PLAYERS.

You would still have NPC's, you would still have missions.
In fact, you have all of 1-.8 with NPC stations, controlled by NPC corporations.

In all .7 and lower, you would have Player run stations, with NPC corporate offices.


Is there a particular skill you can point out.
Some of us literally do not play EVE to play with NPC's. You've got to be specific in order for me to consider a case scenerio.
Give me a skill, and I promise I can explain a way to account for that skill and player run stations.


PS: CCP can also make the entire PLAYER standing sytem much more dynamic. The ability to set specifically as you can now, as well as for there to be a means of passive ups and downs in player to player, player to corp, and corp to corp standing.

Things like allowing running missions in a player run station to improve standing with the corporation that runs the station, to improve your tax rate with them, just like NPC's.

Even buying in their market, in there station can apply a standing increase. The more you buy, the better your standing gets, the less you pay in tax to the corporation.

This would act as a motivator for the corporation running the station to continue running the station.
Buzzy Warstl
Quantum Flux Foundry
#70 - 2013-01-23 16:28:59 UTC
You know, this sounds like a job for modular POS, and sharply reduced NPC station industrial resources.

Especially if modular POS really end up being "anchor anywhere" (I assume that means a variation on the can anchoring rules, of course).

http://www.mud.co.uk/richard/hcds.htm Richard Bartle: Players who suit MUDs
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#71 - 2013-01-23 16:34:16 UTC
Buzzy Warstl wrote:
You know, this sounds like a job for modular POS, and sharply reduced NPC station industrial resources.

Especially if modular POS really end up being "anchor anywhere" (I assume that means a variation on the can anchoring rules, of course).

Someone gets it!

Then the CSM minutes came out.

So...

If modular PoS's are to much, do this. The structures already exist, it shouldn't be as difficult as creating structures that can be freely placed throughout the enviroment.

This stuff is already in the game, it just needs a little tweeking to apply to high sec.

And it would alleviate a lot of problems that people have with other game mechanics, as well as bring an incredible level of depth and player dynamic to EVE.
Malcorian Vandsteidt
Alpha Trades
Solyaris Chtonium
#72 - 2013-01-23 21:48:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Malcorian Vandsteidt
Natsett Amuinn wrote:

I have been thinking about this.


I know you've been thinking a lot about it. That's kind of my point.

Yes but the reason you don't control highsec is because you don't control the highsec systems themselves or the stations. And highsec is nothing like null if anything it would be EASIER for the null Alliances to simply blob in and take over. 0.0 has mechanics which highsec does not which balance it. Highsec is the way it is currently because there are no 1000 man Domination Alliances in highsec.

You allow stations to be taken and you'll have Goon, Test, Razor, and the others owning the entirety of the game. How the hell is a small corporation or alliance supposed to compete with that?

They can't. There only choice is to ally themselves with a larger Alliance, or pay "rent" in order to be able to aford the docking fees and taxes I KNOW the null Alliances would impose on the station just for that exact reason.

Your talking to a person who lead a group (in another game) Called the "Censored for Inappropriate Content" who used similar strategies to take over the entire game. (which caused the devs to change the entire game so it could never happen again.).

I know exactly how this would play out. Mainly because I've not only seen it, but lived it and lead it.

* Yes the null corps would fight in hihgsec as well as in 0.0, but eventually one of them would win, and system by system gain more and more wealth and resources until they were unstopabble.

As you said Highsec is where 80% of eves income is generated. An Alliance with that power and Economic income will not be beaten back. They will simply roll over everything in their path. Especially if the Alliance was Goon, which is not held together by in game things as it is an entire gaming Community with it's life thread based outside of the game world making it Immune to any strategy used to attempt to defeat them in game.

If Razor falls Goon will be the last Old Alliance still around. And even though Goon has been defeated on multiple occasions even disbanded on several it's populations is only grown because it is not an Eve Online Alliance, based In Eve. It is a large Community of 10's of 1000's or people based Outside of Eve. And therefore an Alliance which will never die and can never be defeated.

* Giving Goon this type of opportunity is exactly what you all want. I don't know your reasons for wanting it, but this is the only viable and strategic reason a military power Like Goon, with the reputation you all have could possibly desire such a function.

* Goon is not a "Good" Alliance, so to speak. "In my personal experience over the years" You all thrive on the pain and misery of others. I can not name a single "good" thing Goon has done for anyone (except the noobs they let into their alliance), But I can name an entire book of negative things Goon has constructed, lead and or been a part of.

I mean you all fire on your own allies simply for the lol of it. You consistently pay mercenary corps and Alliances to wardec PvE and industrial corps in high sec (While the entire time bemoaning the downfall of the industrialist and their highsec losses), You boycott entire Material products In the game and exploit those too stupid to realize what your doing to them. You suggest policies in such a way that to the dumb and uninitiated it looks like a great idea, but to the other snakes in Eve looks like exactly what it is, another Grab for power. You play in the shadows, you lie, cheat, and you steal, your words of peace and helpfulness are simply to placate your victim until you can stab them in the back on the first Opportunity that is available to you.

The last thing you all would ever do is suggest something harmless and selfless. If Razor was Suggesting this I could see this as being meant as Harmless, Razor is known for it's deeds, just as Goon is.

You want support for things like this? Try telling your Alliance they need to be more symbiotic, and less Parasitic.


Disclaimer:

Despite the above, this is Eve, and Eve should be played how those who play it best feel they should. I have no real animosity toward Goon or any other Alliance out their for these types of actions as I myself have done them on numerous occasions, however this does not mean that I am not going to point out something which I believe (After thinking it over) would ruin the game.

The only way to accomplish what is being suggested in this thread without the setbacks is to implement the system I first suggested here as it is neutral and bennefits no one except highsec player corps in general:

Quote:
I agree with this, and in leu of such propose the following restrictions to NPC corps concerning Industry:

If you are in an NPC corp you can NOT:

1. Use the research Lab Functions in stations (Copy, PE,ME, etc..) Period. (unless doing the Tutorials)
2. Use the Factories to produce ships of a Higher level then a "T-1" Battlecruiseror T-1 Mod or Ammo. (No BS's or T-3's, and No T-2 Ships (Or Items) at all.)
3. Restrict Per day how much Ore can be refined.

What you CAN do in an NPC corp:

1. Mine to your hearts content
2. Refine a limited amount per day sufficient to help a New player learn about the system and gain ISK for new ships. (Say 3 - 5 Million M3 per day)
3. Produce all T-1 modules and Ships up to BC.
4. Do Planetary Interaction. (unlimitedly)


What you can do in a Player Corp:

1. Everything unlimited.
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#73 - 2013-01-23 22:14:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Natsett Amuinn
You can not have capital combat ships in high sec.

You can only have so many people in a single high sec system.

A single high sec corp, USING THE CORPORATION TO IT'S POTENTIAL, can keep goons out of several high sec systems, all by themselves Smaller corporations can work with them, or band together against them.

Your are many in comparison to us.

High sec would have complete control over high sec.


You can build a single corporation into the thousands of members, you should already have "goonlike" high sec corps. You should have LOTS of them.

And those guys should be rewarded for using the wardec mechanics, by being given the tools to control the stations in .7 and below systems.


The larger the scale, the more people involved.
The more people invovled, the more interaction that occurs.
The more interaction that occurs, the more dynamic the world gets.
The more dynamic the world gets, the more pepople are able to have influence on the world around them.

I believe those four things to be absolute truths. If I was building a sandox, those four rules would be the core of my development philosophy.
Malcorian Vandsteidt
Alpha Trades
Solyaris Chtonium
#74 - 2013-01-23 22:32:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Malcorian Vandsteidt
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
You can not have capital combat ships in high sec.

You can only have so many people in a single high sec system.

A single high sec corp, USING THE CORPORATION TO IT'S POTENTIAL, can keep goons out of several high sec systems, all by themselves Smaller corporations can work with them, or band together against them.

Your are many in comparison to us.

High sec would have complete control over high sec.


You can build a single corporation into the thousands of members, you should already have "goonlike" high sec corps. You should have LOTS of them.

And those guys should be rewarded for using the wardec mechanics, by being given the tools to control the stations in .7 and below systems.


The larger the scale, the more people involved.
The more people invovled, the more interaction that occurs.
The more interaction that occurs, the more dynamic the world gets.
The more dynamic the world gets, the more pepople are able to have influence on the world around them.

I believe those four things to be absolute truths. If I was building a sandox, those four rules would be the core of my development philosophy.


Dude..

* Goon took over Jita for a full week and killed anyone who came into the system while still maintaining their 0.0.

* Goon also took over the entirety of Galentian Space for about 3 months and killed every industrial who entered Galente space.

I know exactly what Goon is capable of and unlike many of the duckboards who play I do not underestimate you all. I'm the last person you want to have this debate with. As I can list example after example of how your feasible defenses for why this is a good Idea is really only a Good Idea for "GoonSwarm".


On your points:

1. The larger the scale of what? Wardecs? Griefing? Yea if you want to kill off the highsec population I suppose this is a good idea... Which seems counterproductive to your Original Idea....

2. Unless those people are so powerful it's pointless to fight them, in which case people simply give up and quit playing. (Also counterproductive)

3. Interaction has nothing to do with "world dynamics". Interaction is Player dynamics, and honestly like I said above if the interaction is "Negative" or "Oppressive" Then no, people are simply going to quit the game.

* World dynamics would be changing Fuel block components or putting Ice in wormholes or 0.0 Systems with Concord.

4. You and I both know in reality, The only people who have influence on the world around them in Eve are those with power and economic ability.

5. What you forget to mention is that the only corps which will be able to own said stations are those which can fleet Massive pvp armies. which is not a lot in highsec. So yea 0.0 alliances would have no problems swooping in and taking any station they wanted.
Fey Ivory
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#75 - 2013-01-23 23:13:09 UTC
Nat...

i dont understand what you have against the system im proposing, it is more realistic and it keeps high sec in the hand of the representinve coporations and countries, ewen if as said you make trillions, its still if im nice only maybe 0.1% of the combined economy of Gallante, and thats the thing you cant take ower Highsec, you cant control its economy ITS impossible, a few hundred PEOPLE cant compete with the combined work force of a thosend worlds... but what you could do is target your ISKs against to buy up rights in certain areas, but you cant control it all...

Take me as an example, im part of CAS, CAS is a cooporation belonging to Gallante Federation, its like Rhoden, or any other of Gallantes corps, this said i know big corps can affect you with economy, and since PVP is out of the option, there need to be a system where you can fight back with economy upon those that target you and your friends, action and consequence... so make a economic system...
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#76 - 2013-01-24 00:55:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Natsett Amuinn
Malcorian Vandsteidt wrote:


Dude..

* Goon took over Jita for a full week and killed anyone who came into the system while still maintaining their 0.0.

* Goon also took over the entirety of Galentian Space for about 3 months and killed every industrial who entered Galente space.

I know exactly what Goon is capable of and unlike many of the duckboards who play I do not underestimate you all. I'm the last person you want to have this debate with. As I can list example after example of how your feasible defenses for why this is a good Idea is really only a Good Idea for "GoonSwarm".

Burn jita isn't sustainable, and considers that as disruptive gameplay. It was a "staged event", planned well in advance. You can't do that daily, CCP doesn't permit it.

I'm not familliar with the Galente take over. I'm sure you mean that there was an effort to prevent people from entering Gallente space, and not really "take over" I don't think there's even anough people in all of the CFC to take over all of gellente space by ganking, and I"m sure that CCP would have a problem if we did.

The number of high sec characters numbers into the hundreds of thousands, null is only in the 10's I believe.
Systems cap at around 2000 pilots, and CCP can set TiDi to act as a kind of crowd control measure to keep keep the numbers down, and to "even out " fights.

If you can only engage in 500vs500 in a high sec system, the only advantage that a larger group gains is the ability to ATTEPT to take more than one system at a time.

There's no titan briding in high sec.
No bubbles.
No bombs.
High sec warfare would look drastically different from null sec warfare. A lot of the things you can't do in high sec that you can in null will go a long way to help "equalize" conflicts.

Quote:

On your points:

1. The larger the scale of what? Wardecs? Griefing? Yea if you want to kill off the highsec population I suppose this is a good idea... Which seems counterproductive to your Original Idea....

2. Unless those people are so powerful it's pointless to fight them, in which case people simply give up and quit playing. (Also counterproductive)

1) Larger than the individual. Corporations can be made of thousands of individuals. The more corporations you get interacting with each other, the more people you get interacting with each other.

2) The above.
Quote:

3. Interaction has nothing to do with "world dynamics". Interaction is Player dynamics, and honestly like I said above if the interaction is "Negative" or "Oppressive" Then no, people are simply going to quit the game.

* World dynamics would be changing Fuel block components or putting Ice in wormholes or 0.0 Systems with Concord.

Interactioin has everything to do with world dynamics.
Null sec is an entirely player, and is built on player interaction. It's responsible for shaping 100% of the world dynamic in null sec.

*those are mechanics.
Quote:

4. You and I both know in reality, The only people who have influence on the world around them in Eve are those with power and economic ability.

Exactly, that's why I want high sec corporations to have control over all T2 procution, through the ability to tax people for producing and refining, a well as control the flow of T2 products out of a station through setting the overal number of production lines available, in a station they own in high sec.

It doesn't have to be an existing station, it can be entirely new stations. The existing stations can just have the ability to produce T2 goods removed, as well as the ability to refine higher concentration ores.
Quote:

5. What you forget to mention is that the only corps which will be able to own said stations are those which can fleet Massive pvp armies. which is not a lot in highsec. So yea 0.0 alliances would have no problems swooping in and taking any station they wanted.

Because you have no reason to grow in high sec. Null sec corps grow because there are things to own that are worth holding onto. Without that dynamic in high sec, high sec corps don't need to grow.

A high sec corp that basically everyone knows about, and that is pretty large, is EVE Uni.
Name me a second large high sec corp, how about a third?
Name a single high sec alliance.


Name 10 null sec corporations.
Now name 3 null sec alliances.


Think about how many systems there are in the .7-.5 range. One station to each system is far more than even the entire CFC could ever manage, we have an entire empire in null sec that can't simply be ignored to devote all our time to holding a bunch of high sec station. It just woudln't be feasible.
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#77 - 2013-01-24 01:05:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Natsett Amuinn
Fey Ivory wrote:
Nat...

i dont understand what you have against the system im proposing, it is more realistic and it keeps high sec in the hand of the representinve coporations and countries, ewen if as said you make trillions, its still if im nice only maybe 0.1% of the combined economy of Gallante, and thats the thing you cant take ower Highsec, you cant control its economy ITS impossible, a few hundred PEOPLE cant compete with the combined work force of a thosend worlds... but what you could do is target your ISKs against to buy up rights in certain areas, but you cant control it all...

Take me as an example, im part of CAS, CAS is a cooporation belonging to Gallante Federation, its like Rhoden, or any other of Gallantes corps, this said i know big corps can affect you with economy, and since PVP is out of the option, there need to be a system where you can fight back with economy upon those that target you and your friends, action and consequence... so make a economic system...

It doesn't really give high sec corps a reason to grow or provide a meaningful reason to go to war.

The war needs to be incentivised at both the line member level and the corporate level.

To put it extremely simply.
It doesn't allow me to look into a region of high sec, see what's happening there, and bounty the appropriate corporations that I feel are having an impact on my ability to produce.

Untl T2 production is put in the hand of high sec corporations, and high sec corporations have a reason to grow and fight in a war, putting a bounty on a high sec corporation is as meaningful to the individual industrialist as a wardec is on the industrial corp.

I have the financial means to put the bounty system to good use in high sec. I should be allowed to.
In exchange for that I think you should have condierably more control in high sec.

I personally think that's an incredibly fair deal. You could make more isk with a station under your control, while I"m spending mine to convince you to move or raise you production and tax rate.
Malcorian Vandsteidt
Alpha Trades
Solyaris Chtonium
#78 - 2013-01-24 01:22:06 UTC
Fey Ivory wrote:
Nat...

i dont understand what you have against the system im proposing, it is more realistic and it keeps high sec in the hand of the representinve coporations and countries, ewen if as said you make trillions, its still if im nice only maybe 0.1% of the combined economy of Gallante, and thats the thing you cant take ower Highsec, you cant control its economy ITS impossible, a few hundred PEOPLE cant compete with the combined work force of a thosend worlds... but what you could do is target your ISKs against to buy up rights in certain areas, but you cant control it all...

Take me as an example, im part of CAS, CAS is a cooporation belonging to Gallante Federation, its like Rhoden, or any other of Gallantes corps, this said i know big corps can affect you with economy, and since PVP is out of the option, there need to be a system where you can fight back with economy upon those that target you and your friends, action and consequence... so make a economic system...


Hes not interested in discussing any system except the one which allows Goonsawnm to take over highsec and tax it's players forcing them into Null or low sec, or to join as a salve or pet alliances, and thus giving Goonswarm control over the largest Industrial and economical Asset in Eve.

Goon tried this with Galente space when they Boycotted Industry in that Races Empire. What Nat is proposing is legal takeover and reconcilidation of assets from the hands of the NPC corps into the hands of Nullsec Alliances and "Goonswarm" who have the backing , people, and ability to take over and control all of highsec if given the opportunity.
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#79 - 2013-01-24 01:37:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Natsett Amuinn
Malcorian,

I don't beleive another goonwaffe member has posted in this thread.

I didn't even link it to the GSF or SA forums.

It has nothing to do with "goons". In fact, I'm pretty sure that most of my goons wouldn't support this.


You're fixated on the corporation I'm a member of, and which has no actual bearing on anything I've written here.
Everything I wtire is entirely my own opinion.

It's actually really insulting.
I consider myself a pretty inellligent guy, I think I've learned a lot in 36 years. I'm most certainly not the follower type.
You're impling I'm a brainless drone incapable of indipendent though and only doing as my null overlords command of me.

Take the ignorance and douchebagery to GD.

Or stick around and act like an adult capable of a civil and intelligent conversation.
Don't get upset that I won't change my opinion, I didn't start the thread specifically in this forum because I wan't sure of aything. I've put a great deal of thought into into, and not once was "goons" a consideration.


I genuenly want high sec player run corporations to have control of stations FOR THEMSELVES. Because I genuanly believe that you guys that put together high sec corps get **** on by the wardec mechanics, entirely because you have nothing of value to fight for.

It just so happens that I can see a benefit for ME as an INDIVIDUAL industrialist that works out of null, in high sec having control of the stations.

It has nothing at all to do with being a goon.


I apologize if you feel that the converation is a little one sided. I did start the thread to express this view and opinion, not have my mind changed; so I'm going to use it for that.
Malcorian Vandsteidt
Alpha Trades
Solyaris Chtonium
#80 - 2013-01-24 01:48:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Malcorian Vandsteidt
Alright then, simply talking to you as an individual, not a Goon member, although I will mention Goon Not because its your alliance but because they are a relevant example.

1. Nope CCP had no problem at All as I was the one to petition action against them by CCP. They stated Goon was within their rights to Force stop all Industrial actioin in galente space because Eve is a sandbox, and suicide ganking, merc work, etc is part of Eve. (Even though CCP lost 1000's of subs over the issue).

2. Yes highsec warfare would be different the 0.0 however there is only ever 45,000 to 50,000 people logged into traquility at any given time (sometimes only 20,000 or less). And 10,000 of those are Goonswarm, their Alliances, and their paid Mercenaries, their slave alliances and or their supporters.

You do the math on those odds. they arn't good fro anyone going up against you.

3. But you and I both know if this system went in place highsec corps would not be the corps who controlled the stations, it would be nullsec alliances or pvp corps who would tax the carebears to death.

Unless of course you are suggesting that the station be placed in the hands of Industrial player corps ONLY, and then never be taken from then UNLESS the corp becomes inactive etc.Because unless you protect the carebears from losing their stations in some manner the only station owners in highsec will be Griefers and pvp alliances. Or Nullsec Alliances (which is more probable)

4. Alright.. I'll go with a corp being able to deploy an outpost in highsec and lowsec, Im all for that.

5. Null sec corps grow because they are fostered by a larger alliance. Every major Allaince in Eve since 2004 has been atr some point a smaller Slave, pet, or Fostered Alliance of some supper power.

Small Alliances no longer ever grow to be large dominators if by themselves, the larger alliances eat them first. Or Goon puts a spy in their alliance and disbands it, or takes it over through deception and betrayal.

6. Yea and look at nullsec, It's nothing to be proud of, just a bunch of huge alliance blobbing each other while at the same time making damn sure the smaller corps and allainces interested in Null CANT function and die.

I'm really not interested in Highsec being anything like that.. so I'll pass.

7. There's lots of reasons to grow in highsec and many Alliances do. They simply don't move to 0.0 because they know they'll get ROFL stomped as soon as they put down a Pos.

High sec Alliances:

Chains of chaos
Grievence
NOIR
Blackwater
Paradox Initiative (Used to be large is currently.. rebuilding, wasn't much left after Goonswarm got done with it)

I could name 100 more if I wanted.

The Main 0.0 Alliances?

Test
Goon
Razor
CVA
Claimed
Unclaimed

Could probably name 100 more of those also.



8. Of course it would be Feasible. The Industrial and economical worth alone makes it a prime and juicy target. And as you stated before no caps means its easier to defend especially against a bunch of HIghsec industrial carebears who only want to mine a build **** without being harassed. (Which most of highsec is PVE'ers and Industrialist, not much of a threat to a 10,000 man PvP alliance.)