Player Features and Ideas Discussion

It won't be a problem as most ships won't use AAR in current fit anyway. It is still inferior to shield/buffer tanking. I bet that AAR will found its use in plex running as reserve module to help tanking new NPC respawn while you are reducing incoming dps to manageable level.

No one is saying that it should consume cans full of the stuff, SAAR could perhaps load 100 and use up 25 per cycle, MAAR loads +50% and LAAR another +50%, at 20k per unit that is 2M per reload for frigs, 3M for cruisers/BCs and 4.5M for BS which is well within reason considering that it is used on a PvP god-tank.

There are loads of numbers to tweak, if it goes south (which is will, because this is Eve ), then CCP can manipulate market value by changing the relevant PI numbers

Because being able to tank 500 dps in a sacrilige without sacrificing any mobility isn't good for soloing at all..



The AAR as it is currently proposed (while i dont' really like the whole adding a new module thing) isn't bad. With it you will be able to fit a significant tank on an armor ship and still move fast enough to catch shield kiters. Brutix will be pretty epic.

So, time to rattle the cage.

The common theme in this thread is that some how 'Armor tanking' sucks. Given the agility, speed and signature bonuses incoming, that is one problem often stated, but this is being reduced dramatically in these changes and armor still has a much reduced signature and the mid slots to be able to do something about being slower.

There is this perception that active Armor tanking is inferior to shield tanking in terms of raw numbers, and that simply isn't true. There 'is' an issue of scalability, where I think shield tanking wins the more ISK you spend on it, but most players will never get that far or risk that much, certainly not solo.

And still - shield tanking takes a big big hit in the midslots, reducing functionality that benefits solo armor players, that shield fits simply can't manage.

One of the best ships in the game for Shield Tanking, is the Rokh. Many consider it to be a demon.

But lets compare it to the Hyperion.

A well fit tripple rep Hyperion - with a +3 pwg implant to fit, reaches 1332 peak hp a second tank. Its capacitor, and this fit can fit two cap boosters in the mid slots, can run technically for 41 minutes cap stable. Now naturally this doesn't happen because of the cargo hold limitations - but the Hyperion has a larger cargo hold than the Rokh to compensate. Overall it will run its tank for far longer, and has the option of not using all three repairs all the time.

The Hyperion has the ability to fit propulsion mods, including the new Micro Jump, a Web, and a Point.

The Rokh cannot do that. There is only room for one point - no propulsion or web.

Here are the Rokh's numbers:

Peak HP tank is 965.

Its capacitor lasts a whole 2 minute 16 seconds.

Heck, if anything I could argue that if anything, shield boosters should have a capacitor usage reduction. The Rokh has a smaller cargo hold to boot.

Now, you can't argue with the numbers here, the Hyperion can tank 400 more dps before any sort of drug boosters.

Now, the Rokh pilot can start getting fancy. Lets say we decide to spend half a billion isk on the low-grade crystal implants.

You'd think this would help, and it does, and it something the Hyperion pilot can't do.

This take the numbers to 1272 on the Rokh tank. Still not as good. We just spent 500m and its still no where near as good.

The Rokh can overload better, and for longer, but this takes the tank up to 1800 hp a second for around one to two minutes depending how lucky you are.

The Hyperion can overload as well, and reach 1656 hp a second. Not bad, but for a little less time.

But consider it has more capacitor potential, it will certainly have better odds on the field. The DPS is less on the Hyperion, and that is also a factor. The Rokh can reach further, but can't hit anything like as well without the web module fighting against smaller ships.

Overall, I would say, there is a balance here. And while this is a specific example, you can look at many fits from the Incursus, Thorax and Myrmiddon, and draw a similar set of results.

With the agility, mass and rig changes, Armor pilots can not really complain now. There are far more fitting options and choices compared to Shield pilots, with several different module choices, without the real pain of losing midslots, that makes for some hard choices when using Caldari and Minmitar ships.

If you want further proof that being Armor isn't all that bad, Armor doesn't have a Dread Guristas faction invul that costs 440m ISK to buy. Armor has seven faction module suppliers, reducing prices on faction modules by massive margins. Shield tanking faction suppliers - only has three - and one of those is typically worse than T2 and just there for fitting.

Allow me to simply and plainly ask you this question:

Do you, yourself, on ANY of your toons, consistently or with any frequency actually fly any active armor tanked ships?

If answer is no, you have just show in that alone that you are one of the reasons that armor tanking needs a buff.

Next, please link the fits that you gave us these numbers with, as spewing numbers is something anyone can do.
Either way, that argument will be moot.


The point is, I fly active armor with a large number of ships, with and without implants or boosts. I fly them with great frequency as well.
I do it so often I invested 4billion isk into a single hull for active armor tanking!
I can tell you, these buffs are in a ******* dire ass need, and much more is needed to bring active armor tanking on par with shields.


Try comparing a Hyperion to a Maelstrom. Honestly, go ahead.
A rack of Electrons on a Hyper is probably the most crippling thing you can do to a battleship. It's like cutting the legs off a kitten.

You sir, are delusioned. Fly the ships, in EvE, in real time, against real opponents.
Then come back here, I'll have a tissue box for just you when you get back.

If you honestly think that armor tanking is on par with shield tanking then you have not assessed the situation correctly.

Hey Fozzie, call me a prick man, but it seems like you are putting an awful lot of work and thought into something that really isn't going to do all the much to the landscape of pvp once its out there, except maybe give old bittervets something new to train.

Resists and buffer tanking with remote reps are still going to be the name of the game when it comes to armor. None of these mods, bonus's or skills show any sign of being any sort of improvement over the status quo, which is, fit oversized ASB, receive killmails. Or just fit shield buffer and nano out the lows all day long.

I know you are catching a lot of flack on here for trying to make things better for the poor armor tankers but it really does seem from all your updates that these modules are not going to be worth much of anything because they offer no visible improvement over what already exists.

Giving out lots of resist bonus's to every race but gallente, and then socking the gallente with an admittedly measly rep bonus is kinda sad to see as well to be honest. Add in that its possible to fit over sized shield mods and not be able to do that with armor mods and you really have begun to make a recipe for a pretty profound nerf of the gallente race again.

Cage rattled then. Good.

I think Armor needed to be faster, more agile. It's got that and more to boot with these changes. I have already said thats good news. What shield tanking gets, it loses in mid slots. Functionality cannot be ignored, and having more mid slots opens up a lot of options for armor tankers.

You have 1 or 2 Normal Reps + AAR fitted.

You need Cap Boosters to have your reps running plus additional cap boosters to have the AAR running, that's just plain ********. Different sized Cap Boosters & huge need for Cap will make you run out of cap really really soon.

Making the AAR run with Nanite Repair Paste would make it still an expensive thing to do but at least it wouldn't cripple you completely.

Edit: Also why make the rigs increase PG need? Electron Blasters are horrible.

Fozzie, you did a great job on AAR. Maybe it is more logical to use nanite paste instead of cap booster, maybe it is better if it will consume charges only in overheating mode instead of heat generation but those are minor tweaks. Rig changes are good to even if inconsistent with bonuses for other rigs. Maybe it is better to have separate pass on rig balancing for all rigs at once?

But there is a problem. AAR is interesting module and it have its strong and weak sides if we will compare it to usual AR but the problem is that AAR is more or less on same "power level" as usual AR and it will be its doom. It is not worth usually to active armor tank and new module won't change anything. You need to boost to armor active tanking as a whole, especially MAR and LAR are lacking. They have crazy PG requirements now. You need 4 times more PG to install single meta 4 LAR than meta 4 1600 Armor plate and it takes 5+ cycles of rep just to catch in hp.