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NPC AI hurting solo pvp.
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Roderick Grey
Koenigsbergers
#61 - 2013-01-22 18:53:24 UTC
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:


You don't need CCP to make rats help you killing raters, you need friends to help you kill the rater or provide you some reps.

There's no problem with those rats, those are fine.



Thank you for agreeing with me that the rat AI changes have affected my ability to solo pvp.

“We could learn a lot from crayons; some are sharp, some are pretty, some are dull, while others bright, some have weird names, but they all have learned to live together in the same box.” - Special needs division of Fcon.
Bydla
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#62 - 2013-01-22 23:54:21 UTC
Chandaris wrote:
No no no

you shouldn't be able to bust billion isk PVE t3's running 10/10's in a ****** t1 frig. If you can't hunt them down in a properly tanked ship, GTFO. Sansha hates everybody equally.



You can't kill a tengu in a tech 1, if it's not really dumb or afk. You can hunt them, get a point and wait for friends, maybe. But why in the name of god all the npcs switch to you? If a rifter is a bigger threat than you tengu, well.. gratz, every pvp newbie is better at EVE than your stupid tengu.

This is a thread about solo pvp/carebear killers saying that the npc is a little bit TOO crazy, and carebears saying it's ok, so they can hold against a good pvp ship and than say : LOL NOOB in local, of course.
And I'm pretty sure every damn carebear is mad at npc changes too, because of different triggers/problem with tank,gank ships in fleet etc.
Juan Thang
Optimistic Wasteland Inc.
Fraternity.
#63 - 2013-01-23 01:23:49 UTC
Bydla wrote:
[quote=Chandaris]And I'm pretty sure every damn carebear is mad at npc changes too, because of different triggers/problem with tank,gank ships in fleet etc.


Yes I am :P the tracking disruptor's are now so effective I cannot rat solo in a site with them in, I just cant field any DPS.
This is why I now rat with corp mates so that we can keep a constant steam of DPS no matter who is TD'd. I suggest PvPers who try to catch ratters do the same.
Roderick Grey
Koenigsbergers
#64 - 2013-01-23 03:32:57 UTC
Juan Thang wrote:
Bydla wrote:
[quote=Chandaris]And I'm pretty sure every damn carebear is mad at npc changes too, because of different triggers/problem with tank,gank ships in fleet etc.


Yes I am :P the tracking disruptor's are now so effective I cannot rat solo in a site with them in, I just cant field any DPS.
This is why I now rat with corp mates so that we can keep a constant steam of DPS no matter who is TD'd. I suggest PvPers who try to catch ratters do the same.


Thank you for agreeing with me that rat AI have affected my ability to solo pvp.

“We could learn a lot from crayons; some are sharp, some are pretty, some are dull, while others bright, some have weird names, but they all have learned to live together in the same box.” - Special needs division of Fcon.
Asuka Solo
I N E X T R E M I S
Tactical Narcotics Team
#65 - 2013-01-23 04:56:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Asuka Solo
Sheala de'Tancarville wrote:
Asuka Solo wrote:


You sit cloaked within tackle range and wait for him to clear the site so the rats don't grab you in the process. You grab him before he warps out seeing as you will see him "align" or take out the last rat.

Too much logic for you to compute it seems.


That tactic is viable only for ships that can warp in cloak. Unfortunately, those kind of ships either have not tank at all (bombers) or have **** dps (force recons, cloaky T3s).


Its not my fault you can't fit ships or are too spacepoor to bring the right tools for the right job.

T3s can easily push 450-500 DPS with cov ops cloak and a huge (80-120k EHP) buffer tank. Thats your cue to bring logi support and some broskies for added dps/tackle. And these guys sit on a gate nextdoor waiting for word the target is tackled.

No broskies? No Cloaky tackle with "patients" or "tactical awareness" while your trying to take on a player surrounded by a blob of rats in the hope he's too preoccupied trying to survive the fight you clearly can't?

Working as intended.

Now go cry some more.

Sheala de'Tancarville wrote:


From my perspective solution is quite simple - if I don't attack rats and I'm not helping someone who's attacking rats (i.e. logi ships), then rats leave me alone. Unless, I'm the only ship on the grid - then sure, rat can aggro.


If I were caught in an anom with a blob of rats that just switched to my attacker, I would attack the attacker and let the rats help me.

Your issue is you wan't free access to kill anyone in an open target environment without getting shot at on account of what you believe the situation should be... a static event that won't effect you at all.

As far as I'm concerned, if a rat wants to take a shot at you for showing up at the wrong place at the wrong time (much like a gate camp), you were a fool for warping in there as you did.

Given the nature of your responses, its most likely some t1 cruiser or lesser ship with no backup, or a useless battleship that has limits in terms of what it can and cannot engage by itself, with zero tank to guard against the rat blob.

Again, it boils down to your fail choices that are now manifesting as a forum whine about a mechanic that makes you think for your kill, not just blob for a kill.

Eve is about Capital ships, WiS, Boobs, PI and Isk!
Roderick Grey
Koenigsbergers
#66 - 2013-01-23 05:21:03 UTC
Asuka Solo wrote:
Sheala de'Tancarville wrote:
Asuka Solo wrote:


You sit cloaked within tackle range and wait for him to clear the site so the rats don't grab you in the process. You grab him before he warps out seeing as you will see him "align" or take out the last rat.

Too much logic for you to compute it seems.


That tactic is viable only for ships that can warp in cloak. Unfortunately, those kind of ships either have not tank at all (bombers) or have **** dps (force recons, cloaky T3s).


Its not my fault you can't fit ships or are too spacepoor to bring the right tools for the right job.

T3s can easily push 450-500 DPS with cov ops cloak and a huge (80-120k EHP) buffer tank. Thats your cue to bring logi support and some broskies for added dps/tackle. And these guys sit on a gate nextdoor waiting for word the target is tackled.

No broskies? No Cloaky tackle with "patients" or "tactical awareness" while your trying to take on a player surrounded by a blob of rats in the hope he's too preoccupied trying to survive the fight you clearly can't?

Working as intended.

Now go cry some more.


Can you please link your t3 fit?

“We could learn a lot from crayons; some are sharp, some are pretty, some are dull, while others bright, some have weird names, but they all have learned to live together in the same box.” - Special needs division of Fcon.
seth Hendar
I love you miners
#67 - 2013-01-23 09:13:15 UTC
Chandaris wrote:
No no no

you shouldn't be able to bust billion isk PVE t3's running 10/10's in a ****** t1 frig. If you can't hunt them down in a properly tanked ship, GTFO. Sansha hates everybody equally.

and yet, you can bust a 2-3B pve strat solo with a pilgrim / curse (a 200M ship)
seth Hendar
I love you miners
#68 - 2013-01-23 09:15:41 UTC
Bydla wrote:
Chandaris wrote:
No no no

you shouldn't be able to bust billion isk PVE t3's running 10/10's in a ****** t1 frig. If you can't hunt them down in a properly tanked ship, GTFO. Sansha hates everybody equally.



You can't kill a tengu in a tech 1, if it's not really dumb or afk. You can hunt them, get a point and wait for friends, maybe. But why in the name of god all the npcs switch to you? If a rifter is a bigger threat than you tengu, well.. gratz, every pvp newbie is better at EVE than your stupid tengu.

This is a thread about solo pvp/carebear killers saying that the npc is a little bit TOO crazy, and carebears saying it's ok, so they can hold against a good pvp ship and than say : LOL NOOB in local, of course.
And I'm pretty sure every damn carebear is mad at npc changes too, because of different triggers/problem with tank,gank ships in fleet etc.

yes you can, neut myrm, neut domi, you will **** an active tanked strat easy

pve strat rely on cap for tanking, so yes, as long as it can cycle his reps, you won't even scratch it, but when it's capped out, well, that's when you realize this is finally just a cruiser
seth Hendar
I love you miners
#69 - 2013-01-23 09:24:48 UTC
Asuka Solo wrote:
Sheala de'Tancarville wrote:
Asuka Solo wrote:


You sit cloaked within tackle range and wait for him to clear the site so the rats don't grab you in the process. You grab him before he warps out seeing as you will see him "align" or take out the last rat.

Too much logic for you to compute it seems.


That tactic is viable only for ships that can warp in cloak. Unfortunately, those kind of ships either have not tank at all (bombers) or have **** dps (force recons, cloaky T3s).


Its not my fault you can't fit ships or are too spacepoor to bring the right tools for the right job.

T3s can easily push 450-500 DPS with cov ops cloak and a huge (80-120k EHP) buffer tank. Thats your cue to bring logi support and some broskies for added dps/tackle. And these guys sit on a gate nextdoor waiting for word the target is tackled.

No broskies? No Cloaky tackle with "patients" or "tactical awareness" while your trying to take on a player surrounded by a blob of rats in the hope he's too preoccupied trying to survive the fight you clearly can't?

Working as intended.

Now go cry some more.

Sheala de'Tancarville wrote:


From my perspective solution is quite simple - if I don't attack rats and I'm not helping someone who's attacking rats (i.e. logi ships), then rats leave me alone. Unless, I'm the only ship on the grid - then sure, rat can aggro.


If I were caught in an anom with a blob of rats that just switched to my attacker, I would attack the attacker and let the rats help me.

Your issue is you wan't free access to kill anyone in an open target environment without getting shot at on account of what you believe the situation should be... a static event that won't effect you at all.

As far as I'm concerned, if a rat wants to take a shot at you for showing up at the wrong place at the wrong time (much like a gate camp), you were a fool for warping in there as you did.

Given the nature of your responses, its most likely some t1 cruiser or lesser ship with no backup, or a useless battleship that has limits in terms of what it can and cannot engage by itself, with zero tank to guard against the rat blob.

Again, it boils down to your fail choices that are now manifesting as a forum whine about a mechanic that makes you think for your kill, not just blob for a kill.

i agree that the rats shall have the possibility to shoot everyone on field.

but the issue here, as i have described earlier, and wich affect both fleet pve and pvp, is that the last ship to appears on grid is the one taking full aggro, regardless of the threat it represent to the rats (this is why gankers get full aggro each time, they are the last to appear on field)

shall the gankers get part of the aggro? definitely yes

but the current situation is just wrong as the aggro mechanic is not working as intended, it is supposed to be smart, and respond to the threat posed to the rats, but ATM, it just aggro the last thing, be it a rifter, even if there are 3 machariel killing them on field they WILL switch
Ueberlisk
The Hatchery
RAZOR Alliance
#70 - 2013-01-23 12:14:21 UTC
Juan Thang wrote:
Ueberlisk wrote:
I'd like to add that nowdays it's impossible to go take down or harass carriers doing lvl 5s as solo player. The moment you land on grid, every npc on the field switches to you regardless of your ship type. Its one piece of this game that was really fun to do that is ruined by npc AI. Carebearetribution.


You arnt ment to do anything in level 5's solo stop whining


Yet you can easily grind lvl 5s solo. You used to be able to go gank the missioners(who are mostly in carriers) doing them lvl 5s solo. Maybe you never tried it or had the balls to do it but it was definitely possible. Now you need at least some support if you plan to do anything with subcaps. You mention other ways of catching those missioners but that only applies to null sec where you have other tools available. Only way to really catch them in low sec is to probe down their missions and hope they don't notice.

It's mostly not an issue and you can choose your "poison" for anything other than lvl 5s or highest DED sites where the damage is just untankable without specialized setup. It's just weird to me that npcs are basically protecting careless bears that are bad enough to get caught in the first place.
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#71 - 2013-01-23 13:06:49 UTC
Asuka Solo wrote:
Sheala de'Tancarville wrote:
Asuka Solo wrote:


You sit cloaked within tackle range and wait for him to clear the site so the rats don't grab you in the process. You grab him before he warps out seeing as you will see him "align" or take out the last rat.

Too much logic for you to compute it seems.


That tactic is viable only for ships that can warp in cloak. Unfortunately, those kind of ships either have not tank at all (bombers) or have **** dps (force recons, cloaky T3s).


Its not my fault you can't fit ships or are too spacepoor to bring the right tools for the right job.

T3s can easily push 450-500 DPS with cov ops cloak and a huge (80-120k EHP) buffer tank. Thats your cue to bring logi support and some broskies for added dps/tackle. And these guys sit on a gate nextdoor waiting for word the target is tackled.

.


T3s can easily push out 450-500 dps. Yes, easily, given that you are flying a proteus and don't want that tank you promised. Else, 300-400 is way more realistical given an avergae of cloaky t3s. with 300 dps you can't even kill a solo drake.

So try harder. Did you also know that cloaky t3s are usually jammed within a minute by the smallest ecm-drones?
Asuka Solo
I N E X T R E M I S
Tactical Narcotics Team
#72 - 2013-01-23 13:26:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Asuka Solo
Roderick Grey wrote:

Can you please link your t3 fit?


More tank than bite

More bite than tank

More tank than sanity

All with Gunnery implants.

There are tanking implants also....

Don't get me started on what your numbers will be if you bring friends in command ships with epic fleet boost along for the ride...

Eve is about Capital ships, WiS, Boobs, PI and Isk!
Asuka Solo
I N E X T R E M I S
Tactical Narcotics Team
#73 - 2013-01-23 13:28:55 UTC
Lloyd Roses wrote:


T3s can easily push out 450-500 dps. Yes, easily, given that you are flying a proteus and don't want that tank you promised. Else, 300-400 is way more realistical given an avergae of cloaky t3s. with 300 dps you can't even kill a solo drake.

So try harder.


I highly suggest you learn how to play with EFT..... Because the tank and the DPS are both possible in the same fit....

Eve is about Capital ships, WiS, Boobs, PI and Isk!
Asuka Solo
I N E X T R E M I S
Tactical Narcotics Team
#74 - 2013-01-23 14:19:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Asuka Solo
seth Hendar wrote:

but the current situation is just wrong as the aggro mechanic is not working as intended, it is supposed to be smart, and respond to the threat posed to the rats, but ATM, it just aggro the last thing, be it a rifter, even if there are 3 machariel killing them on field they WILL switch


I haven't noticed this tbh.

I'll keep a look out or go test it with some alts.

But I have walked away from sites with part of the agro and I have seen it switched to me and from me to some1 else in my gang while we take out the poor capsuleer who didn't have the required amount of situational awareness. So as far as my experience goes, it seems to be going smoothly. Admittedly, sometimes some of us just end up finishing the sites as well.

Eve is about Capital ships, WiS, Boobs, PI and Isk!
Roderick Grey
Koenigsbergers
#75 - 2013-01-23 15:04:22 UTC
Asuka Solo wrote:
Roderick Grey wrote:

Can you please link your t3 fit?


More tank than bite

More bite than tank

More tank than sanity

All with Gunnery implants.

There are tanking implants also....

Don't get me started on what your numbers will be if you bring friends in command ships with epic fleet boost along for the ride...


I'll get right on attacking Tengus with Thermal dps.

“We could learn a lot from crayons; some are sharp, some are pretty, some are dull, while others bright, some have weird names, but they all have learned to live together in the same box.” - Special needs division of Fcon.
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#76 - 2013-01-23 18:27:10 UTC
The biggest fail here is the ganking mindset of what Solo means. At least this guy appears to be using solo as just him and a few dozen NPC's, instead of the somewhat more common "soloist" + few dozen NPC's + Off Grid Boost Alt + xx alts.

I have noted that NPCs do like to switch to the new guy in droves when he first appears, until their next target cycle. I can see where this would be a problem for the carebear hunter.... and despite my extreme carebear nature, do sympathize a little. Not much, as you were hoping to catch a near defenseless ship under fire by multiple enemies at an even steeper disadvantage than the pve ship would normally have against you for an effortless and risk free kill mail, but some sympathy regardless.
Ueberlisk
The Hatchery
RAZOR Alliance
#77 - 2013-01-24 04:30:36 UTC
nothing like smashing defenseless bears.
Roderick Grey
Koenigsbergers
#78 - 2013-01-24 05:40:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Roderick Grey
Mike Voidstar wrote:
The biggest fail here is the ganking mindset of what Solo means. At least this guy appears to be using solo as just him and a few dozen NPC's, instead of the somewhat more common "soloist" + few dozen NPC's + Off Grid Boost Alt + xx alts.

I have noted that NPCs do like to switch to the new guy in droves when he first appears, until their next target cycle. I can see where this would be a problem for the carebear hunter.... and despite my extreme carebear nature, do sympathize a little. Not much, as you were hoping to catch a near defenseless ship under fire by multiple enemies at an even steeper disadvantage than the pve ship would normally have against you for an effortless and risk free kill mail, but some sympathy regardless.


Almost nobody ganks ratters with link alts, if they're going to use an alt they'd use a bomber alt for dps and scouting/tackle.

Also I'm not talking about one guys + X accounts I'm talking about one dude going into hostile space and killing idiots and how NPC AI have changed that for the worse.

But please tell me more about how much an "extreme carebear" knows about solo roaming.

“We could learn a lot from crayons; some are sharp, some are pretty, some are dull, while others bright, some have weird names, but they all have learned to live together in the same box.” - Special needs division of Fcon.
Gwenievere Sui
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#79 - 2013-01-24 11:32:16 UTC
Chandaris wrote:
No no no

you shouldn't be able to bust billion isk PVE t3's running 10/10's in a ****** t1 frig. If you can't hunt them down in a properly tanked ship, GTFO. Sansha hates everybody equally.


So if sansha hates everyone equally, why do they switch to the ship entering grid 100% of the time? your saying that its unfair for someone doing PvE to have to fight the rats and the player at the same time, so the solution is to completely reverse the situation?

In my opinion the NPCs should behave realistically, if your a captain of a ship and an unknown entity arrives on grid, are you not more likely to wait and see what it does rather than immediately primary it?

Even if it is so unfair on someone who has plenty of time to get out of the site before the hostile warps in to keep aggro, it would make sense to have a more random aggression system, maybe sometimes the NPCs will change to the new player on grid, or maybe some of them will switch and some will remain on the original target?

If you want to be able to PvE with little risk of being killed by another player, why don't you just go back to HiSec? 0.0 isn't supposed to be safe to carebear in....
TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
#80 - 2013-01-24 14:59:30 UTC
Davader wrote:
Agree with TS, CCP have to fix their fail with aggro switching. If a stealth bomber decloacks over ratting BS or BC, the NPC shouldn't all aggro on the bomber, leaving the carebear alone - that's definately wrong logic in aggro mechanics.


No, that's perfectly right. Why would mr npc pirate *not* fire upon yet another unaffiliated pilot turning up at his gangs hideout? You're not one of him and his crew, you're just another random person. He's going to attack you too. Even if you cry about it :(