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Rebuttal: Nerf Without Cause: Jump Drives

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Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#381 - 2013-01-22 22:33:35 UTC
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
I'm just using it as an example that CCP doesn't enforce any specific state in null sec.

Not even one where the small gang can gain sov.



Yea I agree with you. It's all player driven. Not mechanics.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#382 - 2013-01-22 22:36:13 UTC
Murk Paradox wrote:
You use the same information to say its false, then prove why it's true. I do not wish to continue an argument of verbal semantics. More alliances hold more sov on the chinese server and are still able to accomplish more, while your argument about how large groups prevail is only shown by what, 70% of sov on our own? Using YOUR argument and examples, either Test OR Goons would own over half by themselves without the other being able to exist!

My example of smaller? Less than. For instance....

Quote:
The HBC has like 22k pilots in it. The CFC's around 20k. And that's on a server with 350-400k Accounts. TGA (one Alliance) on Serenity has 26 thousand pilots. PIBC has 21 thousand (and appears to be allied with Fadeklin [10k] and July Union [6k]*). And Serenity has far less than half the population of Tranquility.


My definition would be the 6k versus the 26k. 6k is smaller than 26k. Fadekin which is 10k is also smaller. Sov map of the chinese server shows that even with a smaller population, they can hold sov more spread out and evenly, even with the forces holding sov to be way different in size.

Just because I say a smaller force should be able to get a foothold, does not mean I am insinuating that a small pirate gang lull about taking sov like its a fw beacon.

You're inability to discern between a thought and raw text is bewildering to where you need to say what I'm saying.

Also, you posted about how you would want a better income generating source for null, and whereas on the chinese server, it is proven (and even remarked on) how they do just that, and support industry even using way less trade hubs.

I'm sorry you felt the need to argue mechanics and show how I am wrong. I admitted defeat and moved on, and even voraciously found things to read and devour to learn, and came across data and proof that shows where null might in fact have a problem, and yet you want to argue socially now.

Unfortunately, you are going to find fault in everything and think everything is just fine, so it just shows me you are not going to be satisfied no matter what is said or done.

Good day and safe flying.




Look at that Sov Map again. The fact that Fadeklin and July Union are boxed in by PIBC indicates that it is very likely that they are allies.

Claiming that they're small is the same as claiming that SMA is a successful "small" alliance because they hold Sov. While they are undoubtedly successful, since they're part of a coalition of 20k people, I would not count them among the ranks of the "small" groups we're discussing. Just like (from all appearances) Fadeklin and July union are part of a 35k+ character coalition.


Where did I say you were? I asked you to define a small group and, from the look of your post, you're defining it as 6,000 members, which would place it as the third largest Alliance on TQ.


The Chinese server works that way because the vast majority of the population lives in null. There is no significant HS presence to compete with. And, from firsthand accounts of people who have played over there, the entire environment is different (in part because of the far, far lower number of players). For instance, they, for whatever reason, tend not to hunt their enemy's ratters (to the point where ratters don't safe up when hostiles enter local).

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#383 - 2013-01-22 22:42:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Murk Paradox
Yep, social, not a matter of mechanics. Even using the smaller blobs that border highsec, or are in far corners (which you guys have stated here is undesirable therefore only taken by smaller groups who are starting out) it still shows the possibilities of holding sov.

But that's not the point.

The point being, be it mechanics, or social, noone here on this server will take responsbility for it. You will just scapegoat it to CCP and then say in order to become successful, you need "more" of 'insertmethodhere'.

Now sure, Pan intergalactic and july union might be what Goons and other associated divisional corps that own sov might be, so I understand your example there.

But are you trying to imply that only 2 groups, even on chinese server, or only held by alliances that have the 20k+ members?

Because I would beg to disagree.

If you read the article, it would go on to show how sov on chinese servers recruit directly from highsec and pull them into feeder corps in null.

Unfortunately, that would be a social mistake on our side because our 2 arguably largest coalitions are based off offsite memberships (I understand ingame recruitment is also employed).

So again, more signs point to player generated content!

So, player generated. Social problems.

Sounds legit. Especially given the current drama concerning the 2 larger coalitions at this current time.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Buzzy Warstl
Quantum Flux Foundry
#384 - 2013-01-23 02:48:53 UTC
Which brings us back to Sturgeon's Revalation http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sturgeon%27s_Law

90% of everything is crap, player generated content is no exception, but it lacks an editor.

http://www.mud.co.uk/richard/hcds.htm Richard Bartle: Players who suit MUDs
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#385 - 2013-01-23 04:53:30 UTC
Murk Paradox wrote:
Yep, social, not a matter of mechanics. Even using the smaller blobs that border highsec, or are in far corners (which you guys have stated here is undesirable therefore only taken by smaller groups who are starting out) it still shows the possibilities of holding sov.

But that's not the point.

The point being, be it mechanics, or social, noone here on this server will take responsbility for it. You will just scapegoat it to CCP and then say in order to become successful, you need "more" of 'insertmethodhere'.

Now sure, Pan intergalactic and july union might be what Goons and other associated divisional corps that own sov might be, so I understand your example there.

But are you trying to imply that only 2 groups, even on chinese server, or only held by alliances that have the 20k+ members?

Because I would beg to disagree.

If you read the article, it would go on to show how sov on chinese servers recruit directly from highsec and pull them into feeder corps in null.

Unfortunately, that would be a social mistake on our side because our 2 arguably largest coalitions are based off offsite memberships (I understand ingame recruitment is also employed).

So again, more signs point to player generated content!

So, player generated. Social problems.

Sounds legit. Especially given the current drama concerning the 2 larger coalitions at this current time.


You've drifted so far into the land of non-sequitor, I can hardly begin.

Are you, or are you not claiming that July Union, an alliance of 6 thousand members is to be considered a "small group"? If yes, what are you smoking? If not, what do you consider to be a small group?

Are you claiming that the Serenity Sov Map with its grand total of 9 Sov holders is somehow better than TQs I'm not going to count. But it's more than 9.

The recruiting practices of Sov holders is not at issue ITT, since this thread is, and always has been, about how power projection affects (or doesn't affect) the ability of "small groups" to gain, hold, and live in Sov space. By the way, the vast cultural differences mean that what works there does not work on TQ (remember, their Ratters don't even bother to safe up when hostiles enter local. I would not be surprised if AWOXing was completely alien to the server).

Oh, and only Goonwaffe limits itself to SA members, and only Dreddit limits itself to Reddit members. Other corps in the respective coalitions have different recruiting standards and practices.

Quote:
You will just scapegoat it to CCP and then say in order to become successful, you need "more" of 'insertmethodhere'.
Coming from the guy who's been calling for a Cyno/Jump Drive nerf for the past 20 pages....

Have you ever actually tried living in Null? Ever tried doing serious industry out of a POS instead of a free, risk free, effort free HS station? Ever compared the actual income you can make ratting in Null vs running HS incursions?

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Anthar Thebess
#386 - 2013-01-23 12:25:02 UTC
Here is also some other ideas how we could fix this :
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2322282#post2322282

But limiting number of capitals per cyno is also grate idea i will add it there ;)

Stop discrimination, help in a fight against terrorists

Show your support to The Cause!
War Kitten
Panda McLegion
#387 - 2013-01-23 13:24:12 UTC

Problem: Unopposed force projection is easy.

Solution: Create a way for players to oppose it rather than restrict it.

It seems to me that any kind of restriction you place on ships per cyno or cyno range just restricts the usefulness of the feature either to the point of tedium or oblivion. Instead, what you need is equally easy ways to counter these cynos.

Ideas:
1) Make system cyno jammers easier to place, and configurable to allow friendlies only.

2) Create a cyno jammer ship class. Let pilots be active in the system(s) with the mod on.

3) Give lighting a cyno beacon a 1 minute spool up. If people are in system they have time to kill it.


These ideas (at least 2 and 3) even promote the other desirable goal of having less pointless empty space. The point of the space would be to create a buffered no-cyno zone around your homeland, and you'd have to patrol it and occupy it. The people charged with protecting it would want things to do, so they upgrade the systems for better ratting/mining.

Am I missing anything?

I don't judge people by their race, religion, color, size, age, gender, or ethnicity. I judge them by their grammar, spelling, syntax, punctuation, clarity of expression, and logical consistency.
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#388 - 2013-01-23 16:06:43 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
Murk Paradox wrote:
Yep, social, not a matter of mechanics. Even using the smaller blobs that border highsec, or are in far corners (which you guys have stated here is undesirable therefore only taken by smaller groups who are starting out) it still shows the possibilities of holding sov.

But that's not the point.

The point being, be it mechanics, or social, noone here on this server will take responsbility for it. You will just scapegoat it to CCP and then say in order to become successful, you need "more" of 'insertmethodhere'.

Now sure, Pan intergalactic and july union might be what Goons and other associated divisional corps that own sov might be, so I understand your example there.

But are you trying to imply that only 2 groups, even on chinese server, or only held by alliances that have the 20k+ members?

Because I would beg to disagree.

If you read the article, it would go on to show how sov on chinese servers recruit directly from highsec and pull them into feeder corps in null.

Unfortunately, that would be a social mistake on our side because our 2 arguably largest coalitions are based off offsite memberships (I understand ingame recruitment is also employed).

So again, more signs point to player generated content!

So, player generated. Social problems.

Sounds legit. Especially given the current drama concerning the 2 larger coalitions at this current time.


You've drifted so far into the land of non-sequitor, I can hardly begin.

Are you, or are you not claiming that July Union, an alliance of 6 thousand members is to be considered a "small group"? If yes, what are you smoking? If not, what do you consider to be a small group?

Are you claiming that the Serenity Sov Map with its grand total of 9 Sov holders is somehow better than TQs I'm not going to count. But it's more than 9.

The recruiting practices of Sov holders is not at issue ITT, since this thread is, and always has been, about how power projection affects (or doesn't affect) the ability of "small groups" to gain, hold, and live in Sov space. By the way, the vast cultural differences mean that what works there does not work on TQ (remember, their Ratters don't even bother to safe up when hostiles enter local. I would not be surprised if AWOXing was completely alien to the server).

Oh, and only Goonwaffe limits itself to SA members, and only Dreddit limits itself to Reddit members. Other corps in the respective coalitions have different recruiting standards and practices.

Quote:
You will just scapegoat it to CCP and then say in order to become successful, you need "more" of 'insertmethodhere'.
Coming from the guy who's been calling for a Cyno/Jump Drive nerf for the past 20 pages....

Have you ever actually tried living in Null? Ever tried doing serious industry out of a POS instead of a free, risk free, effort free HS station? Ever compared the actual income you can make ratting in Null vs running HS incursions?



I live in null right now, so, yes, yes I have tried living in null. Still am! I don't see the point though, you want to say one thing, and then contradict yourself by pretending dominance by control.

I flat out do not care. I thought it important to defend my opinion, you have utterly abused it to nonsensical garbage. I have already stated... screw it, I'm just ignoring the whole point. Argue with someone else.

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Makar Kravchenko
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#389 - 2013-01-25 20:35:57 UTC
Tech 2 capital that has the ability to operate a mobile cyno jammer? Resource restricted w/ stront perhaps.Timer blah blah other stuff. Prevents hot drop o'clock but also carries a huge risk at the cost of a tech 2 capital ship. If they cost a lot like somewhere between the range of supers and titans it would make them less like to be a FOTW tactic. I could just be severley ******** in this thought process.
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#390 - 2013-01-25 20:38:32 UTC
Murk Paradox wrote:
http://themittani.com/features/new-eden-behind-great-firewall

Was a good read on how they do things and support the income you say sov needs from the playerbase.

I'd take it with a grain of salt since it also claims that RMT and botting doesn't happen on Serenity
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#391 - 2013-01-25 20:53:34 UTC
anyway if the fear of supercaps being dropped on noob fleets is a totally real thing and not some thing you read on EN24 back in 2010 why not just advocate some sort of grid-wide, ship-specific (example: only fits on hics) module that disables cynos from being activated, like a mobile cynojammer? Then the enemy has to kill that ship with subcaps before it can drop its supers on you.

no we gotta listen to like a million pages about how why gimping the mechanic wholesale will usher in some sort of smallholding utopia and not just completely crush the one thing that lets small alliances bring in supplies to their industrially crippled space
Makar Kravchenko
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#392 - 2013-01-25 21:11:56 UTC
I think making it a module that fits on a HIC would be too trivial. Its a subversion of captial invasion and should therefore require at least require some margin of investment in relation to what its designed to inhibit. Teçh 2 capital that has the same characteristics as a HIC. Extremely large buffer or local rep tank, and cannot enable any offensive weaponry while in cyno jamming operation. Cannot be remote either while in this mode. Maybe has AOE range for jamming or entire system. The cost should be extensive and it should be able to handle at least the damage from a large fleet of battleships untill its cyno jamming cycle has ended at which point it could be repped and engage offensively. Cost to build such a ship would have to be debated.
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#393 - 2013-01-25 21:18:59 UTC
the 'giant nullsec supercap blob' equalizer... that is a superexpensive capital ship made out of solid moon goo

yeah i see no problems with that
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#394 - 2013-01-25 21:25:38 UTC
Makar Kravchenko wrote:
I think making it a module that fits on a HIC would be too trivial. Its a subversion of captial invasion and should therefore require at least require some margin of investment in relation to what its designed to inhibit. Teçh 2 capital that has the same characteristics as a HIC. Extremely large buffer or local rep tank, and cannot enable any offensive weaponry while in cyno jamming operation. Cannot be remote either while in this mode. Maybe has AOE range for jamming or entire system. The cost should be extensive and it should be able to handle at least the damage from a large fleet of battleships untill its cyno jamming cycle has ended at which point it could be repped and engage offensively. Cost to build such a ship would have to be debated.



Ignoring the fact that cost is not a particularly useful balancing tactic, It would be laughably overpowered (especially if, say, you could Cynojam from in a POS shield or could move/be bumped while cyno jamming).

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
ashley Eoner
#395 - 2013-01-25 21:37:30 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
Have you ever actually tried living in Null? Ever tried doing serious industry out of a POS instead of a free, risk free, effort free HS station? Ever compared the actual income you can make ratting in Null vs running HS incursions?

So either you're not bright enough to realize you're calling yourself stupid or you're so ideologically blinded that you don't realize your rants against HS make you look dumb?

Durpdurp nullsec is worthless and hard and I make no money. HIGH SEC IS AWESOME FREE EVEYRTHING AND ALL THE ISK YOU COULD EVER WANT!!! That's why I live in nullsec!!


wait


what?
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#396 - 2013-01-25 21:38:41 UTC
these things called alts exist, try to keep up
ashley Eoner
#397 - 2013-01-25 21:45:44 UTC
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
these things called alts exist, try to keep up

Oh so all of nullsec are alts? Why bother then since there's nothing out there worth anything and apparently HS is the best thing eva.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#398 - 2013-01-25 21:52:43 UTC
ashley Eoner wrote:
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
these things called alts exist, try to keep up

Oh so all of nullsec are alts? Why bother then since there's nothing out there worth anything and apparently HS is the best thing eva.


For industry, it is. For general quality of life, it is. For building empires, not so much.

The problem is most nullsec players essentially have to have HS alts for making ISK. Fixing Nullsec would largely obviate that need, allowing us to live where we make our living.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
ashley Eoner
#399 - 2013-01-25 22:03:20 UTC  |  Edited by: ashley Eoner
RubyPorto wrote:
ashley Eoner wrote:
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
these things called alts exist, try to keep up

Oh so all of nullsec are alts? Why bother then since there's nothing out there worth anything and apparently HS is the best thing eva.


For industry, it is. For general quality of life, it is. For building empires, not so much.

The problem is most nullsec players essentially have to have HS alts for making ISK. Fixing Nullsec would largely obviate that need, allowing us to live where we make our living.
So according to you nullsec sucks terribly becauise the industry is terrible and the isk earned is terrible. Yet you and your alliance does everything it can to live there?


So either nullsec is better then you claim or you're a bunch of morons.
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#400 - 2013-01-25 22:06:42 UTC
yeah if you dont play the easiest and least challenging game you possibly can that means you're some kind of idiot