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CSM notes on faucets & sinks

Author
Andres Talas
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Collective
#101 - 2013-01-22 04:31:29 UTC
mynnna wrote:
[

Andres Talas wrote:
Nerf Hub isk income by dropping the bounty payments, but compensate by having the miniboss always appear and dropping an appropriate Tier officer drop.

The more general theme here of replacing some of the bounty in nullsec with some kind of loot is a good one. I'm not sure I'd go so far as to make it officer loot, however.



I should have clarified things better.

Lets take a Gurista Forsaken Hub, which currently drops 27m worth of bounties.

I would halve the cash bounties on the rats so it drops 12m isk worth of bounties, and have the Dreadnought at the end always spawn, and always drop a Tier X Officers Personal Effects, which can be traded at a Concord station for Y Loyalty Points.

Rarely, it will drop ammo, a crystal implant, or whatever else, so we dont get more of those things coming into the game than currently.

Essentially, the idea is to replace *cash* rewards, with *stuff* rewards.
mynnna
State War Academy
Caldari State
#102 - 2013-01-22 04:38:46 UTC
Ahhh okay, I see what you're saying. Confusion over the use of "officer".

Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal

Tauranon
Weeesearch
CAStabouts
#103 - 2013-01-22 11:30:56 UTC
Andres Talas wrote:
mynnna wrote:
[

Andres Talas wrote:
Nerf Hub isk income by dropping the bounty payments, but compensate by having the miniboss always appear and dropping an appropriate Tier officer drop.

The more general theme here of replacing some of the bounty in nullsec with some kind of loot is a good one. I'm not sure I'd go so far as to make it officer loot, however.



I should have clarified things better.

Lets take a Gurista Forsaken Hub, which currently drops 27m worth of bounties.

I would halve the cash bounties on the rats so it drops 12m isk worth of bounties, and have the Dreadnought at the end always spawn, and always drop a Tier X Officers Personal Effects, which can be traded at a Concord station for Y Loyalty Points.

Rarely, it will drop ammo, a crystal implant, or whatever else, so we dont get more of those things coming into the game than currently.

Essentially, the idea is to replace *cash* rewards, with *stuff* rewards.


(a) you typically get a faction rat "commander", spawn at the end of an anom. You will typically get an "overseer" at the end of the escalation. You won't get an "officer".
(b) LP is a currency, people will sit on it till they need it in cash, just like they sit on isk.
(c) anomolies, escalation and exploration are all part of a skinnerbox reward system. Pulling it apart just turns into mission running, and if I wanted missioney-space-accountant-grind, I'd run missions.
(d) I have no idea how far I would have to travel with physical stuff like a tag or an annoyingly large box to find a DED or a CONCORD station for handing in basic rewards but for many people that would suck. IMO whole point to owning space is that at least 1 thing there is rewarding for the average pilot. that just sounds like more annoying null logistics.
(e) at 3 or 4 people per system logged on, and 50+ people logged into highsec mission hubs, I can't imagine that lowsec and null anoms are the greater part of bounties.
(f) if you reduce the supply of isk you'll make the isk a lot more valuable and more people will try fetch it.
Donnero
Arliuhtan
#104 - 2013-01-22 14:31:53 UTC
Lets take Concord and Our friendly insurance company work together. No payout for insurance who was destroyed by Concord. The insurance shouldnt be in the caulation if you gank or not.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#105 - 2013-01-22 14:38:40 UTC
Donnero wrote:
Lets take Concord and Our friendly insurance company work together. No payout for insurance who was destroyed by Concord. The insurance shouldnt be in the caulation if you gank or not.


Hi there.

This might interest you. Please take note of the date, November 29, 2011.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon

Donnero
Arliuhtan
#106 - 2013-01-22 15:22:09 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
Donnero wrote:
Lets take Concord and Our friendly insurance company work together. No payout for insurance who was destroyed by Concord. The insurance shouldnt be in the caulation if you gank or not.


Hi there.

This might interest you. Please take note of the date, November 29, 2011.



Ty didnt know that. :)
Callduron
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#107 - 2013-01-23 01:31:11 UTC
Alex Grison wrote:
Isabelle Dmitri wrote:
Candy Oshea wrote:
this is what happens when a mechanical engineer argues with ecomonics major's isn't it


No, I'm a mechanical engineer and I understand this **** perfectly.
This is what happens when a ******* MORON debates with people who actually have a basic understanding of the game.


Don't get mad. All of the tear vacuums are being used in C&P right now.

:(


Eve can never have enough tear faucets Twisted

I write http://stabbedup.blogspot.co.uk/

I post on reddit as /u/callduron.

Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#108 - 2013-01-23 02:48:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Mara Rinn
Other ideas for sinks:

  • Increase the charter requirement for POSes in hisec
  • Convert refineries and reprocessing plants to activity lines which require fees for installation and duration of refining/reprocessing jobs
  • Add wages/salaries to PI infrastructure


Other ideas for controlling faucets:

  • Rebalance mission payouts towards LP instead of ISK
  • Allow redemption of certain items for CONCORD or NPC corp LP
  • Rebalance pirate bounties in favour of better salvage, loot, or special items (e.g.: the "tags for sec status" tags or "items for LP" items)
  • Allow blue loot to be exchanged for LP at certain stores.


The purpose of "items for LP" is to introduce an LP payout to belt & dungeon rats.

Clarification: LP is currency, like ISK, but it is not tradable between players for goods or services. LP is spent on goods or services, which will then be forwarded to other players for ISK or other goods/services. Switching ISK for LP payouts means that ISK inflation can be adjusted by moving the player-ergs inflation to a different market.

At least that's my thinking, using my flawed and broken brain =(

I'm hoping mynna/corestwo/aryth will be at Fanfest so I can get me some learnin' :)
mynnna
State War Academy
Caldari State
#109 - 2013-01-23 03:14:40 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:

  • Increase the charter requirement for POSes in hisec
  • Charters come from FW, they're not NPC sold.
    Mara Rinn wrote:

    I'm hoping mynna/corestwo/aryth will be at Fanfest so I can get me some learnin' :)

    Won't be, sorry.

    Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal

    Mara Rinn
    Cosmic Goo Convertor
    #110 - 2013-01-23 04:50:42 UTC
    Starbase charters (those things used as part of the fuel load for hisec POSes) are available from most NPC LP stores. Which charters are you thinking of?
    RubyPorto
    RubysRhymes
    #111 - 2013-01-23 04:55:57 UTC
    Mara Rinn wrote:
    Starbase charters (those things used as part of the fuel load for hisec POSes) are available from most NPC LP stores. Which charters are you thinking of?


    And they cost no ISK when purchased from any LP stores. So they have no ISK sinking effect.

    "It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon

    Candy Oshea
    Techfree Investment Group
    #112 - 2013-01-23 04:59:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Candy Oshea
    RubyPorto wrote:
    Mara Rinn wrote:
    Starbase charters (those things used as part of the fuel load for hisec POSes) are available from most NPC LP stores. Which charters are you thinking of?


    And they cost no ISK when purchased from any LP stores. So they have no ISK sinking effect.


    if they cost more LP or required more, then wouldn't there be less isk sunk Via LP, due to players spending on these, rather than say +5 implants? due to the subsequent upswing in demand?

    Teach me.Oops

    iCandy  - I have accidently swallowed some Scrabble tiles, my next shit could spell disaster!

    mynnna
    State War Academy
    Caldari State
    #113 - 2013-01-23 05:13:11 UTC
    Yeah, same charters I was thinking of? I tiredposted and forgot that they're in most all LP stores, not just FW. Still, no isk cost to buy them, so no sink, as Ruby pointed out.

    To candy's question: if they cost more LP, they'd just rise in price until they reached a new isk/LP where they were worth selling. It wouldn't really have any major effect on other items like implants.

    Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal

    Candy Oshea
    Techfree Investment Group
    #114 - 2013-01-23 05:20:18 UTC
    mynnna wrote:
    To candy's question: if they cost more LP, they'd just rise in price until they reached a new isk/LP where they were worth selling. It wouldn't really have any major effect on other items like implants.


    Yeh it would be a blip wouldn't it. What? those bloody things are everywhere.

    iCandy  - I have accidently swallowed some Scrabble tiles, my next shit could spell disaster!

    RubyPorto
    RubysRhymes
    #115 - 2013-01-23 06:32:06 UTC  |  Edited by: RubyPorto
    Now, if they added 500 or 1000 ISK/charter to the cost, we might be getting somewhere.

    Making the offer 100k ISK + 500 LP would add 1000 ISK to their cost. (50% for Caldari in Jita)

    Every HS POS needs one every hour, so each HS POS would sink... 672k ISK/month. That's not so impressive, actually. And increasing the ISK sink to something significant (10m/month, say) would quickly render it virtually indistinguishable from an NPC sold good, since the LP cost becomes inconsequential.

    From the look of it (eyballing the market chart with a scientific WAG), about 100k caldari charters are sold in Jita every day. Assuming none of them are sold twice, and the same volumes occur on the other 5 racial charters, that 1k isk/unit ISK cost would amonut to 500m ISK/day or 15b a month.

    Raising the sink/POS to 10m/month (adding 15k ISK/unit) would increase that total sink to 7.5b/day or 225b a month, which is starting to get to something noticeable on the grand stage, I think.

    And the LP store offer would look like: 1.5m ISK + 500 LP gets 100 Charters. Which actually might not be bad. It breaks wildly from the 1000 ISK per LP trend of LP stores, but I don't think I care about that.

    (Of course, if CCP even hints at doing this before it goes live, the new Isk sink will not actually sink anything for years.)

    "It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon

    Candy Oshea
    Techfree Investment Group
    #116 - 2013-01-23 08:03:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Candy Oshea
    Replace the components used in T2 BPO (Not Invented T2 BPC's) with NPC Seeded pipes/bolts w/e + Some morphite & 1 original item

    e.g. Proposed T2 BPO (Heavy Missile Launcher II ) Ingredients using BPO

    *1 Heavy Missile Launcher - (player driven)
    *12 Shiney Casings - (New NPC good Value appropriate (Say 13,000 isk), to cause no spike in Price)
    *230 Morphite

    This would do a few things.

    It would innocently take isk out of the system. (as long as the price to make them is viable)
    It would cause some Butt-Frustration on forums, like any T2 BPO related post.
    It could make invention Compete better in some markets. (if some player driven event drove down some prices for invention mebe)

    if anything, we should see a large spike in Self entitled Butthurt rants.

    iCandy  - I have accidently swallowed some Scrabble tiles, my next shit could spell disaster!

    Bob Killan
    Dzark Asylum
    #117 - 2013-01-23 11:42:18 UTC
    Candy Oshea wrote:
    Replace the components used in T2 BPO (Not Invented T2 BPC's) with NPC Seeded pipes/bolts w/e + Some morphite & 1 original item

    e.g. Proposed T2 BPO (Heavy Missile Launcher II ) Ingredients using BPO

    *1 Heavy Missile Launcher - (player driven)
    *12 Shiney Casings - (New NPC good Value appropriate (Say 13,000 isk), to cause no spike in Price)
    *230 Morphite

    This would do a few things.

    It would innocently take isk out of the system. (as long as the price to make them is viable)
    It would cause some Butt-Frustration on forums, like any T2 BPO related post.
    It could make invention Compete better in some markets. (if some player driven event drove down some prices for invention mebe)

    if anything, we should see a large spike in Self entitled Butthurt rants.



    Whilst im all for making T2 BPO's identical in build cost to generating the same product from invention (including the invention costs) Ie add the ingredients required to invent to the BPO bill of materials.
    Your proposal falls down at this point:

    *12 Shiney Casings - (New NPC good Value appropriate (Say 13,000 isk), to cause no spike in Price)

    Why would CCP who have been working hard to remove as many NPC items as possible to create a Player driven market suddenly decide to introduce an NPC item for no reason whats so ever. T2 BPO production costs can be increased with out the need to add a new NPC item.
    Mia Restolo
    Royal Amarr Institute
    Amarr Empire
    #118 - 2013-01-23 15:42:54 UTC
    ISK sinks only apply to ISK actually removed from the game, not ISK removed from your wallet and given to another player.

    A hulk can get blow up, but it was most likely paid for using ISK which went to another player. There are indirect sinks (market taxes, the covetor BPO, research that went into it, etc...) in this situation but they are so minor they don't come close to offsetting the ISK that is added to the game just because of the insurance. Your valuable assets getting blown up does nothing to sink ISK out of the economy, the ISK is still out there, just not in your wallet.

    The way ISK is handed out in game through bounties or insurance is like the government printing money to pay debts rather than collecting taxes and balancing budgets. Eventually there's so much cash floating around it loses value.
    DarthNefarius
    Minmatar Heavy Industries
    #119 - 2013-01-23 19:20:20 UTC  |  Edited by: DarthNefarius
    Upon reading the DEV blog on bounties I realized that they had not mentioned a 1 time ISK sink: The retirement of the old bounties. I wonder if that was in the trillions.

    A new sink that we have no idea of how much it takes out of the economy was the research agent 10k ISK datacore charges and the FW lp store datacores which now take out 50k per core but over the summer where often only taking out 25k & 12.5k each

    I hope to soon see a DEV blog on sinks & faucets and not only get a partial view of a undetailed graph like we often saw at fanfest last year.
    An' then Chicken@little.com, he come scramblin outta the    Terminal room screaming "The system's crashing! The system's    crashing!" -Uncle RAMus, 'Tales for Cyberpsychotic Children'
    
    Andres Talas
    Brave Newbies Inc.
    Brave Collective
    #120 - 2013-01-23 20:19:25 UTC
    Tauranon wrote:


    (a) you typically get a faction rat "commander", spawn at the end of an anom. You will typically get an "overseer" at the end of the escalation. You won't get an "officer".
    (b) LP is a currency, people will sit on it till they need it in cash, just like they sit on isk.
    (c) anomolies, escalation and exploration are all part of a skinnerbox reward system. Pulling it apart just turns into mission running, and if I wanted missioney-space-accountant-grind, I'd run missions.
    (d) I have no idea how far I would have to travel with physical stuff like a tag or an annoyingly large box to find a DED or a CONCORD station for handing in basic rewards but for many people that would suck. IMO whole point to owning space is that at least 1 thing there is rewarding for the average pilot. that just sounds like more annoying null logistics.
    (e) at 3 or 4 people per system logged on, and 50+ people logged into highsec mission hubs, I can't imagine that lowsec and null anoms are the greater part of bounties.
    (f) if you reduce the supply of isk you'll make the isk a lot more valuable and more people will try fetch it.


    a) Officers are whatever drop Tier X Officers Personal Effects.
    b) Note most of the worthwhile LP rewards require isk as well
    c) Im not changing any of that - just moving the rewards away from raw isk
    d) Take it to your local market hub and sell it there to someone there
    e) You'd be surprisingly wrong. Heres a map of Metropolis kills per 24 hours

    http://evemaps.dotlan.net/map/Metropolis#npc24

    Now, Branch

    http://evemaps.dotlan.net/map/Branch#npc24

    Surprising stuff, huh

    f) And ?