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[Retribution 1.1] Black Ops Little Things - now with Covert Cyno update

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Syzygium
Ventures Bar
#161 - 2013-01-22 13:31:19 UTC
Fozzie, do you guys realize that the same guys who are dropping everyone and his dog with the titanbridges will be the same guys who can now just store their 20++ blackops in the same staging system and cover an entire region (or more)? ISK is no limiting factor for these guys and the only reason why they didnt use BlackOps in the past was the limited range, the fuel management and the weak baits.

Now you have removed ALL of those points and given them just another tool to gank their victims anytime anywhere with maximum comfort and minimum risk.

It is beyond me why you guys want to cripple the game for smallscale PvP and smaller Corps that much... Cynowarfare is the single most stupid game mechanic in EvE Online, because it totally breaks the balance between power and mobility. All that counts is "how much backup do you have on the batphone". A few months ago there was a spark of hope when some dev mentioned that CCP has realized that all this instant forceprojection via Cynos is a problem. Listen to that guy. He spoke wisdom.

If you don't believe it, come to lowsec and count the titans, online and waiting to drop their hungy gankfleet on someone stupid enough to attack their baitship a dozen jumps ago.

This change is one more step from an EvE online where scouting, misinformation, fleet movement and hero tackle were important things, to an EvE online in form of a "Game of Cynos". Its a shame. There are so many ways you can buff BlackOps - increasing their range is the worst. Give them more Utilityslots, Higher Resistances, a greater Dronebay or more Cargospace so they actually can do their job behind enemy lines and far from own support better - but do not increase their range. I have FCed quite some BO-Gangs in my life and we use them very successful - they don't need more range. They need attention and skill - and thats good as it is!
CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#162 - 2013-01-22 13:44:32 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Fozzie
A couple questions I can quickly answer:

  • No this is not the "done" state for black ops. The covert cyno change is just another little things tweak in the interim.

  • I don't think we have the bandwidth to change slot layouts on blockade runners this patch, but it's something to consider when we rebalance transport ships later.

  • Bombers are getting a 50% reduction to the CPU use of cloaks, so the end result will be exactly the same.

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#163 - 2013-01-22 14:11:34 UTC
I put up a market order for a redeemer about an hour after the minutes were released..

It was too late.. prices EXPLODED

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

XOdysseyX
Galactic Rangers
#164 - 2013-01-22 19:47:21 UTC
xVx dreadnaught wrote:
Want to make the Black Ops more worthwhile flying?

Simple, give them their racial EWAR bonus.

Right now the only ship benefiting from it's racial EWAR bonus is the Widow, and to good effect, because why would I jump a billion isk ship into a fight, when I could throw a stealth bomber into the battle instead, with almost double the DPS at a fraction of the cost?

Making the Sin a long range point with damps, the Redeemer a close range neut boat like the Pilgrim and the Panther a web bonus like the rapier would make them more worth fielding.

- Dread


I second this! and liked.
Devedse
Infinite Point
Pandemic Horde
#165 - 2013-01-22 23:35:53 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Devedse wrote:
Why has no one ever thought about the fact to make black ops be able to jump to high sec??? It would instantly give them a huge "cool feature".

I bet some mission runners wanna pimp out some black ops to be able to instantly jump to their mission sites. They can also be used for backup when wartargets are station hugging (bait them with only 1 ship there, jump in the black ops).

There's loads more things to think about they could do in high sec. It would give them a real unique role in EvE.

What about it guys?

The more I think about this the better it sounds, and its not like every ship that can go through a covert jump portal is not allowed in high sec anyway.


I just hope some CCP guys read this too, and atleast keep it into consideration :).
Fronkfurter McSheebleton
Horse Feathers
CAStabouts
#166 - 2013-01-22 23:41:06 UTC
Devedse wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Devedse wrote:
Why has no one ever thought about the fact to make black ops be able to jump to high sec??? It would instantly give them a huge "cool feature".

I bet some mission runners wanna pimp out some black ops to be able to instantly jump to their mission sites. They can also be used for backup when wartargets are station hugging (bait them with only 1 ship there, jump in the black ops).

There's loads more things to think about they could do in high sec. It would give them a real unique role in EvE.

What about it guys?

The more I think about this the better it sounds, and its not like every ship that can go through a covert jump portal is not allowed in high sec anyway.


I just hope some CCP guys read this too, and atleast keep it into consideration :).

If I remember correctly, this topic has come up before, and was not entirely ruled out.

thhief ghabmoef
Reppyk
The Black Shell
#167 - 2013-01-23 00:05:07 UTC
The problem is opening a (covert) cyno in highsec, I think.

I AM SPACE CAPTAIN REPPYK. BEWARE.

Proud co-admin of frugu.net, a French fansite about EVE !
Caldari 5
D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F. S.A.S
Affirmative.
#168 - 2013-01-23 03:32:52 UTC
Marlona Sky wrote:
Vilnius Zar wrote:
While I agree that BO have been in dire straights a bit, I'm very much against making jump capable ships more "powerful", more range is fine and less annoyance is also fine. But if the future changes are about making them more viable in a combat situation I'm very much against it.

Jump bridges and jump capable ships are the very reason why we have boring and meaningless 0.0 and I would hope CCP to tone them down rather than to add more of them.

Perhaps nerfing the range of all other jumping and bridging ships instead of buff the BO jump and bridge range would make black ops a bit more competitive. Big smile But yeah, I understand your concern about power projection.

Reduce the Jump Range on everything, and increase the number of Solar Systems. increase the number of Solar Systems so that the current outer edge of Null is as Dense as Empire(HS) and then extend out Further again, Pockets of LS/HS on the very outer edges could make some interesting things happen as people transport goods from inner hubs to outer Hubs.
iirc currently it takes about 6 or 7 Jumps to traverse Eve in a Carrier, I'd like to see this increase to about 40 or 50 at least.

GeeShizzle MacCloud wrote:
Sinigr Shadowsong wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:

Open up the use of Covert Cynosural Field Generators on any Strategic Cruiser that has the Covert Reconfiguration subsystem fitted, as well as on Blockade Runners. This means that the availability of covert cynos is consistent and simple. If you can jump through the bridge you can light the cyno.

Another buff for Blockade Runners. Transport ships instead left to rot deep inside millenuim-old layer of space dust under the shadow of glorious Blockade Runners.


maybe deep space transports should get a nullifier bonus then... would fit their brief as 'deep space' transports.

This would be Awesome DSTs need the love.
Trep Algaert
Occultum Scientia
#169 - 2013-01-23 06:38:53 UTC
This means a real possibility of deploying a decent sized gang to... anywhere using a 3 ship combo for transport: cloaky/interdiction nullifier t3 for running gatecamps and lighting covert cynos, blops for bridging any cloaky ship, and a cloaky hauler for fuel needs. not sure exactly how many jumps around you could make before resupplying, but i imagine it's a lot. just add bombers, and season with recons to taste. when we get a proper combat blops battleship it'll be even better, though personally I think the blops fleet comp needs a dedicated support (frig) killer. maybe that can be webbing lokis fit with covert cynos now, though i don't know how effective the dual role would be.

Metagaming is really just roleplaying as an eve player
Cyaron wars
Academia RED HOT Corporation
#170 - 2013-01-23 06:43:13 UTC
@ Fozzie,

We will have president elections soon in my country. Please come and take part, u sir have my voice! :D
Mad Ani
Meta Zero
Meta Reloaded
#171 - 2013-01-23 07:16:05 UTC
So many Bops pilots would be happy about this Cool

♫ ♪ MAD ANI TV/RADIO • 24/7 EVE live stream with Trance/Dance/Chillout • On air since 17th Jan 2013 •Most popular stream •3rd Party Super Service
Alx Warlord
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#172 - 2013-01-23 13:51:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Alx Warlord
Hey Fozzie, I have a big question for you. Will the ship cass ("tiercide") division be aplied to the tec II versions? I mean, there wil be an atack Black OP, an Logistic Black op, a combat black ops, and so goes on for almost every class of ship? or it ends on the T1 veriant? what are the plans for the T II? It is a mess doesn't it?

Well... analyzing the game mechanics, the TII classification and the effect in the ship...is a little messed up... but we can group them this way:
Quote:
TII tiers Groups

Heavy: ( Better then T1 Variant (Combat logistic assault electronic warfare and Command)
Covert: ( Cloak + something )
Interdiction: (Better on holding)


Can we expect a matrix using the size, T1 and T2 class crossbreeding?

Quote:
Pick one of each line to create a ship
[Race]+[TII modifier]+[TI class]+[size class]

[Heavy, Covert, Interdiction]
x
[Combat, Attack, Disruption, Support, Exploration]
x
[Frigate, Destroyer, Cruiser, battle-cruiser, Battleship]


Example: Gallente Covert Exploration Frigate = Helios
Example: Ammar Heavy Support Cruiser = Guardian

Please read these!

New POS system New SOV system
Satracz
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#173 - 2013-01-23 14:47:33 UTC
Do NOT increase the max range of the BO,it is OK how it is NOW !
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#174 - 2013-01-23 17:55:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Andski
CCP Fozzie wrote:
  • Open up the use of Covert Cynosural Field Generators on any Strategic Cruiser that has the Covert Reconfiguration subsystem fitted, as well as on Blockade Runners. This means that the availability of covert cynos is consistent and simple. If you can jump through the bridge you can light the cyno.

    • This is just marginalizing recons in favor of nullified cloaky T3s with covert cynos. Nullifiers are broken as hell (and I know this because I use a nullified cloaky T3 all the time) and this is a terrible idea.

    The only reason to use a recon now will be for the shorter cyno duration, which doesn't matter anyway with covert cynos.

    Twitter: @EVEAndski

    "It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
    Chanina
    ASGARD HEAVY INDUSTRIES
    #175 - 2013-01-23 20:14:50 UTC
    I really understand that the black ops need to be buffed and this changes are at least a sign that there is something done. BUT with ranges like Titans and Tech 3 Fleets jumpable cloaking campers will become a more serious problem than they are atm. Currently you have the chance to find the rally point for the cov ops gang but with titan range there are way more systems to cover.

    Black Ops and there features are very welcome but keep in mind what happens with the nice 24/7 neigbours.
    Quindaster
    Infernal Laboratory
    Infernal Octopus
    #176 - 2013-01-23 23:20:12 UTC
    Omnathious Deninard wrote:
    Quindaster wrote:
    What I want to see in BO after this changes on jump range.

    1. less fuel usage for portal T3 ships. (because now if you portal 2 T3 - you out of fuel)

    2. abbility to use warfare links. (yes, so we can use bonuses on armor, skirmish, shield)

    3. abbility to refite from each other

    4. remote rep bonuses on range for Sin.

    5. T2 resists

    6. NO new racial EWAR bonuses! No close range Redeemer with neuts or damps like some idiots wrote.

    Sounds like you want a Thanatos and not a Sin, but you want the Thanatos to be able to bridge also.



    T1 crusers and T2 crusers have this bonuses, so they thanatos too?!

    Why BS class cannot have remote rep bonuses if they support ships?
    15-20km remote rep bunuses will be good, so, I don't know how you compare it to thanatos with capital remote reps...large reps vs capital...it's very big difference.
    Quindaster
    Infernal Laboratory
    Infernal Octopus
    #177 - 2013-01-23 23:35:43 UTC
    Reppyk wrote:
    I
    You can jump another BlOp to return the fleet, even with a crane if you need more fuel.



    aye, and you can say - you can always bring JF with fuel for whole fleet too.
    Do you know how many isotops use blockade runner when he jump in portal?
    I think no, because you will need to have dedicated BO to portal only bloakade runner or other ships cannot jump in portal because you will be out of fuel.
    Irya Boone
    The Scope
    #178 - 2013-01-23 23:41:55 UTC
    Nice changes but don't be afraid to really do the good things for Blops.

    Give Us a specific Cargo for the fuel Like exhumers have a specific cargo to ore....Evil

    Give them a specific bonus according to the Race : Ewar for Widow/ Drones bonuses for Sin .....

    Maybe make them Battleship command Ship ( But i see this role More for the Hyperion actually ) with proper bonus.

    I don't even tank about the covert ops cloack ... because i still don't understand Why Blops don't have a big bonus for the use .oO

    In order to resume make BS tech2 and improvement of BS and not only a niche .. with an only one role : make people jump...

    CCP it's time to remove Off Grid Boost and Put Them on Killmail too, add Logi on killmails .... Open that damn door !!

    you shall all bow and pray BoB
    Omnathious Deninard
    University of Caille
    Gallente Federation
    #179 - 2013-01-23 23:45:59 UTC
    Quindaster wrote:
    Omnathious Deninard wrote:
    Quindaster wrote:
    What I want to see in BO after this changes on jump range.

    1. less fuel usage for portal T3 ships. (because now if you portal 2 T3 - you out of fuel)

    2. abbility to use warfare links. (yes, so we can use bonuses on armor, skirmish, shield)

    3. abbility to refite from each other

    4. remote rep bonuses on range for Sin.

    5. T2 resists

    6. NO new racial EWAR bonuses! No close range Redeemer with neuts or damps like some idiots wrote.

    Sounds like you want a Thanatos and not a Sin, but you want the Thanatos to be able to bridge also.



    T1 crusers and T2 crusers have this bonuses, so they thanatos too?!

    Why BS class cannot have remote rep bonuses if they support ships?
    15-20km remote rep bunuses will be good, so, I don't know how you compare it to thanatos with capital remote reps...large reps vs capital...it's very big difference.


    2. abbility to use warfare links. (yes, so we can use bonuses on armor, skirmish, shield)
    Capitals can do this
    3. abbility to refite from each other
    Capitals can do this
    4. remote rep bonuses on range for Sin.
    The Sin is a drone ship, adding remote repair to it plus the stuff above would make it almost like a Thanatos with the exception of the Covert Jump Portal Generator.

    If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
    Irya Boone
    The Scope
    #180 - 2013-01-24 01:39:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Irya Boone
    if the sin is drone ship make it look like ... same Bandwidth than a Bs tech 1 , same number of drones than a Tech1 BS ....

    Do something to Fix it SIN Should be an improved version of The Dominix

    More deployable drones? more Bonus for drones ? more drone bay?? I would be nice to make the Black ops a mid ship between BS tech1 and dread.

    CCP it's time to remove Off Grid Boost and Put Them on Killmail too, add Logi on killmails .... Open that damn door !!

    you shall all bow and pray BoB