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Do many EVE players fear consentual PvP?
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Solstice Project
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#121 - 2013-01-22 09:15:20 UTC
Ginger Barbarella wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Warp Planet6 wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
How do you use current mechanics to allow 2 parties to engage in a limited conflict similar to what the duel system will allow?


Move lowsec, warp planet 6 and fight like a boss.

That doesn't provide any of the benefits of the duel system.


Or the safety; it merely removes the risk that is the hallmark of Eve Online. Curious that, no?

I don't want to play WoW in Space. I don't want to play Aeon in Space. You guys want that pussification in the way you play, leave. I'll happily hold the door for you (and no, I don't want your tainted stuffs).
You could help them finding the door, you know.
Rordan D'Kherr
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#122 - 2013-01-22 09:26:10 UTC
Ginger Barbarella wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Warp Planet6 wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
How do you use current mechanics to allow 2 parties to engage in a limited conflict similar to what the duel system will allow?


Move lowsec, warp planet 6 and fight like a boss.

That doesn't provide any of the benefits of the duel system.


Or the safety; it merely removes the risk that is the hallmark of Eve Online. Curious that, no?

I don't want to play WoW in Space. I don't want to play Aeon in Space. You guys want that pussification in the way you play, leave. I'll happily hold the door for you (and no, I don't want your tainted stuffs).


I think that is pretty much the issue here.

Safe pvp light, out of the (sand-)box, a happy place for "pvp" next to the mission hub or favorite belt. No need to go to the risky spaces (because concord protection is good hmmkay?).

Don't be scared, because being afk is not a crime.
March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#123 - 2013-01-22 09:34:17 UTC  |  Edited by: March rabbit
Sura Sadiva wrote:

If you want consensual PvP then I want consensual market prices.

Is it wrong to have PvP "enforced" and not consensual? Then why should I've your market prices enforced to me? I want to consensually decide what I've to pay!


well you have it already!

surprise, surprise! Cool

there is BPO market with NPC prices, get 1 BPO, it has NPC given material requirements, go mine and build stuff. You will always need to mine the same amount of ore independent of market prices Cool

PS: I ignored miners competition and manufacturing slots competition because you only asked about consensual market prices Cool

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
Christ Illusion
Atrocity Vendors
#124 - 2013-01-22 09:45:20 UTC
Ginger Barbarella wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Warp Planet6 wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
How do you use current mechanics to allow 2 parties to engage in a limited conflict similar to what the duel system will allow?


Move lowsec, warp planet 6 and fight like a boss.

That doesn't provide any of the benefits of the duel system.


Or the safety; it merely removes the risk that is the hallmark of Eve Online. Curious that, no?

I don't want to play WoW in Space. I don't want to play Aeon in Space. You guys want that pussification in the way you play, leave. I'll happily hold the door for you (and no, I don't want your tainted stuffs).


As I see you don't PVP at all.
Anyway, who cares if ppl dueling in high-sec? They did it before.
EVE is not just your game.
Galaxy Pig
New Order Logistics
CODE.
#125 - 2013-01-22 10:28:55 UTC
Wow, I really don't like this idea. The whole premise of the OP is that ridiculous old quest for a "fair fight". It disgusts me to see him refer to WoW style 1v1 carebear combat as "hardcore". The people who talk about "fair fights" and "blobbing" are always the same people who refer to their mining character as "defenseless". Just pushing the tired old narrative that the cards are always stacked against you and not the other guy, the system is always set up so you lose and we win. Makes me sick.

I think I'll go kill some defenseless miners to feel better.

Highsec is owned by players now. Systems 0.5-1.0 are New Order Territory. All miners and other residents of Highsec must obey The Code. Mining without a permit is dangerous and harmful to the EVE community. See www.MinerBumping.com
Sura Sadiva
Entropic Tactical Crew
#126 - 2013-01-22 10:56:52 UTC

What puzzle me more is the fact that if you run a 20-men mining op, wiping wwhole belts and leaving no margin for a solo miner this is perfectly fine, nobody argue about numbers and fairness. Nobody cries or think they should scale down their numbers or be policied by some game mechanics nor someone call them "******* grieffers"

Or when you use a freighter to move massive goods on the market bumping the prices and ******* the profit of a someone that can rely only on iteron mark II. This is accepted. Why don't cry about this too? What about adding some game mechanics to atificially limit this and make things "fair"? Would you folks be happy?
Rordan D'Kherr
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#127 - 2013-01-22 11:01:58 UTC
Sura Sadiva wrote:

What puzzle me more is the fact that if you run a 20-men mining op, wiping wwhole belts and leaving no margin for a solo miner this is perfectly fine, nobody argue about numbers and fairness. Nobody cries or think they should scale down their numbers or be policied by some game mechanics nor someone call them "******* grieffers"

Or when you use a freighter to move massive goods on the market bumping the prices and ******* the profit of a someone that can rely only on iteron mark II. This is accepted. Why don't cry about this too? What about adding some game mechanics to atificially limit this and make things "fair"? Would you folks be happy?


Maybe hisec carebears are more hardcore or in line with the game intension than hisec "pvp'ers". It's kinda weird, you are right.

Don't be scared, because being afk is not a crime.
TheBlueMonkey
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#128 - 2013-01-22 11:14:39 UTC
I find fights way more interesting when we're out numbered and out gunned tbh.
Skurja Volpar
T.R.I.A.D
Ushra'Khan
#129 - 2013-01-22 11:30:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Skurja Volpar
Not the concept itself, concord sanctioned tournaments/arenas might be a cool way to get more players experienced and confident in pvp. But overall my worry about what it might do to the game outweighs most of that. And the only people it would really benefit are those don't want to get involved with any sort of community.

It's a slippery slope, and if it becomes the norm for pvp minded pilots as well as the less experienced and becomes an actual metagame, we might find eve becomes a much more boring place.

Also, 1v1 is available as it is. You just have to look for it, and be aware there's always the risk of; it not being honored, nuetral reps, being humiliated outside a trade hub station - all of which are part of eve's core emergent-ness-ness and can be avoided by arranging with people you know/have had good experiences with before.
Mayhaw Morgan
State War Academy
Caldari State
#130 - 2013-01-22 11:43:32 UTC
Here's what I'm reading between the lines: "PVPers" don't want high sec dwellers to be able to PVP in high sec, with CONCORD protection. They want them to go to low or null. If they can "duel" in high sec, they won't have any incentive to risk a trip to more dangerous areas where "PVPers" can gank them without recourse. Also, if they are practicing PVP, they'll be better prepared for confrontations in more dangerous parts of space and might actually be able to deal with "PVPers" when they finally do go to low or null.

I haven't read the whole thread, but in what I read, I didn't see anyone talk about duelers being rendered invincible and ungankable while they were dueling. I didn't see anyone suggest that there could be no cheating, metagaming, shenanigans, or whatever you want to call it in these "duels". And, if we consider the possibility of a mutual war between two 1-man corps, or a drawn out "Limited Engagement" involving just two people, or even just a random contest between two people low sec or null or just flagged as suspect in high sec, then there are ALREADY duels in EVE. If you are arguing against dueling, then you might as well just go ahead and call for an outright ban on PVPing in high sec. That's really what you want, for people to NEED to go to where you can attack them without recourse in order to play the game they want to play. It's just another way of calling for a nerf to high sec. You don't want people to make ISK in high sec. You don't want people to do industry in high sec. You don't want people to "gf" in high sec. You just want to them to go to where you are already established, so you can dominate them. But, I say, don't worry uber-pirate or elite PVPer. That noob in a Badger will keep trying to run your gate camp. He didn't go to low or null to PVP in the first place.
Kryss Darkdust
The Skulls
#131 - 2013-01-22 11:52:44 UTC
A dueling system is fine, as long as its an addition to and not a replacement for other forms of PvP. War Decs must always exist and they should never be forced to be consentual or fair in anyway. Quite to the contrary I think war should be given some attention in the incentives department in particular to motivate defenders to actually fight.

The reality of Eve is that, if you don't love it like it is today, you should probobly go ahead and unsub. 
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#132 - 2013-01-22 12:35:12 UTC
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:
Here's what I'm reading between the lines: "PVPers" don't want high sec dwellers to be able to PVP in high sec, with CONCORD protection. They want them to go to low or null. If they can "duel" in high sec, they won't have any incentive to risk a trip to more dangerous areas where "PVPers" can gank them without recourse. Also, if they are practicing PVP, they'll be better prepared for confrontations in more dangerous parts of space and might actually be able to deal with "PVPers" when they finally do go to low or null.

I haven't read the whole thread, but in what I read, I didn't see anyone talk about duelers being rendered invincible and ungankable while they were dueling. I didn't see anyone suggest that there could be no cheating, metagaming, shenanigans, or whatever you want to call it in these "duels". And, if we consider the possibility of a mutual war between two 1-man corps, or a drawn out "Limited Engagement" involving just two people, or even just a random contest between two people low sec or null or just flagged as suspect in high sec, then there are ALREADY duels in EVE. If you are arguing against dueling, then you might as well just go ahead and call for an outright ban on PVPing in high sec. That's really what you want, for people to NEED to go to where you can attack them without recourse in order to play the game they want to play. It's just another way of calling for a nerf to high sec. You don't want people to make ISK in high sec. You don't want people to do industry in high sec. You don't want people to "gf" in high sec. You just want to them to go to where you are already established, so you can dominate them. But, I say, don't worry uber-pirate or elite PVPer. That noob in a Badger will keep trying to run your gate camp. He didn't go to low or null to PVP in the first place.


So much hatred, prejudice and misconceptions.

.
Sura Sadiva
Entropic Tactical Crew
#133 - 2013-01-22 13:02:42 UTC
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:
Here's what I'm reading between the lines: "PVPers" don't want high sec dwellers to be able to PVP in high sec, with CONCORD protection. They want them to go to low or null. If they can "duel" in high sec, they won't have any incentive to risk a trip to more dangerous areas where "PVPers" can gank them without recourse. Also, if they are practicing PVP, they'll be better prepared for confrontations in more dangerous parts of space and might actually be able to deal with "PVPers" when they finally do go to low or null.

I haven't read the whole thread, but in what I read, I didn't see anyone talk about duelers being rendered invincible and ungankable while they were dueling. I didn't see anyone suggest that there could be no cheating, metagaming, shenanigans, or whatever you want to call it in these "duels". And, if we consider the possibility of a mutual war between two 1-man corps, or a drawn out "Limited Engagement" involving just two people, or even just a random contest between two people low sec or null or just flagged as suspect in high sec, then there are ALREADY duels in EVE. If you are arguing against dueling, then you might as well just go ahead and call for an outright ban on PVPing in high sec. That's really what you want, for people to NEED to go to where you can attack them without recourse in order to play the game they want to play. It's just another way of calling for a nerf to high sec. You don't want people to make ISK in high sec. You don't want people to do industry in high sec. You don't want people to "gf" in high sec. You just want to them to go to where you are already established, so you can dominate them. But, I say, don't worry uber-pirate or elite PVPer. That noob in a Badger will keep trying to run your gate camp. He didn't go to low or null to PVP in the first place.



Damn, they unveiled our plan.
They are too smart, brothers. Let's drop the mask, insisting is futile.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#134 - 2013-01-22 13:06:50 UTC
Mayhaw Morgan wrote:
Here's what I'm reading between the lines


"Here's the **** that I'm making up"

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
#135 - 2013-01-22 13:16:59 UTC  |  Edited by: TheGunslinger42
The problem with arena pvp is that it's 100% unnecessary, fights can already happen anywhere to anyone.

The only reason it's suggested is because it's a step towards making things "safer" or only consensual.

It's also a slight step away from EVE's "single universe" style ideals, since you'd be creating specific areas that exist only for a specific type of pvp.

Edit: Additionally, I feel it puts limits on the sandbox to introduce a type of or area for pvp in which there are strict rules and which cannot be interfered with by outsiders (whether a third party, or backup because someone else was being dishonest, etc). These kinds of things are a big part of EVE - lying, cheating, finding yourself in a situation that you didn't expect as a result of other players, etc. Making areas or mechanics within EVE that severely limit that is bad.
Solstice Project
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#136 - 2013-01-22 13:18:45 UTC
I'm a con.
I'm sensual.

This confuses me.
adopt
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#137 - 2013-01-22 13:43:19 UTC
As soon as you undock, you're accepting the terms of: Being blown up, harassed, abused, smacked, looted and laughed at. Learned that on day 1, still teach it to the newbies today.
Derath Ellecon
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#138 - 2013-01-22 13:53:42 UTC
How something like this extends to 7+ pages is beyond me. Did anyone even read the dev post about this? All they are doing is adding a mechanic for what used to be can flipping to get a fight. How is that so controversial?

You can still gank.
You can still put out a can to catch unaware noobs.
You can still do all of the other PVP that used to occurr.
You can still have your neutral RR come in and help in your little duel (with the same neutral RR consequences).


Ultimately you can choose to ignore it.
Kryss Darkdust
The Skulls
#139 - 2013-01-22 13:55:50 UTC
Derath Ellecon wrote:
How something like this extends to 7+ pages is beyond me. Did anyone even read the dev post about this? All they are doing is adding a mechanic for what used to be can flipping to get a fight. How is that so controversial?

You can still gank.
You can still put out a can to catch unaware noobs.
You can still do all of the other PVP that used to occurr.
You can still have your neutral RR come in and help in your little duel (with the same neutral RR consequences).


Ultimately you can choose to ignore it.


Clearly you haven't followed the conversation, else you would understand that discussions about making war decs "more fair" has been the hot topic as of late and the dueling system is being used as a "hey this works better, its how war decs should be"... kind of line of thinking.

Its all theorycraft of course, but what isn't on the forums.

The reality of Eve is that, if you don't love it like it is today, you should probobly go ahead and unsub. 
Derath Ellecon
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#140 - 2013-01-22 16:58:17 UTC
Kryss Darkdust wrote:
Derath Ellecon wrote:
How something like this extends to 7+ pages is beyond me. Did anyone even read the dev post about this? All they are doing is adding a mechanic for what used to be can flipping to get a fight. How is that so controversial?

You can still gank.
You can still put out a can to catch unaware noobs.
You can still do all of the other PVP that used to occurr.
You can still have your neutral RR come in and help in your little duel (with the same neutral RR consequences).


Ultimately you can choose to ignore it.


Clearly you haven't followed the conversation, else you would understand that discussions about making war decs "more fair" has been the hot topic as of late and the dueling system is being used as a "hey this works better, its how war decs should be"... kind of line of thinking.

Its all theorycraft of course, but what isn't on the forums.


You are correct. I did not get through all 7 pages. I read the first few. And then the current page, which still seems to be all about arenas (not wardecs) and made the wrong assumption that the thread was still on topic. My bad.