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EVE New Citizens Q&A

 
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Trying to explain EvE to a new player

Author
Henry Haphorn
Killer Yankee
#41 - 2013-01-20 03:41:58 UTC
One way I go about explaining to someone what Eve Online is about is this:

"Permanent Choices and Meaningful Consequences"

Eve Online is like a sandbox. Actually, no. IT IS A SANDBOX! It's a place where you can come in and make a sand castle as beautiful or as crappy as you like. But while you are making that sandbox, you will have to fight for the tools to make that castle. You also have to be weary of people who would come out and kick your castle into a pile of sand. You also have to try to gather enough sand if you want to make a more complex work of art and therefore you must either steal some sand, buy some sand, or negotiate for some sand. But if you are savvy enough and if you are shrewd enough and if you are patient enough, you can monopolize on that sand or on the tools needed for that sand. You can also team up with others (be it hired mercs or corp mates) to help build your project faster or to ensure its safety.

And there is only one rule to follow: Adapt or Die.

There is no hand holding beyond the tutorials because the tutorials are just there to show you how some things work. They are not intended to tell you what career you really want. That is up to you. But you have to be persistent and determined to achieve your goal.

^^This is how I would say it to a newbie.

Adapt or Die

Salpad
Carebears with Attitude
#42 - 2013-01-20 15:10:47 UTC
Kilrayn wrote:
Yeah, I know there isnt a definate answer for this, just hoping to get some ideas and conversation going, with including the new players. Games (and any business for that matter) won't survive without getting new customers interested. I am happy to see a post that doesnt just ignore the idea though, many thanks.

Edit: Keep the ideas coming. That's the only way to figure out a complicated issue. Ideas, thought, and debate.


I don't think there is anything CCP can do to alleviate the sandbox thing.

Some players, probably the majority of the human species, cannot adapt to sandbox. They will never become EVE subscribers.

But of the minority who can, some might still become lost and unsubscribe, even though they are fit to play with the sand. As I said, I can't see what more CCP can do, but I do think players can do something: We can invite in new players, take them along when we do stuff, get them involved, offer them the opportunity to help us with our projects, in exchange for fun or profit or both.

Right now I'm mostly doing things that don't work that way, but some years ago I was flying a lot of missions, and missioning invovles fights against rats both large and small. Usually mission ships (barring T3) are fitted so they're optimal argainst large rats, which means you only have a tiny fleet of T2 drones to eat the small rats before they warp scramble you.

This is where a wingman can enter the picture, a secondary pilot who flies a smaller ship, whose duty is to kill the small rats and if needed to to die, in his cheap ship so that your expensive ship can warp out.

Many other in-game activities may have similar potential for involving noobs. Sometimes that might cut into your profits, though, such as in commie-style mining ops where you share the ISK evenly, without regard to the fact that some of the participants mined in noob frigates and others in Hulks with T2/T2 strippers.
Salpad
Carebears with Attitude
#43 - 2013-01-20 15:15:51 UTC
Ovv Topik wrote:
I think these types of noobs tend to get to the end of the tutorials, and say: “well this sucks!”, and disappear.

They just don’t get it.


You're correct. I'm such a naturally born sandboxer that I basically didn't do any of the tutorials six years ago, except for a very few of them (and probably only some of the way). I had gotten EVE's sandbox, even before I started playing.

But it would be a mistake to rely only on those very, very few who are naturally born sandboxers, such as me. For every me, there's at least a dozen who can learn the sandbox and if shown it, if introduced to it properly, will grow to love it.

Mind you, for every one of me, there's many dozens of people who can't ever get it. We mustn't delude ourselves into assuming that the target audience for EVE consists of 7 billion people. It's much smaller than that. But there is a subset of noob players who unsubscrube, but who shouldn't have. A subset who become lost to EVE.
Salpad
Carebears with Attitude
#44 - 2013-01-20 15:26:23 UTC
Barakach wrote:
I'm kind of in that "I'm a newb" boat. I've been researching potential paths to take in EvE.

I'm thinking of joining the EvE Uni for some good hand-holding and learning how to work in a group. I'm playing EvE so I can play with others, but I don't want to hold anyone back or make stupid mistakes. I need a learning environment that is a little more professional than "sucks to be you".


I'm the kind of player who likes helping noobs. I'm always ready to donate a tiny fraction of a percent of my several billion ISK, because I know it means a lot to noobs (even though I still strive to figure out the best amount to donate - I was given 20 or 25 million when I was a couple of weeks old, and that was too much: I wasted it), but I also like to help, give advice, and teach.

But where does one find noobs? I sometimes find noobs in my local language chat, Dansk. but not very often. In the almost six years that I've played EVE, I've encountered much fewer noobs than I'd like.

Where are they? Where do they hide?

Of course, part of my motivation is recruitment. Find a bunch of noobs and help them, and then a subset of those might be found suitable to join my corp. But I also do genuinely like to help people.
Salpad
Carebears with Attitude
#45 - 2013-01-20 15:35:31 UTC
Tyberius Koto wrote:
CerN Frostwolf wrote:
I think the best thing CCP could do, is to add more epic arcs in after sisters of eve, and just give you arcs, that you can do for a month or so till you start figuring things out by yourself.


I would have to disagree with this, it sounds good on paper, but all it does is postpones the inevitable. More Missions just leads the player further down the thought process of a theme park mmo. If all a player does is mission arc after mission arc, they really aren't learning about other aspects of eve. Perhaps they just need to do a better job explaining how to search for a mission agent that best suites the individual players needs, do they want to do mining missions, distribution, or security. That way if they want to continue with missions, they will know how to proceed.

Just off the top of my head, perhaps an advanced tutorial to guide a player to where they want to go based on a series of questions, much like the one on the website, but it helps guide them in game, want to PVP, guide them to their faction office and lowsec for example.


I think perhaps the solution is to gradually teach the noobs to think for themselves.

Start with some highly scripted and guided tutorial missions. Tutorial tier 1. These offer missions that each have one way to solve, and the noob is told explicitly how to solve them.

Next comes some tutorial mission chains that are tier 2. These are slightly open-ended, most but not all having several methods for completing then.

Then tier 3, more open-ended again.

Then tier 4, almost abstract goals.

Then maybe tier 5, stuff like gain standing 8.50 with Caldari Navy or 4.50 with Caldari State. Or mine one million veldspar. Obviously, these should have very long expiration times, and no penalty upon expiration.

No, the tier 5 thing is only half serious. But I do think the gradual thing might work.
Henry Haphorn
Killer Yankee
#46 - 2013-01-20 17:41:00 UTC
@Salpad

The tier process actually sounds like it's what we're looking for. A steady weaning process that conditions the player into having to improvise to achieve a goal. There is at least one such career mission that does that, but it's very insignificant. It's a simple mission that asks for a set amount of one mineral type. But the agent told me to acquire it however I see fit to meet the order. This gave me the option to either:

A. Mine for the mineral.

B. Purchase the mineral off the market.

C. Steal the mineral from someone who is jet can mining.

D. Reprocess whatever useless mods you have hoarded over time to get the mineral you need.

Adapt or Die

Fractal Muse
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#47 - 2013-01-22 01:28:33 UTC
J'Poll wrote:

I know about the EVElopedia links. Problem with those are that some are horribly out of date and some only give very limited and very technical information. Why not give them links to other things (player made) too. Give them links to Yoututube videos (would be great if we can also look at them with the IGB eventually), give them links to other guides. It might / will make some people stay instead of leave EVE, for those who just don't want to read anything, well EVE won't be the game for them any way.

The EVE Tutorials should link to nothing outside of EVE. That's the lazy way out and it is an additional step that new players have to take which breaks their interest in the game since it pulls them away from the game.

If CCP wants to create tutorials or hire / pay / ask players who have done great ones to do them that's fine but they shouldn't be linking outside of the game for things that they should be providing.

If videos would be useful then they need to be internal to EVE's client.

But, that's really just a crutch to get around something that wasn't properly or adequately explained and doesn't fix the underlying issue.

EVE's tutorials are good (for the most part) but they fall short in explaining a lot of core concepts. That's a failure that needs to be addressed by CCP. CCP needs to continue to focus on the New User Experience and continue to improve it.

A new user to EVE needs to be encouraged to think for themselves and act for themselves. There needs to be a series of mission objectives that can be accomplished multiple ways with the mission listing off the possibilities and ending with something like, "And if you can think of another way to get it done then do it that way instead."

The structure of these transitional missions should be fundamentally different than directed gameplay. Transitional missions need to be guided gameplay - in that EVE provides guidance on how to complete the mission but doesn't direct the player step by step to do accomplish the mission objective instead the mission would provide guidance as to possibilities on how to get it done and leave it up to the player to figure out.

So for mining add in a mining mission that instead of directing a user to a deadspace location with an asteroid and telling the player what to do the guided mission would be, "bring X mineral to me." In the mission description a list of ways to find the mineral would be listed like: Mine it, buy it, steal it, or reprocess it.

The same can be done with each of the 'career paths' so that new players could get their feet wet and open their eyes a little to the possibilities of self-directed gameplay. Emergent gameplay is something that many players would love in theory but, in reality, they aren't given the confidence or tools to pursue after completing the current EVE tutorials. A seed of confidence in trying things out and experimenting should be provided to new players.

The reason why there are soooo many miners and mission runners in EVE is simple - that's how the tutorials guide new players. And since that is what they were shown that is what they will do.

A lot of new players say they want to do things like pvp and then follow up that saying with a, "but I don't know how." Which is, really, just a way of saying they aren't confident with the mechanics to be able to test it out themselves.

And if new players finish up the tutorials lacking confidence in core aspects of the game then there is room for improvement in the New User Experience.
dark heartt
#48 - 2013-01-22 06:37:27 UTC
Lost Greybeard wrote:
They just don't like it, and prefer to spend their leisure time doing something with a clearly-defined goal.


I think that's the main issue that people who come to Eve from elsewhere struggle with. They've been playing the 'go here, kill x, take y, repeat" style of MMO, then Eve's first hours are all missions in the same sort of idea, but after that the freedom of choice confuses them.

As far as explaining Eve to newbs, I always say this:

Eve is a game where you set your own goals, not follow someone else's. You can join a corp or alliance and help them achieve their goals, but you made the choice to do that. You can fight, or you can mine. You can steal, or you can build. But the point is that everything you do, you do because its what you want, not what the Devs, your CEO or anyone else wants you to do. The best thing you can do now is read about the different options you have before you. Join the help channel, E-Uni or some other place where you can talk to people who know what they are on about.

But don't let anyone say that the choice you made is bad. If you want to mine, then go and crush that space rock for profit because that's your goal. If you want to shoot stuff, then go and smash some hulls because thats your goal. DEFINE your own path then follow that.
Mamucha
Rookie Empire Citizens
#49 - 2013-01-22 07:48:33 UTC
Maybe its not EvE, maybe its people that are so used to being told what to do that they get confused when they are offered freedom of choise.

Maybe we should create default answer to these confused people: join a corp..or something...

But then again for me biggest hook on this game was its open world where i can choose myself what to do next...

We were recruiting.

4runner
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#50 - 2013-01-22 13:33:21 UTC
LOL, in early 2004 you were kicked out of station with no skills, empty wallet and something that looked like a tutorial but wasn't really.

Now new players get so spoon fed with tutorials and skill boost modules and such that if you have no idea what the hell you are doing in this game after the tutorial this is not really a game for you, some people don't grasp this open sandbox thingy and are better suited with the more generic type of MMO's, Take quest, do it deliver it, when on lvl 70, create a new character and do the same thing again, OFC EVE has missions but for new players that don't really get the game they seem much tougher than games like WOW or GW and such
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