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[Retribution 1.1] Armor Tanking 1.5

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MisterNick
The Sagan Clan
#301 - 2013-01-22 09:59:39 UTC
Good news for Hyperion, Active Domi, and Incursus pilots Pirate

I can't see the mediums being used much though really - a triple T2 rep Myrm will still tank more and without that deadly reload time. Might see the odd one on a Brutix to make it more survivable.

In all, good to see a little love for Armour.

"Human beings make life so interesting. Do you know that in a universe so full of wonders, they have managed to invent boredom."
Titus McVanders
xTESLAx
#302 - 2013-01-22 10:02:35 UTC
Roime wrote:
Vimsy Vortis wrote:
Even as someone who exclusively flies armor ships I want to see the asymmetry beyween shield and armor preserved and an armor repairer you can load with cap boosters for 0 cap repping blurs that considerably.


Cool then that there is no such module, AAR uses cap even when loaded with cap boosters.


^^This^^

All the charges do is multiply the amount repped.
Shaak'Ti
The Public Enemy.
#303 - 2013-01-22 10:21:48 UTC
Roime wrote:
Garviel Tarrant wrote:

Because its going to be better? do you realise how much 2.25 more is? Without gimping your fittings?


2.25*crap != good?

MAAR: 742.5 hp / 9s * 9 = 6682 hp
XLASB: 980 hp / 5s * 9 = 8820 hp

Please note that this is indeed on an armor rep-bonused ship.

AAR reps come at the end of much longer cycle, which makes it considerably harder to use economically compared to ASB. Maybe this is a way to balance the fact that they also rep less and can be completely neuted out, idk.

Both fit without gimping "your fittings", with the difference that you can fit two XLASBs if you are willing to "gimp the ship"- which in this case means you will have more tank and dps than an armor fit.

vOv


1.

I never used armor rep ships in PVP without capacitor booster before. so who cares neuts?

2.

XLASB after 45 sec SHORTer and HARDERr tanking say: I'm out 1min brb( or kill your cap if u still have).. u gonna die
while
MAAR after 81 sec LONGer but still BETTER THAN T2 rep tanking say: oh, I'm a bit lazy now, but still rep you.. I hope u killed enough DPS to it be enough..

that's difference.. that's why 2 type of tankig.. choose what u want.. fit where u want.. and kill moar than talk and cry..
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#304 - 2013-01-22 10:23:33 UTC
If we forget the miserable 7.5% hull bonus ships for a moment, the AAR looks like a super interesting module on plate+repper fits.

800mm II + RAH + DCU II + MAAR I on an Ishtar seems to have pretty incredible potential compared to same set with a MAR II, also considering the nice improvements to agility and speed.




.
Rick Rymes
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#305 - 2013-01-22 10:24:59 UTC
Big question is....

When can i try it out on SISI?
Iyacia Cyric'ai
Lai Dai Counterintelligence
#306 - 2013-01-22 10:27:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Iyacia Cyric'ai
Roime wrote:
Garviel Tarrant wrote:

Because its going to be better? do you realise how much 2.25 more is? Without gimping your fittings?


2.25*crap != good?

MAAR: 742.5 hp / 9s * 9 = 6682 hp
XLASB: 980 hp / 5s * 9 = 8820 hp

Please note that this is indeed on an armor rep-bonused ship.

AAR reps come at the end of much longer cycle, which makes it considerably harder to use economically compared to ASB. Maybe this is a way to balance the fact that they also rep less and can be completely neuted out, idk.

Both fit without gimping "your fittings", with the difference that you can fit two XLASBs if you are willing to "gimp the ship"- which in this case means you will have more tank and dps than an armor fit.

vOv
Did you just compare a MEDIUM module to an X-Large module and decide that the medium was **** because it wasn't as good as the X-Large module?

HURRRRRRRRRRR!

And given the the new slot layout of the Myrm, do you know how much tackle you'll have with a dual ASB fit? Have fun trying to apply that damage.
Taya Farrago
Eoghar Navy
#307 - 2013-01-22 10:29:00 UTC
M0ISHE wrote:
One simple question.

Could you make damage mods (IE for drones and guns) fit mids AND lows so we don't have to give up damage to armor tank?

The drone damage mods are a wonderful thing but they force me to shield tank in Gallente ships...

Thank you


An idea may be to make the drone damage mods high-slot and buff the bonus quite a bit. Maybe add tracking and script them too to switch between tracking and dps.

OR just make drone controls for subcaps, moar drones! while sacrificing guns/neuts, would boost the life of smartbombs too.

This would allow true sub-capital droneboats without getting unfair dis-/advantages dps-wise.


Back onto the armor changes:
Think my myrm just got a potential boner.Pirate
Just have to wait and see how it fits. (would be nice to buff the nos's a bit too)
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#308 - 2013-01-22 10:39:44 UTC
Shaak'Ti wrote:

1.

I never used armor rep ships in PVP without capacitor booster before. so who cares neuts?


Me neither, because it's impossible. But even with a cap booster, your tank can and will still be stopped by neuts. ASB can't be neuted out.

Quote:

2.

XLASB after 45 sec SHORTer and HARDERr tanking say: I'm out 1min brb( or kill your cap if u still have).. u gonna die
while
MAAR after 81 sec LONGer but still BETTER THAN T2 rep tanking say: oh, I'm a bit lazy now, but still rep you.. I hope u killed enough DPS to it be enough..

that's difference.. that's why 2 type of tankig.. choose what u want.. fit where u want.. and kill moar than talk and cry..


Do people really fly active tanks like that :D pres butan and keep it cycling until it runs out of charges, then zomg?

What you get in reality is X amount reps every X seconds. You don't get somehow magic LONGer tank, it just means that you have to wait longer between rep cycles, which rep less in the first place.

And no, MAAR in lazy mode is not enough to tank even the weakest frigates, it will be good for repping between fights where the booster-charged part was enough.

But then again you could have just fitted and ASB, tanked more, did more damage and have no cap worries, and your shields would heal between fights automatically.

.
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#309 - 2013-01-22 10:52:28 UTC
Iyacia Cyric'ai wrote:
Did you just compare a MEDIUM module to an X-Large module and decide that the medium was **** because it wasn't as good as the X-Large module?

HURRRRRRRRRRR!

And given the the new slot layout of the Myrm, do you know how much tackle you'll have with a dual ASB fit? Have fun trying to apply that damage.


Hurr hurr, I did just that. You know why? You can't fit Large Reppers on BCs and cruisers, but you can fit XLASBs.

New Myrm has the same amount of mid slots as current one, meaning that you only have room for a scram with ASB tank. So yes, armor tank opens up mids for excellent tackle (point+dual webs). Does this somehow affect the tanking figures we are discussing?

Anyway, new Myrm, if it and the tank modules are released like this, 800mm plate + MAAR fit looks much more interesting than multirep fits. Maybe they will be old skool now, MAAR looks like a T2 dual rep fit, but leaves room for a DDA... and is not as slow as before.

7.5% hull bonus is still underwhelming :)



.
Galatea Galilei
Summa Universalia
#310 - 2013-01-22 10:55:19 UTC
Rick Rymes wrote:
Very true, just best to put it out there, i mean the armor changes also mean that the speed difference will be slighter, which i believe has been the thorn in the side of armor tankers for a long time, and am i right in assuming that an armor myrm will have more buffer than a shield myrm?

No, quite the opposite.
Rick Rymes
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#311 - 2013-01-22 10:56:34 UTC
So in theory

The AAR reps over twice that of a T1 Armor rep, the Incursus should only need one to achieve around the same as dual repping Straight

Add on that this mod runs on cap charges, you don't necessarily need a cap booster, which frees a mid for a web Blink

And because a AAR acts as two reps, you also technically have an extra low as well, which can be used to add more buffer/speed/damage Smile

And because you are using one AAR instead of two reps you should in theory have more fitting for other stuff Big smile

But to top it off you no longer have a severe speed penalty on an already fast ship even with armor rigs Lol

Did the toughest T1 frig just up its game???
Nikuno
Atomic Heroes
#312 - 2013-01-22 11:04:43 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:


Ancillary Armor Repairer

  • Always uses the same cap as a normal (T1/T2/Named) Armor Repper
  • When not loaded with a cap booster, has 3/4 the rep amount as a T1 Armor Repairer
  • Loaded cap boosters triple rep amount (so reps 2.25x a T1 repairer when loaded)


    • Quick Q&A about the AAR:
  • Why keep the cap use consistent?
    • The elimination of cap consumption when loaded is a huge advantage of ASBs, but we decided with the AAR to build the strengths in another direction, focusing on greater stability instead. In addition, one downside of the ASB's zero cap use is the inability of one player to influence the tank of another through neuts. This works ok for the ASB but I am not inclined to expand that mechanic further.


    OK, I may have misunderstood how this is going to work, but following on from comments above can you please clarify if this is correct?

    I load the AAR with cap boost charges. I turn it on and it consumes a charge which increases the rep to 2.25x t1 rep/s but ALSO consumes the regular amount of cap from my ship?

    I leave the AAR without charges and it reps 0.75x t1 rep/s and consumes the regular amount of cap from my ship?

    This is fundamental to understanding this thing.
    Galatea Galilei
    Summa Universalia
    #313 - 2013-01-22 11:09:14 UTC
    Iyacia Cyric'ai wrote:
    Shield Myrm sacrifices on either tackle (which gives it more DPS) or on the ability to permatank. Less EFT, more actual PvP please.

    Eh? (checks OP...)

    Galatea Galilei wrote:
    Coming from a PvE perspective...

    Less snide comments, more actual reading skills please.
    Garviel Tarrant
    Beyond Divinity Inc
    Shadow Cartel
    #314 - 2013-01-22 11:12:12 UTC
    Roime wrote:
    Iyacia Cyric'ai wrote:
    Did you just compare a MEDIUM module to an X-Large module and decide that the medium was **** because it wasn't as good as the X-Large module?

    HURRRRRRRRRRR!

    And given the the new slot layout of the Myrm, do you know how much tackle you'll have with a dual ASB fit? Have fun trying to apply that damage.


    Hurr hurr, I did just that. You know why? You can't fit Large Reppers on BCs and cruisers, but you can fit XLASBs.

    New Myrm has the same amount of mid slots as current one, meaning that you only have room for a scram with ASB tank. So yes, armor tank opens up mids for excellent tackle (point+dual webs). Does this somehow affect the tanking figures we are discussing?

    Anyway, new Myrm, if it and the tank modules are released like this, 800mm plate + MAAR fit looks much more interesting than multirep fits. Maybe they will be old skool now, MAAR looks like a T2 dual rep fit, but leaves room for a DDA... and is not as slow as before.

    7.5% hull bonus is still underwhelming :)






    You're ignoring cycle times. The AAR reps for over a minute while the XLASB reps for about half.

    BYDI recruitment closed-ish

    Roime
    Mea Culpa.
    Shadow Cartel
    #315 - 2013-01-22 11:23:10 UTC
    Realize that you are actually saying that it takes twice as long for AAR to rep 24% less damage.

    .
    Dzajic
    #316 - 2013-01-22 11:25:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Dzajic
    There are still many pointless modules completely unaddressed by this change!

    50mm and 100mm plates remain a useless joke. Old "regenerative" now layered plating and energized layered plating are still pointless. Why ever use them when omni resist modules give more. Must there poor forgotten modules wait until next armor iteration 10 years from now? Either give them all a purpose or delete them from game.


    Back to rig changes. Bad bad bad. With new rigs and if you fit all 3 rigs for active tank you will have LAR II take 2650 grid , and MAR II take 200 grid. Dual or triple rep setups become ridiculously tight on gird. So to go around new "helpful" rig change, you have to drop one tanking rig for ACR to get some extra grid. If your setup wasn't already tight enough that it needed a acr.

    While at same time effects/bonuses of modules and rigs are unchanged.


    As with ASBs, new ancillary module become mandatory base of all setups, and its standard reps that become auxiliary help to keep you alive while new gimmicky module is on reload.
    CCP Fozzie
    C C P
    C C P Alliance
    #317 - 2013-01-22 11:25:37 UTC
    Just wanted to check in and say I've read all the posts I missed overnight, and after I get a few other things done at work I'm coming back to draft a more sizable reply to some of the issues and questions brought up so far.

    As always thanks to you all for taking the time to give us feedback.

    Game Designer | Team Five-0

    Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
    Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie
    Tsunayoshi Sawada
    The Scope
    Gallente Federation
    #318 - 2013-01-22 11:28:19 UTC
    Core imbalances are still on ignore...

    Hello i'm shieldtanked and i got 235255 times more rep burst than you ! (thanks boost amps)
    Hello i'm shieldtanked and can still do shitload of dps or be superfast !
    You are armor tanked ? byebye damagemods ! bye bye speed !

    What do armortanking has in return ? scrams and webs ? come on..


    So same problems since a few years, everything that active armortanking can do, active shieldtanking does it better.

    Come on CCP.. open your eyes.
    Magic Crisp
    Amarrian Micro Devices
    #319 - 2013-01-22 11:36:40 UTC
    CCP Fozzie wrote:
    fukier wrote:
    CCP Fozzie wrote:
    IamBeastx wrote:
    So your screwing over active tanking armor ships by limiting there PG for weaponry: Or are you changing the PG requirements of reppers?

    I see no changes to buffer fits, are we gonna still be fat and slow when we fit trimarks/resists, why aren't you changing buffer?

    This over complicated AAR does not entice me to active armor tank anything with a small cargohold., what calculations have you done in reference to increased cap booster cargo space needed?


    It's far easier to get around a slight PG reduction than the speed reduction.

    There's a whole section entitled Plates you should probably read it.

    You completely free to not use the AAR on ships with small cargoholds, I give you permission.



    how come you avoid talking about scaleability of active armor rep bonus and how its useless in fleet warfare?

    its an easy fix just make the skill affect external incomming armor RR!

    presto now the bonus is usefull for anything larger then 5 ships!


    And also super overpowered.


    Uhm, no? Let me remind you that the faildari and amarrian ships have a resist bonus, which also effects remote reps, but you don't consider them overpowered. Also, having the hull's rep bonus applied to incoming remote reps won't protect the vessel from alpha strikes, which the resist bonuses do. I think it's vica-versa, the resist bonus is overpowered compared to the rep amount bonus, no matter whether you apply it to remote reps or not.
    Wacktopia
    Fleet-Up.com
    Keep It Simple Software Group
    #320 - 2013-01-22 11:50:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Wacktopia
    Question: Why did you decide not to go for the 20% drop on 1600s'?

    Do the new rigs work on Capitals?
    Edit: Aparently not. Prob makes sense given there is no shield equiv. Wait.... there are shield caps?!?! LolLolLol

    Kitchen sink? Seriousy, get your ship together -  Fleet-Up.com