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Minmatar are going to become the crap, CCP wants retribution not balance
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Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#121 - 2013-01-21 20:58:10 UTC
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
They better not mess with the phoon's sig radius (320m) or overall speed.



They're destroying the Cyclone, don't count on the Phoon staying worth a damn either.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Aralieus
Shadowbane Syndicate
#122 - 2013-01-21 22:36:59 UTC
Maeltstome wrote:
Aralieus wrote:
Maeltstome wrote:

So keep your short-sighted and non-constructive posts to yourself please.



Everything else you said didn't really matter but i will address this concern of yours. I base what I said off of what I know and apparently CCP has known for quite sometime.


This has been a stark reminder as to why i don't reply to people with a tiny bit of experience and a huge chip on their shoulder based on that experience. Good luck in life.



Oh I'm sorry I must have missed the part in the tutorial where it said I needed to justify myself to some randy on the forums, would you be a gent and point that part out to me so I know better next time. If you must know I have been in and out of Eve since 03' so if my knowledge of the game is in question by you then you need to ask me more specific questions instead of assuming I know nothing when I speak on a matter I have been interested in before you even hit the 'Create' button.

Oderint Dum Metuant
Valea Silpha
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#123 - 2013-01-22 06:29:31 UTC
It's always funny to see peoples reactions to things becoming less brokenly overpowered. Once upon a time people were being pissy because their blatantly overpowered nanoships, nos domis or sensor damps would be merely 'pretty good' instead of 'obviously the best'.

For a very very very long time minmatar has been perhaps not brokenly overpowered but have been abnormally good. That seems slated to change. And maybe CCP will think about dialing back on some of the changes in a while if it transpires that minmatar have been made too bad. It is next to impossible to make significant balance changes without making the present 'good' ships look less good. I mean... they are balance changes. Obviously that'll affect what ships seem good or bad.

Compared to huge nerfs that have come before, these changes are mild, and in lots of cases very over-due. They have not radically overpowered or underpowered anything. Even where ships seem weaker than the average, they are not so terrible as to be totally useless, just less perfect. We are moving towards a situation where things aren't better or worse, just different. I'm sure there'll be a few eggs broken along the way, and those will get tweaked and rebalanced until its just right.

For a lot of people, eve has always been about flying the most over powered ship around and pwning all with your magnificent doom-boat. CCP wants that to be in the past. They want every ship to be a plausible choice, and for no ship to rule them all. If you can't enjoy the game without the cheat codes... Well maybe you're a terrible person who thinks that cheap easy kills against people you radically outclass make you good at eve. I'm afraid you'll have to find some other way to get your kicks, perhaps take up scamming ?
Sinigr Shadowsong
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#124 - 2013-01-22 09:31:01 UTC
People that compare raw DPS/EHP of ships to call for balance changes are often forget or deliberately ignore that there are much more factors.

List of some advantages that Minmatar ships in general have:

1. Only weapon system that has both selectable damage type and range on ammo. Missiles come close to it but cannot trade damage for range if needed and are more often than not cannot exploit weakness because of kinetic bonus.
2. Also works great for PvE. Minmatar ships are suited great for virtually any region and rat types that exists in game. If you think that it's not an advantage try to make missions (or complexes) against Agnels on laser boat.
3. Vast power grid on ships just because artillery exists. This leads to easiest fitting of all ships. Pre-nerf Hurricane could be fitted for 425mm + 2 Neuts with MWD and shield tank using no fittings skills beside Weapons Upgrades 4. Compare it to fitting a Harbinger.
4. Turrets that don't use capacitor at all.
5. High utility slots with cap-less weapons. Most missile ships dont have either utility slot or PG/CPU to fit something meaningful there. Meanwhile for minmatar this is a hefty bonus that forum posters tend to "forget".
6. Ability to choose between armor and shield. You are not forced to train them both since most minmatar ship are either shield-based or can be fitted with shield anyway. Those that are not suide for shield tanking at all may be painlessly replaced by another minmatar ship of same class with same weapon system.
7. Agility and speed advantage. 2-3 seconds fewer warp initiation are often a difference between lucky escape or painful ship loss.
8. Artillery with unique flavour of alfa which changes playstyle drastically.

Quote:
where am I going to use medium autocannons now?

Where am I going to use medium beam lasers now?
W0lf Crendraven
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#125 - 2013-01-22 10:36:05 UTC
New cyclone will be pretty awesome. Single xlasb ham kiting fits are pretty much like faster podla drakes of old, with dual medium neuts more speed and agility with more ehp once the booster has run through and more cap! Even a buffer fit is reasonable well off.

Harbi gets buffed and if you know how to use it it already is one of the best bcs out there (600dps to 30km, 45k ehp, faster then a podla drake (2k with lg snaes/links) + medium neut+ more drones). Its on paper dps may not reach cane + hail lvl but due to its projection it is simply awesome (its like a kiting omen with twice the ehp and 50% more dps)!

Stabber sucks at actual pvp but its awesome at what its supposed to be, a training vessal for the cyna/vaga and it does this perfectly.


Yes minmatar ships get/got nerfed, but who cares. Angel ships still rule, they have the best cs, very good dessies, the arty wolf/thrasher. The best dictor and pretty cool bs! The new cyclone will be boss.
Iyacia Cyric'ai
Lai Dai Counterintelligence
#126 - 2013-01-22 10:42:26 UTC
QQQQQQQQ! My minmatar ship doesn't so obviously outclass those of every other race! I may have to depend on skill to win now!!!
Maeltstome
Ten Thousand Days
#127 - 2013-01-22 14:00:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Maeltstome
Buzzmong wrote:
You know, I remember when Minmatar were considered the worst race for a long time (Rifter excepted, as until recently it was the king of frigates).

And you know what was even more interesting?

People feared fighting them.

They feared them because the people flying them were sh*t hot PVPers, who were taking ships that were noticably bad and doing serious damage with them by flying them to their strengths and coming up with interesting fits and tactics.


My point with all this?

So what if they're getting nerfed a bit, CCP have overbuffed them by lots of various direct and indirect buffs and are now fixing it, but they're still going to be very capable ships in the hands of good pilots.

The question is whether you think you can rise to the challenge like the pilots of old by proving that they're still deadly ships in the hands of a skilled pilot, or if you're going to sit and whine about losing your various advantages and proving to the world you're not the skilled pilot you make yourself out to be.

The decision is yours.



Yea but they nerfed NOS, ECM, DAMP's, TD's and buffed other weapon types. This isn't 2007. Utility on non-bonused ships is situational at best. 90% of fights come down to raw HP and DPS.
callyptic
Red vs Blue Flight Academy
#128 - 2013-01-22 14:34:23 UTC  |  Edited by: callyptic
I personally do feel that minnie are a tad weaker now.

Before we could pick a fit with anyone.

Now we have to decide a little.

This is no different than to any other race but we have the added luxury of being able to vary our fits.

Basicly minmatar have issues against missile boats atm. Cant outrun them effectively and do not have the natural resists to tank it effectively. We can have both very decent setups for kiting Tanking and DPS. We just have to pick and hope are decision is right.

The biggest issue i have had against non minmatar pilots are TD's. There needs to be an effective counter for missiles.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#129 - 2013-01-22 15:03:51 UTC
Maeltstome wrote:

Yea but they nerfed NOS, ECM, DAMP's, TD's and buffed other weapon types. This isn't 2007. Utility on non-bonused ships is situational at best. 90% of fights come down to raw HP and DPS.


lol, no. That's just wrong. Maybe that's why we never see eye to eye on PVP.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Hidden Snake
Inglorious-Basterds
#130 - 2013-01-22 15:15:38 UTC
well I guess BC reballance will be more thought through before unleashing the patch. Minnies looks more weak then the other now. But kiting cyclone is one of my favorite theorycraft.

ad minnie cruisers ... well ruppie kinda sucks compare to the rest and stabber is oversized AF now, no more cruiser.

Hidden Snake
Inglorious-Basterds
#131 - 2013-01-22 15:17:51 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Maeltstome wrote:

Yea but they nerfed NOS, ECM, DAMP's, TD's and buffed other weapon types. This isn't 2007. Utility on non-bonused ships is situational at best. 90% of fights come down to raw HP and DPS.


lol, no. That's just wrong. Maybe that's why we never see eye to eye on PVP.

-Liang



utility slots are very very very useful ... have you ever fought heron in past few weeks?
Vilnius Zar
SDC Multi Ten
#132 - 2013-01-22 15:58:48 UTC
Maeltstome wrote:
Yea but they nerfed NOS, ECM, DAMP's, TD's and buffed other weapon types. This isn't 2007. Utility on non-bonused ships is situational at best. 90% of fights come down to raw HP and DPS.


Ok...
Maeltstome
Ten Thousand Days
#133 - 2013-01-22 16:05:23 UTC
Hidden Snake wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
Maeltstome wrote:

Yea but they nerfed NOS, ECM, DAMP's, TD's and buffed other weapon types. This isn't 2007. Utility on non-bonused ships is situational at best. 90% of fights come down to raw HP and DPS.


lol, no. That's just wrong. Maybe that's why we never see eye to eye on PVP.

-Liang



utility slots are very very very useful ... have you ever fought heron in past few weeks?


No but i've fought plenty of 250k EHP 1000DPS proteus that i have no chance of killing and who can disengage and dock/jump.

Seen many of them around in your E-War heron? those 30KM scrams are definately scared of you.
W0lf Crendraven
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#134 - 2013-01-22 16:20:15 UTC
Maeltstome wrote:
Hidden Snake wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
Maeltstome wrote:

Yea but they nerfed NOS, ECM, DAMP's, TD's and buffed other weapon types. This isn't 2007. Utility on non-bonused ships is situational at best. 90% of fights come down to raw HP and DPS.


lol, no. That's just wrong. Maybe that's why we never see eye to eye on PVP.

-Liang



utility slots are very very very useful ... have you ever fought heron in past few weeks?


No but i've fought plenty of 250k EHP 1000DPS proteus that i have no chance of killing and who can disengage and dock/jump.

Seen many of them around in your E-War heron? those 30KM scrams are definately scared of you.


Thats cause you were fighting on station/gates, two condors could kill such a proteus. Just cause unbonused ewar isnt very usefull on SOLO cruisers/bcs/bs doesnt mean its worthless. It works very well on frigates (dual dampening/tding condor springs to mind), in fleets unbonused tds/damps can be very usefull aswella s neuts (not on your list, yet utility).


Seriously, the only place where minmatar is a bit weak atm is tech1 crusiers (and maybe t1 frigs), new cyclone will be awesome so it becomes the new (old) cane. For the rest minmatar is doing well.
Maeltstome
Ten Thousand Days
#135 - 2013-01-22 16:28:27 UTC
W0lf Crendraven wrote:
Maeltstome wrote:
Hidden Snake wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
Maeltstome wrote:

Yea but they nerfed NOS, ECM, DAMP's, TD's and buffed other weapon types. This isn't 2007. Utility on non-bonused ships is situational at best. 90% of fights come down to raw HP and DPS.


lol, no. That's just wrong. Maybe that's why we never see eye to eye on PVP.

-Liang



utility slots are very very very useful ... have you ever fought heron in past few weeks?


No but i've fought plenty of 250k EHP 1000DPS proteus that i have no chance of killing and who can disengage and dock/jump.

Seen many of them around in your E-War heron? those 30KM scrams are definately scared of you.


Thats cause you were fighting on station/gates, two condors could kill such a proteus. Just cause unbonused ewar isnt very usefull on SOLO cruisers/bcs/bs doesnt mean its worthless. It works very well on frigates (dual dampening/tding condor springs to mind), in fleets unbonused tds/damps can be very usefull aswella s neuts (not on your list, yet utility).


Seriously, the only place where minmatar is a bit weak atm is tech1 crusiers (and maybe t1 frigs), new cyclone will be awesome so it becomes the new (old) cane. For the rest minmatar is doing well.


If you aren't fighting on stations/gates then you're doing it wrong. All fighting happens on a station, gate or POS. The later being a massive cluster **** situation. If people aggress you nowhere near any of those things then you are fighting over nothing, in which case its just for fun and the outcome means nothing.

And btw last time i check the proteus can carry a flight of 5 warriors. That 30km scram will lock those condors down unless you have a linked/overheated faction point on them.

Oh sorry. If you warped into a bubble you would also be fighting outside of those situations - until the Proteus MWD'd and tanked your damage to reach a station/gate.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#136 - 2013-01-22 16:47:08 UTC
Maeltstome wrote:

No but i've fought plenty of 250k EHP 1000DPS proteus that i have no chance of killing and who can disengage and dock/jump.

Seen many of them around in your E-War heron? those 30KM scrams are definately scared of you.


I don't see how you have no chance to kill it. Are you expecting it to be able to fire its guns without capacitor or are you expecting to run out of ammo before it dies with 250k EHP? The power of utility slots is quite powerful.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#137 - 2013-01-22 16:49:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
Maeltstome wrote:

If you aren't fighting on stations/gates then you're doing it wrong. All fighting happens on a station, gate or POS. The later being a massive cluster **** situation. If people aggress you nowhere near any of those things then you are fighting over nothing, in which case its just for fun and the outcome means nothing.

And btw last time i check the proteus can carry a flight of 5 warriors. That 30km scram will lock those condors down unless you have a linked/overheated faction point on them.

Oh sorry. If you warped into a bubble you would also be fighting outside of those situations - until the Proteus MWD'd and tanked your damage to reach a station/gate.


Not even a noticeable percentage of fights happen at a station, gate, or POS.

-Liang

Ed: Also, bring your 5 warriors for my Condor. Pretty sure the fight will work out like this: http://kb.heretic-army.biz/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=44756

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#138 - 2013-01-22 16:58:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Garviel Tarrant
I'm a failbukkit that can't tell the difference between the edit and quote button.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#139 - 2013-01-22 17:00:06 UTC
bigboy boss wrote:
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
The omen is bad, the only thing it can do semi decently is kite because scorch is OP. But even that its really bad at because it can't both have speed and tank. Most Omen fits that actually work are absolutely do or die vs brawlers AND will lose to any other kiter.

The tracking is ****, the cap is ****, the tank is ****. The only thing the omen has is damage projection and even there its still not as good as a HAM caracal.


If you want to kite the Caracal is absolute king.

EDIT: Also if you're using the thorax to kite with blasters you should biomass.


Mega wrong.

The amount of raging noobs in this thread is astounding. Lol

Omen sucks? Settle down children.





Sigh.. lets do this one at a time (Ignoring all the badposts you made after this one because i really cannot be arsed)


Since you seem to enjoy comparing numbers i pretty much agree that a plated omen can beat a kiting rupture (tbh i don't think the kiting rupture is a really good fit anymore) But a plated omen loses to any other armor ship. (And don't try to say you will kite them, any competent cruiser pilot will catch/escape from a omen going 20% faster than they are) And if they get on top of you you're dead because the omen cannot apply dps to other cruisers at close range without a web, it just doesn't.

Also "Small Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 400" "cap stable" EFT is lying to you, you're not cap stable, not even close.


But i'm guess what you want is a minmatar cruiser fit that will beat your omen? A kiting one? alright

[Rupture, New Setup 1]
Tracking Enhancer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II

Large Shield Extender II
Balmer Series Tracking Disruptor I, Optimal Range Disruption Script
Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I
Warp Disruptor II

720mm 'Scout' Artillery I, Republic Fleet EMP M
720mm 'Scout' Artillery I, Republic Fleet EMP M
720mm 'Scout' Artillery I, Republic Fleet EMP M
720mm 'Scout' Artillery I, Republic Fleet EMP M
Small Energy Neutralizer II

Medium Ancillary Current Router I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I


Hobgoblin II x5


Stats are irrelevant, your range with scorch is 12, you die.


What about the stabber (which truly is bad)

[Stabber, New Setup 1]
Damage Control II
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Tracking Enhancer II

Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I
Warp Disruptor II
Large Shield Extender II
Balmer Series Tracking Disruptor I, Optimal Range Disruption Script

425mm AutoCannon II, Barrage M
425mm AutoCannon II, Barrage M
425mm AutoCannon II, Barrage M
425mm AutoCannon II, Barrage M
Small Energy Neutralizer II
Small Energy Neutralizer II

Medium Semiconductor Memory Cell I
Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I

Seriously the stats on this thing are TERRIBLE, it will still **** your omen

It will be even worse with an armor dual prop rupture (Or even stabber) both will catch you if the pilot is competent..

And both will violate the omen as you will be doing absolutely zip damage.

Omen looks good on paper, The Rupture IS good.



BYDI recruitment closed-ish

W0lf Crendraven
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#140 - 2013-01-22 17:04:46 UTC
Maeltstome wrote:



If you aren't fighting on stations/gates then you're doing it wrong. All fighting happens on a station, gate or POS. The later being a massive cluster **** situation. If people aggress you nowhere near any of those things then you are fighting over nothing, in which case its just for fun and the outcome means nothing.

And btw last time i check the proteus can carry a flight of 5 warriors. That 30km scram will lock those condors down unless you have a linked/overheated faction point on them.

Oh sorry. If you warped into a bubble you would also be fighting outside of those situations - until the Proteus MWD'd and tanked your damage to reach a station/gate.




People fight everywhere (and its a fight no matter if it means anything or not). Not everyone is a huge coward and only engages in dcking/jumping range. 30km is with links, and a linked condor has no problem staying outside this while speedtanking all the drones (or killing them if they would want to) and furthermore 8and here comes what is really important), two condors both with unbonused utility damps would put the proteus locking range to 18km, so its 30km scram is hardly of any help (which would mean the condors could do it unlinked)!

Just because frigs cant gank someone before he/she can redock doesnt mean that they are useless. In fact it doesnt mean anything at all, the only real case where it would be important on a regular basis is highsec pvp, and who gives a crap about "highsec pvp".