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Do many EVE players fear consentual PvP?
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Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#101 - 2013-01-22 01:02:26 UTC
Bane Necran wrote:
But through planning ahead and picking your fights to make sure you're going to win, things become very controlled and lack risk.


There is always the risk of interference.

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#102 - 2013-01-22 01:02:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
Ginger Barbarella wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Warp Planet6 wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
How do you use current mechanics to allow 2 parties to engage in a limited conflict similar to what the duel system will allow?


Move lowsec, warp planet 6 and fight like a boss.

That doesn't provide any of the benefits of the duel system.


Or the safety; it merely removes the risk that is the hallmark of Eve Online. Curious that, no?

I don't want to play WoW in Space. I don't want to play Aeon in Space. You guys want that pussification in the way you play, leave. I'll happily hold the door for you (and no, I don't want your tainted stuffs).

What risk was removed? Via can flipping you could get this in the past. Where you rallying so hard against them as well?

What possibly needs to happen is that some eve players need to stop using wow as an excuse to be blind about what is actually going on here.
Renzo Ruderi
Doomheim
#103 - 2013-01-22 01:12:56 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Ginger Barbarella wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Warp Planet6 wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
How do you use current mechanics to allow 2 parties to engage in a limited conflict similar to what the duel system will allow?


Move lowsec, warp planet 6 and fight like a boss.

That doesn't provide any of the benefits of the duel system.


Or the safety; it merely removes the risk that is the hallmark of Eve Online. Curious that, no?

I don't want to play WoW in Space. I don't want to play Aeon in Space. You guys want that pussification in the way you play, leave. I'll happily hold the door for you (and no, I don't want your tainted stuffs).

What risk was removed? Via can flipping you could get this in the past. Where you rallying so hard against them as well?

What possibly needs to happen is that some eve players need to stop using wow as an excuse to be blind about what is actually going on here.


I understand your point, but the thing is - people have a very good reason to cry WoW when nearly anything in WoW is ever brought up as a potential change to EVE. It's because WoW is so monumentally bad in every way, that it's quite frightening for anyone who's been though it to feel like the same thing might happen to EVE - a game that is possibly the last bastion of hope in the MMO universe.

Apologies if this post sounds sarcastic, it's really not. WoW really is that bad, EVE really is (by comparison) not, and I know I'd be pretty upset if that ceased to be the case.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#104 - 2013-01-22 01:25:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
Renzo Ruderi wrote:

I understand your point, but the thing is - people have a very good reason to cry WoW when nearly anything in WoW is ever brought up as a potential change to EVE. It's because WoW is so monumentally bad in every way, that it's quite frightening for anyone who's been though it to feel like the same thing might happen to EVE - a game that is possibly the last bastion of hope in the MMO universe.

Apologies if this post sounds sarcastic, it's really not. WoW really is that bad, EVE really is (by comparison) not, and I know I'd be pretty upset if that ceased to be the case.

I can understand the sentiment. I'm not a fan of Wow, but I'm not prepared to call it objectively bad. Firstly because I've only experienced a fraction of it before quitting, 2nd because different people look for different things in games.

Philosophically Eve and wow are completely incompatible, this I will grant you. That doesn't mean they are completely mechanically incompatible as well. Lets look at duels objectively:

No Instances
No prevention of loss
No protection from outside interference
The addition of a person who can treat you like the 2 of you are in nullsec for 5 min since you last aggressed each other
No guarantee that any agreed upon limitations (ships/fits/etc) in the 1v1 you arranged will be honored

They both have duels, but wow duels are honorable affairs in a bubble while eve duels are just like the rest of the game.
Renzo Ruderi
Doomheim
#105 - 2013-01-22 02:07:28 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Renzo Ruderi wrote:

I understand your point, but the thing is - people have a very good reason to cry WoW when nearly anything in WoW is ever brought up as a potential change to EVE. It's because WoW is so monumentally bad in every way, that it's quite frightening for anyone who's been though it to feel like the same thing might happen to EVE - a game that is possibly the last bastion of hope in the MMO universe.

Apologies if this post sounds sarcastic, it's really not. WoW really is that bad, EVE really is (by comparison) not, and I know I'd be pretty upset if that ceased to be the case.

I can understand the sentiment. I'm not a fan of Wow, but I'm not prepared to call it objectively bad. Firstly because I've only experienced a fraction of it before quitting, 2nd because different people look for different things in games.

Philosophically Eve and wow are completely incompatible, this I will grant you. That doesn't mean they are completely mechanically incompatible as well. Lets look at duels objectively:

No Instances
No prevention of loss
No protection from outside interference
The addition of a person who can treat you like the 2 of you are in nullsec for 5 min since you last aggressed each other
No guarantee that any agreed upon limitations (ships/fits/etc) in the 1v1 you arranged will be honored

They both have duels, but wow duels are honorable affairs in a bubble while eve duels are just like the rest of the game.


Those stipulations sound great, but they still need an "invitation" of sorts to get the ball rolling. Also, if it needs all those stipulations to begin to fit properly, then how's it differ from simply going safeties-off and engaging your target? No instances, no prevention of loss, no buffering from interference, freely attackable for a period of time, and no guarantees of honor from the other party.
Ris Dnalor
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#106 - 2013-01-22 02:08:56 UTC
Bane Necran wrote:
Throughout the history of this game, PvP has mostly revolved around attacking people who are unprepared for PvP, or simply outnumbering your opponent. You make sure you're going to win before you even engage, and there is little risk involved if you plan ahead. This is what your average EVE PvP player has grown accustomed to, and some are quite good at it.

Reading the negative comments on the so-called 'arena' system, you hear a lot of people saying it's more suited to carebears or something, but what could be more hardcore than a 1v1 fight between two ships fitted for PvP, with no friends to save either of them? You are on an even footing with your opponent, and only your personal ability and intelligence can save you.

Why do so many people think that's a bad thing?


It's coding time spent on providing something we can already do, and the new coding doesn't prevent someone from *cheating*, so what's the point? It has to be just the beginning of something new, like removing any other kind of combat from hi sec. Only then would we need the dueling mechanism. Right now it's redundant, and they wouldn't have spent manhours on redundant, would they? Roll


https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=118961

EvE = Everybody Vs. Everybody

  • Qolde
Wacktopia
Fleet-Up.com
Keep It Simple Software Group
#107 - 2013-01-22 02:25:15 UTC
Bane Necran wrote:

Why do so many people think that's a bad thing?


Because if I want a 10v10 of a game I'd just go play one of the hundreds of multiplayer games that work that way. In fact, I do this all the time. But EVE is the only game I play where PvP goes beyond just lining two teams up and seeing who can frag each other the most.

Scouting, intel, all that goes out the window if you're just stuck in an arena. It's a really narrow-minded view of what PvP is in EVE.

Bane Necran wrote:

Reading the negative comments on the so-called 'arena' system,


So why a new thread? Just ask there.

Kitchen sink? Seriousy, get your ship together -  Fleet-Up.com
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#108 - 2013-01-22 02:50:39 UTC
Renzo Ruderi wrote:

Those stipulations sound great, but they still need an "invitation" of sorts to get the ball rolling. Also, if it needs all those stipulations to begin to fit properly, then how's it differ from simply going safeties-off and engaging your target? No instances, no prevention of loss, no buffering from interference, freely attackable for a period of time, and no guarantees of honor from the other party.

That is actually a very simple answer. No concord. For a person using the system in "good faith" for lack of a better term, this is an ideal way to set up some good quick fun while not setting the world against you. Sometimes it's a trap. Sometimes it won't turn out well. But when it does, it's great. So I would have to ask, 2 willing parties decide near Jita undock that they want to duke it out, should they have to go through a great deal of BS just to minimize interruption (Concord and player) and engage each other?

Seeing that as a part of design that needs to be maintained makes no sense to me.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#109 - 2013-01-22 03:09:17 UTC
Ris Dnalor wrote:

It's coding time spent on providing something we can already do, and the new coding doesn't prevent someone from *cheating*, so what's the point? It has to be just the beginning of something new, like removing any other kind of combat from hi sec. Only then would we need the dueling mechanism. Right now it's redundant, and they wouldn't have spent manhours on redundant, would they? Roll

Just to ask again, in case I missed a legitimate answer somewhere: How do you use current mechanics to allow 2 parties to engage in a limited conflict similar to what the duel system will allow?
FloppieTheBanjoClown
Arcana Imperii Ltd.
#110 - 2013-01-22 03:10:53 UTC
1) THERE WILL BE NO ARENAS.

2) A duel is simply a way to set up a limited engagement under the new CrimeWatch system without having to go suspect.

3) This will have zero impact on PVP as it exists today.

Founding member of the Belligerent Undesirables movement.
FloppieTheBanjoClown
Arcana Imperii Ltd.
#111 - 2013-01-22 03:13:27 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:

Just to ask again, in case I missed a legitimate answer somewhere: How do you use current mechanics to allow 2 parties to engage in a limited conflict similar to what the duel system will allow?


Player A ejects a can. Player B takes from that can to go suspect. Player B then docks/cloaks/whatever to hide from any third parties attempting to shoot them. Wait 14 minutes.

With 1 minute left on the suspect timer, Player A shoots Player B. 5 minute LE begins and the suspect timer is waited out. Now you've got 4 minutes to reship, repair, whatever before you start shooting each other with much honor.

Yes, it's a tedious and stupid way to do it. Which is why I think duels are a good thing.

Founding member of the Belligerent Undesirables movement.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#112 - 2013-01-22 03:30:40 UTC
FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:

Just to ask again, in case I missed a legitimate answer somewhere: How do you use current mechanics to allow 2 parties to engage in a limited conflict similar to what the duel system will allow?


Player A ejects a can. Player B takes from that can to go suspect. Player B then docks/cloaks/whatever to hide from any third parties attempting to shoot them. Wait 14 minutes.

With 1 minute left on the suspect timer, Player A shoots Player B. 5 minute LE begins and the suspect timer is waited out. Now you've got 4 minutes to reship, repair, whatever before you start shooting each other with much honor.

Yes, it's a tedious and stupid way to do it. Which is why I think duels are a good thing.

Thanks for the answer.
SmilingVagrant
Doomheim
#113 - 2013-01-22 04:06:47 UTC
I don't PVP. I kill people. There is a marked difference in outlook.
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#114 - 2013-01-22 05:30:35 UTC
Mechanics that enable consensual PVP to happen are fine, but consensual PVP is not a replacement for non-consensual PVP.
Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#115 - 2013-01-22 05:57:01 UTC
Andski wrote:
There is always the risk of interference.

But does "consensual PvP" mean "interference-free PvP"? I don't think we're getting consensual PvP in the form of exclusively consensual PvP anyways...

Future of T3 cruisers - multi-tool they aspired to be instead of sledgehammer they have become
Josef Djugashvilis
#116 - 2013-01-22 08:06:37 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:
Want some - one on one?

Just find somewhere quiet and get to it.

No need for a new mechanic to facilitate it.

Or have a mechanic and do it wherever, taking the chance of interference in more crowded places without increasing the odds of it happening too greatly. Why should people who want to duel not be able to just outside of a hub station or anywhere else?


Because it goes against one of the fundamental principles of Eve - that once you undock, you can be attacked any where, any time, any place.

To change this, is to undermine the very basis of Eve.

This is not a signature.
dark heartt
#117 - 2013-01-22 08:23:26 UTC
Posting in a thread about fred who's soon to be dead laying in a bed next to the girl he wed.

http://tetrisisunrealistic.blogspot.com.au/
Yim Sei
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#118 - 2013-01-22 08:37:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Yim Sei
Bane Necran wrote:
Throughout the history of this game, PvP has mostly revolved around attacking people who are unprepared for PvP, or simply outnumbering your opponent. You make sure you're going to win before you even engage, and there is little risk involved if you plan ahead. This is what your average EVE PvP player has grown accustomed to, and some are quite good at it.

Reading the negative comments on the so-called 'arena' system, you hear a lot of people saying it's more suited to carebears or something, but what could be more hardcore than a 1v1 fight between two ships fitted for PvP, with no friends to save either of them? You are on an even footing with your opponent, and only your personal ability and intelligence can save you.

Why do so many people think that's a bad thing?



Good post :)

Its because the 'GankBears' dont want even footing.
As far as they are concerned the less 'CareBears' who know how to PvP the better.

You wouldnt believe how many people I've ganged with who are supposedly Hardened PvPers, and talk the game - but who will only camp with massively favourable odds. Or high seccers who go on and on about their PvP prowess, with a kb full of noobships and gate blobkills.

The only issue with this I see is KB stat padding.

You WILL get people beating, alts, corp members and PAYING to increase KB stats. - Needs an Arena flag in KB system to enable boards to seperate from Real PvP engagements.

tbh though really only see usefulness relating to organised competition.


(and sorry to hear about Fred Roll)

Post with my main? This is my main - I just overtrain and overplay my alts.
Luke Visteen
#119 - 2013-01-22 08:39:51 UTC
Bane Necran wrote:
Throughout the history of this game, PvP has mostly revolved around attacking people who are unprepared for PvP, or simply outnumbering your opponent. You make sure you're going to win before you even engage, and there is little risk involved if you plan ahead. This is what your average EVE PvP player has grown accustomed to, and some are quite good at it.

Reading the negative comments on the so-called 'arena' system, you hear a lot of people saying it's more suited to carebears or something, but what could be more hardcore than a 1v1 fight between two ships fitted for PvP, with no friends to save either of them? You are on an even footing with your opponent, and only your personal ability and intelligence can save you.

Why do so many people think that's a bad thing?


waaah waaah waaah waaah waaah waaah waaah waaah waaah waaah waaah waaah waaah waaah waaah waaah waaah waaah waaah waaah waaah waaah waaah waaah.

.
Solstice Project
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#120 - 2013-01-22 09:14:52 UTC
dark heartt wrote:
Posting in a thread about fred who's soon to be dead laying in a bed next to the girl he wed.
WHAT ??