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Aza Ebanu
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#121 - 2013-01-22 06:48:40 UTC
terzho wrote:


Are you freaking serious? NPC bounties are one of the main isk faucets. Also that is not the TL;DR. I just listed why your reasons for nerfing NPC's are bad and asked you to restate proper reasons why you wanted NPC's nerfed which you did not do.


It is because you are hung up on isk. I am just saying that NPCs have an unreasonable amount of EHP. You assumethey do because of ISK / hour, but have furnished no proof. You are assuming too much.
EVEn if it was because of isk / hour it would not hurt the game. Less tedious is always a better path to fun. I dare you to show where less tedium is not more fun.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#122 - 2013-01-22 06:49:28 UTC
Aza Ebanu wrote:
terzho wrote:
Aza Ebanu wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Aza Ebanu wrote:

Well that was more of your idea. I can see why you don't like it. Maybe CCP should just reduce EHP by 20% and forget adding or reducing anything else.


The rapid inflation caused by everybody and thier mother running to go kill more easy rats would mean you would ahve to spend just as much time after a little while because inflation would of made the price of everything go up.


You just said you prefer mining to hunting NPCs. So not everyone would be running to do missions, plexes, incursions etc...


Yes but those that do will gain more isk for less effort meaning that overall there will be more isk injected into the game and circulating around which leads to inflation.

Your "Market will handle it fine" shows your lack of understanding.
The only way to lower inflation is to balance it out with "Isk sinks" so isk leaves the economy which your change doesn't include.


Not really the QEN when they were regular showed that income from missions had no direct correlation on inflation, but mineral prices did..... Weird huh?


Mineral prices follow the inflation basicly because they are traded on the inflated or non inflated market.

NPC killing has EVERYTHING to do with inflation because they cause a net increase in the availability of ISK in the game which just as in the real world cause inflation like when more money is available through lower credit cost for consumer.

Hell you could argue to a certain point that mining currently is fighting against inflation because for the miner to get any ISK, some have to been removed from the game via amrket taxes imposed on transaction. It's such a tiny amount tho that it would be a useless argument...
Aza Ebanu
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#123 - 2013-01-22 06:50:53 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Aza Ebanu wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Aza Ebanu wrote:

Well that was more of your idea. I can see why you don't like it. Maybe CCP should just reduce EHP by 20% and forget adding or reducing anything else.


The rapid inflation caused by everybody and thier mother running to go kill more easy rats would mean you would ahve to spend just as much time after a little while because inflation would of made the price of everything go up.


You just said you prefer mining to hunting NPCs. So not everyone would be running to do missions, plexes, incursions etc...


If you drive inflation up enough, everybody with common sense would turn to mining because it's the only grinding profession where all your income follow the inflation right? Your minerals will always follow the rise of inflation while the static income of missions/incursion and ratting will slowly but surely become less and less efficient?

If you want the shooting of red cross to be an efficient and fast way to gain isk, makign it easyer to do it not the solution.


What you are describing has already happened, and I swear you have ome obsession with mining. Missions are boring.... I guess I gotta go mine. Inflation in the market gotta go get my barge...
terzho
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#124 - 2013-01-22 06:52:42 UTC  |  Edited by: terzho
Aza Ebanu wrote:
terzho wrote:


Are you freaking serious? NPC bounties are one of the main isk faucets. Also that is not the TL;DR. I just listed why your reasons for nerfing NPC's are bad and asked you to restate proper reasons why you wanted NPC's nerfed which you did not do.


It is because you are hung up on isk. I am just saying that NPCs have an unreasonable amount of EHP. You assumethey do because of ISK / hour, but have furnished no proof. You are assuming too much.
EVEn if it was because of isk / hour it would not hurt the game. Less tedious is always a better path to fun. I dare you to show where less tedium is not more fun.


Okay so now your reason is that you can't be bothered grinding like everyone else does.

Once again explain how killing them quicker would make it more fun? Is it because you just don't enjoy pve and you want it to be over as quick as possible? Making pve over as fast as possible is NOT making it more fun. So if you really dislike pve go do something else instead of complaining
Also how is the EHP of NPC's unreasonable?
Your reason was that because it was more then double the hull ehp WHICH IS NORMAL FOR TANKED SHIPS.

Also you want me to prove lower tank leads to higher isk/hr? Okay think about it for a sec. If you can kill 5 ships in 10 seconds for 10 mil. You will obviously get more isk if you can do it in 5 seconds as you can move on to other targets quicker. There proved.
On the other hand what proof do you have for any of your claims?
Aza Ebanu
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#125 - 2013-01-22 06:54:34 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:


Mineral prices follow the inflation basicly because they are traded on the inflated or non inflated market.

NPC killing has EVERYTHING to do with inflation because they cause a net increase in the availability of ISK in the game which just as in the real world cause inflation like when more money is available through lower credit cost for consumer.

Hell you could argue to a certain point that mining currently is fighting against inflation because for the miner to get any ISK, some have to been removed from the game via amrket taxes imposed on transaction. It's such a tiny amount tho that it would be a useless argument...

EVE has credit?
terzho
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#126 - 2013-01-22 06:57:02 UTC
Aza Ebanu wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:


Mineral prices follow the inflation basicly because they are traded on the inflated or non inflated market.

NPC killing has EVERYTHING to do with inflation because they cause a net increase in the availability of ISK in the game which just as in the real world cause inflation like when more money is available through lower credit cost for consumer.

Hell you could argue to a certain point that mining currently is fighting against inflation because for the miner to get any ISK, some have to been removed from the game via amrket taxes imposed on transaction. It's such a tiny amount tho that it would be a useless argument...

EVE has credit?


OP can read and can tell what is being used as an example and what isn't?
Aza Ebanu
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#127 - 2013-01-22 06:58:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Aza Ebanu
terzho wrote:
Aza Ebanu wrote:
terzho wrote:


Are you freaking serious? NPC bounties are one of the main isk faucets. Also that is not the TL;DR. I just listed why your reasons for nerfing NPC's are bad and asked you to restate proper reasons why you wanted NPC's nerfed which you did not do.


It is because you are hung up on isk. I am just saying that NPCs have an unreasonable amount of EHP. You assumethey do because of ISK / hour, but have furnished no proof. You are assuming too much.
EVEn if it was because of isk / hour it would not hurt the game. Less tedious is always a better path to fun. I dare you to show where less tedium is not more fun.


Okay so now your reason is that you can't be bothered grinding like everyone else does.

Once again explain how killing them quicker would make it more fun? Is it because you just don't enjoy pve and you want it to be over as quick as possible? Making pve over as fast as possible is NOT making it more fun. So if you really dislike pve go do something else instead of complaining
Also how is the EHP of NPC's unreasonable?
Your reason was that because it was more then double the hull ehp WHICH IS NORMAL FOR TANKED SHIPS.

But the ships aren't tanked. The NPC doesn't drop fitted modules if they are so one will never know for sure. The reason I feel like they have more EHP is because they do. A whole lot of players would love faster PVE and more isk. I don't really see what the problem is there. To me it is an acceptable side effect.
Aza Ebanu
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#128 - 2013-01-22 07:01:40 UTC
terzho wrote:
Aza Ebanu wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:


Mineral prices follow the inflation basicly because they are traded on the inflated or non inflated market.

NPC killing has EVERYTHING to do with inflation because they cause a net increase in the availability of ISK in the game which just as in the real world cause inflation like when more money is available through lower credit cost for consumer.

Hell you could argue to a certain point that mining currently is fighting against inflation because for the miner to get any ISK, some have to been removed from the game via amrket taxes imposed on transaction. It's such a tiny amount tho that it would be a useless argument...

EVE has credit?


OP can read and can tell what is being used as an example and what isn't?

You are speculating about economics that don't exist in the game having some bearing on the game. At the very least you are off topic.
terzho
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#129 - 2013-01-22 07:03:50 UTC
Aza Ebanu wrote:
terzho wrote:
Aza Ebanu wrote:
terzho wrote:


Are you freaking serious? NPC bounties are one of the main isk faucets. Also that is not the TL;DR. I just listed why your reasons for nerfing NPC's are bad and asked you to restate proper reasons why you wanted NPC's nerfed which you did not do.


It is because you are hung up on isk. I am just saying that NPCs have an unreasonable amount of EHP. You assumethey do because of ISK / hour, but have furnished no proof. You are assuming too much.
EVEn if it was because of isk / hour it would not hurt the game. Less tedious is always a better path to fun. I dare you to show where less tedium is not more fun.


Okay so now your reason is that you can't be bothered grinding like everyone else does.

Once again explain how killing them quicker would make it more fun? Is it because you just don't enjoy pve and you want it to be over as quick as possible? Making pve over as fast as possible is NOT making it more fun. So if you really dislike pve go do something else instead of complaining
Also how is the EHP of NPC's unreasonable?
Your reason was that because it was more then double the hull ehp WHICH IS NORMAL FOR TANKED SHIPS.

But the ships aren't tanked. The NPC doesn't drop fitted modules if they are so one will never know for sure. The reason I feel like they have more EHP is because they do. A whole lot of players would love faster PVE and more isk. I don't really see what the problem is there. To me it s an acceptable side effect.


It isn't an acceptable side effect though due to the aforementioned INFLATION that's already a problem. Also yes they do drop tank items...........
terzho
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#130 - 2013-01-22 07:05:06 UTC
Aza Ebanu wrote:
terzho wrote:
Aza Ebanu wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:


Mineral prices follow the inflation basicly because they are traded on the inflated or non inflated market.

NPC killing has EVERYTHING to do with inflation because they cause a net increase in the availability of ISK in the game which just as in the real world cause inflation like when more money is available through lower credit cost for consumer.

Hell you could argue to a certain point that mining currently is fighting against inflation because for the miner to get any ISK, some have to been removed from the game via amrket taxes imposed on transaction. It's such a tiny amount tho that it would be a useless argument...

EVE has credit?


OP can read and can tell what is being used as an example and what isn't?

You are speculating about economics that don't exist in the game having some bearing on the game. At the very least you are off topic.


Dude, at fanfest they had an entire session discussing inflation and how they're trying to prevent it so yes it does exist in the game......
Aza Ebanu
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#131 - 2013-01-22 07:08:11 UTC
terzho wrote:


It isn't an acceptable side effect though due to the aforementioned INFLATION that's already a problem. Also yes they do drop tank items...........


They drop tank items that they obviously weren't using. Reducing EHP by 20% wont increase isk flow so fast that it would ruin the market. Maybe if it was like 300% or something like that, but not 20%. NPCs have too many EHP!
terzho
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#132 - 2013-01-22 07:10:48 UTC
Aza Ebanu wrote:
terzho wrote:


It isn't an acceptable side effect though due to the aforementioned INFLATION that's already a problem. Also yes they do drop tank items...........


They drop tank items that they obviously weren't using. Reducing EHP by 20% wont increase isk flow so fast that it would ruin the market. Maybe if it was like 300% or something like that, but not 20%. NPCs have too many EHP!


It won't ruin it completely but it's still raising inflation which CCP doesn't want. Now state again your reason why "NPCs have too many EHP!"?
Aza Ebanu
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#133 - 2013-01-22 07:11:09 UTC
terzho wrote:
Aza Ebanu wrote:
terzho wrote:
Aza Ebanu wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:


Mineral prices follow the inflation basicly because they are traded on the inflated or non inflated market.

NPC killing has EVERYTHING to do with inflation because they cause a net increase in the availability of ISK in the game which just as in the real world cause inflation like when more money is available through lower credit cost for consumer.

Hell you could argue to a certain point that mining currently is fighting against inflation because for the miner to get any ISK, some have to been removed from the game via amrket taxes imposed on transaction. It's such a tiny amount tho that it would be a useless argument...

EVE has credit?


OP can read and can tell what is being used as an example and what isn't?

You are speculating about economics that don't exist in the game having some bearing on the game. At the very least you are off topic.


Dude, at fanfest they had an entire session discussing inflation and how they're trying to prevent it so yes it does exist in the game......

Do they say what inflation will actually do to the game? It cant hurt the market worse than scamming lawlessness etc that already goes on in the game.If they are worried about inflation "that " much they should just reduce NPC bounties, drops, etc all together, but they should reduce the EHP of NPCs regardless.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#134 - 2013-01-22 07:11:54 UTC
Aza Ebanu wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Aza Ebanu wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Aza Ebanu wrote:

Well that was more of your idea. I can see why you don't like it. Maybe CCP should just reduce EHP by 20% and forget adding or reducing anything else.


The rapid inflation caused by everybody and thier mother running to go kill more easy rats would mean you would ahve to spend just as much time after a little while because inflation would of made the price of everything go up.


You just said you prefer mining to hunting NPCs. So not everyone would be running to do missions, plexes, incursions etc...


If you drive inflation up enough, everybody with common sense would turn to mining because it's the only grinding profession where all your income follow the inflation right? Your minerals will always follow the rise of inflation while the static income of missions/incursion and ratting will slowly but surely become less and less efficient?

If you want the shooting of red cross to be an efficient and fast way to gain isk, makign it easyer to do it not the solution.


What you are describing has already happened, and I swear you have ome obsession with mining. Missions are boring.... I guess I gotta go mine. Inflation in the market gotta go get my barge...


It will all keep ahppening but at a faster rates if the red crosses dies faster. Thats what you are missing. Your change bring nothing but a temporary reduction to your grind time untill the market catch up via inflation.

Lets say a BC rat currently give you 150k ISK. You need to kill 100 to buy yourself a 15 mill ship. You want to reduce this time because it takes too long for you and you find it boring.

*Magical reduction of each BC EHP by 20%*

You now need to kill the same 100 BC to get that 15 mill ship. You are happy for a while.

*2 weeks passes*

Your 15 mill ship is not 18 mill on the market. Exactly 20% more than it cost before the change. You now need to kill 120 BC to get the required 18 mill to buy your ship. Killing 120 BC will take as much time with the reduced EHP as it does now to kill 100. There is one problem tho. BC are not infinitely spawning from a point for you to keep killing them. You have to go where they are and then kill them. It can be in incursion, in a belt or in amission but the fact still remain, any of these spot contain a relatively stable number of ships to kill before you ahve to go to another spot. Going to that other spot means you are burning time innefectively because you are not killing red cross while warping/accepting missions/preparing fleet for incursion spot. This added overhead would end up costing you more time thus making your boring grind longer.

The only valid point you can make by now is that it would be more fun because you like to see explosion in great number in rapid succession and messing with the economic side of the game just for that is senseless...
terzho
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#135 - 2013-01-22 07:12:15 UTC
terzho wrote:
Aza Ebanu wrote:
terzho wrote:


It isn't an acceptable side effect though due to the aforementioned INFLATION that's already a problem. Also yes they do drop tank items...........


They drop tank items that they obviously weren't using. Reducing EHP by 20% wont increase isk flow so fast that it would ruin the market. Maybe if it was like 300% or something like that, but not 20%. NPCs have too many EHP!


It won't ruin it completely but it's still raising inflation which CCP doesn't want. Now state again your reason why "NPCs have too many EHP!"?


Also why are they not obviously using the tank modules they're dropping? Evidence?
Aza Ebanu
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#136 - 2013-01-22 07:12:28 UTC
terzho wrote:
Aza Ebanu wrote:
terzho wrote:


It isn't an acceptable side effect though due to the aforementioned INFLATION that's already a problem. Also yes they do drop tank items...........


They drop tank items that they obviously weren't using. Reducing EHP by 20% wont increase isk flow so fast that it would ruin the market. Maybe if it was like 300% or something like that, but not 20%. NPCs have too many EHP!


It won't ruin it completely but it's still raising inflation which CCP doesn't want. Now state again your reason why "NPCs have too many EHP!"?

It makes PVE tedious. From a game design perspective they should reduce NPC EHP.
Aza Ebanu
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#137 - 2013-01-22 07:14:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Aza Ebanu
terzho wrote:
terzho wrote:
Aza Ebanu wrote:
terzho wrote:


It isn't an acceptable side effect though due to the aforementioned INFLATION that's already a problem. Also yes they do drop tank items...........


They drop tank items that they obviously weren't using. Reducing EHP by 20% wont increase isk flow so fast that it would ruin the market. Maybe if it was like 300% or something like that, but not 20%. NPCs have too many EHP!


It won't ruin it completely but it's still raising inflation which CCP doesn't want. Now state again your reason why "NPCs have too many EHP!"?


Also why are they not obviously using the tank modules they're dropping? Evidence?

Well when you get blewt up, you drop around 60% or so of your fitting (you know this you have been blewt up or blewt someone else up.) They drop all kinds of junk that they obviously haven't fit. See the OP link for details.
None ofthe Above
#138 - 2013-01-22 07:19:18 UTC
Buff NPCs, give them fittings and AI that better mimics players.

Make them Neutable.

Make them warp out and grab reinforcements so that points and scrams are useful.

End the divide between PVE and PVP fits.

Blur the lines between PVE and PVP for a better game.

The only end-game content in EVE Online is the crap that makes you rage quit.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#139 - 2013-01-22 07:21:05 UTC
Aza Ebanu wrote:
terzho wrote:
Aza Ebanu wrote:
terzho wrote:


It isn't an acceptable side effect though due to the aforementioned INFLATION that's already a problem. Also yes they do drop tank items...........


They drop tank items that they obviously weren't using. Reducing EHP by 20% wont increase isk flow so fast that it would ruin the market. Maybe if it was like 300% or something like that, but not 20%. NPCs have too many EHP!


It won't ruin it completely but it's still raising inflation which CCP doesn't want. Now state again your reason why "NPCs have too many EHP!"?

It makes PVE tedious. From a game design perspective they should reduce NPC EHP.


High EHP ship in PvE make PvE interesting because the fights last longer so there is more requirement to fullfill when doing a mission like pulling efficently and priorizing target before you get blown up. From a design perspective, the ship EHP should be increased some more so we can have more interesting fights.

See, we can create counter your stupid baseless argument with our own loop holes. When will you start providing fact to support your assumptions?
Aza Ebanu
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#140 - 2013-01-22 07:27:47 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Aza Ebanu wrote:
terzho wrote:
Aza Ebanu wrote:
terzho wrote:


It isn't an acceptable side effect though due to the aforementioned INFLATION that's already a problem. Also yes they do drop tank items...........


They drop tank items that they obviously weren't using. Reducing EHP by 20% wont increase isk flow so fast that it would ruin the market. Maybe if it was like 300% or something like that, but not 20%. NPCs have too many EHP!


It won't ruin it completely but it's still raising inflation which CCP doesn't want. Now state again your reason why "NPCs have too many EHP!"?

It makes PVE tedious. From a game design perspective they should reduce NPC EHP.


High EHP ship in PvE make PvE interesting because the fights last longer so there is more requirement to fullfill when doing a mission like pulling efficently and priorizing target before you get blown up. From a design perspective, the ship EHP should be increased some more so we can have more interesting fights.

See, we can create counter your stupid baseless argument with our own loop holes. When will you start providing fact to support your assumptions?

LOL not at all. I compared NPC ships to the ships capsuleers fly, and the difference is appalling. If you want longer fights they could buff player ships too. I see nothing wrong with that either I'm sure hardcore PVPers would thank you for the more "interesting" fights. Prioritizing targets could be done whole number of ways rather than having an unbalanced amount of EHP.
I am beging to wonder how long you been playing EVE though, you are acting like PVE is very similar to PVP...