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[Retribution 1.1] Armor Tanking 1.5

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Galatea Galilei
Summa Universalia
#241 - 2013-01-22 02:46:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Galatea Galilei
Iyacia Cyric'ai wrote:
Only medium armor repairers scale poorly (as evidenced by the need to fit triple reps on the Myrm to make it a competitive ship)...

It's not even competitive. That gets it into tanking range of a shield-tanked Myrm, but it then does ridiculously low damage compared to the shield Myrm (which still tanks a bit more DPS while fitting three Drone Damage Amps). It's really, really sad that a Myrm with every single low slot, every rig, and half it's med slots devoted to tank still doens't quite tank as well as a shield-tanked Myrm with half of its low slots devoted to Drone Damage Amps. The only reason anyone ever armor-tanks a Myrm is they foolishly read the description and thought that rep bonus should get used, but never actually ran the numbers.

The large armor reps aren't that great either, even fitting requirements aside.
Gal'o Sengen
Doomheim
#242 - 2013-01-22 02:53:49 UTC
So... What about if you aren't active tanking? Passive armour rigs still absolutely gimp your mobility. The mass reduction skill is great, and the 800mm Plate buff is good, but the real problem is the velocity penalty for being Armour rigged.

Also, Cruisers need their own Rig category, it's gotten to the point that putting two Field Extender rigs on a Caracal costs more than the Hull itself (meanwhile, Medium Trimarks cost 2m each, hint hint), it costs roughly as much to lose a Drake as it does a Caracal once you factor in Insurance.
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#243 - 2013-01-22 02:53:52 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
General Foom wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
It will fit if you skip the plate. You will get about 1300 out of each of your 9 cycles.


Hummmmm..... I need to play with it.

-Liang

Ed: Still kinda skeptical. But I'll withhold judgment.


dudes

the new Brutix has 7 lows and 50 extra grid


I must have missed the +2 low slots.

-Liang


7-4-6 there was only +1 low slot for a total of 17 slots. I have accounted for the 50 extra grid. You need a +3 implant for the fit.
Styledatol
Stellar Forge Industries
#244 - 2013-01-22 02:58:16 UTC
"Lets add more skillbooks, because its easier than balancing existing stuff."

Also, since you're doing this, why not cover all angles and work on capital armor tanking too?
I don't get this half-baked job mindset.
Eternal Error
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#245 - 2013-01-22 03:00:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Eternal Error
Debir Achen wrote:
ghost st wrote:
I mean if you look at turret tracking, speed (well Transvaal) is much more important than signature radius. You can have a high sig radius but be relatively unaffected if you can still move. But if you cant move, even a ludicrously small sig radius wont help you.
A 10% speed penalty and a 10% increase in sig radius have an identical effect on the tracking calculation.

Of course, it's not quite that simple. Mass doesn't affect nominal max speed, but it does significantly affect agility and max speed under prop mod. For added fun, the % affect to max prop mod speed is less than the % affect to the ship's mass, though it gets closer the greater the mass of your ship.

In contrast, an increase in sig has no affect on ship handling, though it does also make the ship easier to lock.
You're bad.

Hint: In addition to being incorrect on tracking (given that sig radius only matters if your sig radius is less than the sig res of the guns), armor rigs penalize speed, not mass.

DarthNefarius wrote:
As an Incursion PvE armour fleet pilot I'm unimpressed with everything announced here narrowing the differences between shields getting thier reps at the beginning of thier cycles and being to load up on damage mods in thier lo's... they even have a tracking enhancer mod which goes in the low too which is the equivenant of the tracking computer mod in the mid.


I think the TC vs. TE comparison is something that really needs to be looked at given that one is active and one is passive.

Gal'o Sengen wrote:
So... What about if you aren't active tanking? Passive armour rigs still absolutely gimp your mobility. The mass reduction skill is great, and the 800mm Plate buff is good, but the real problem is the velocity penalty for being Armour rigged.

Also, Cruisers need their own Rig category, it's gotten to the point that putting two Field Extender rigs on a Caracal costs more than the Hull itself (meanwhile, Medium Trimarks cost 2m each, hint hint), it costs roughly as much to lose a Drake as it does a Caracal once you factor in Insurance.

Remove insurance for all hulls battlecruiser size and above. Problem solved. Also, cruisers have their own rig size: medium

@Fozzie:

I see a lot of people saying the exact same thing that I said: no new skills, no new modules, just start making some basic balance tweaks to EXISTING modules and rigs before introducing new stuff. Any reply?
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#246 - 2013-01-22 03:14:47 UTC
Zarnak Wulf wrote:

7-4-6 there was only +1 low slot for a total of 17 slots. I have accounted for the 50 extra grid. You need a +3 implant for the fit.


Sarcasm doesn't transmit well over the interwebs, I guess. ;-)

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Shaak'Ti
The Public Enemy.
#247 - 2013-01-22 03:16:02 UTC
Quote:

@Fozzie:

I see a lot of people saying the exact same thing that I said: no new skills, no new modules, just start making some basic balance tweaks to EXISTING modules and rigs before introducing new stuff. Any reply?


EXISTING modules are good.. just learn to use.
Who cry because shield better, should use shield tank.. and who cry because armor is better, should use armor.
Who can play, know which tank better in different situations, and can use it too.
Doing more way of tanking make the game more EXITING!
Lyron-Baktos
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#248 - 2013-01-22 03:18:04 UTC
nothing I see here will prompt people to think twice about skipping shield / kiting fits imo, especially for solo/small gangs. You have to do something about the speed or if you keep armor fits slow, you need to really buff something else. like DPS projection or better tanking
Maximus Andendare
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#249 - 2013-01-22 03:18:31 UTC
Styledatol wrote:
"Lets add more skillbooks, because its easier than balancing existing stuff."
Yes. Instead of adding new skills, just reduce the mass penalty to all plates by 20% across the board.

The "light armor" (50, 200, 800) vs "heavy armor" (100, 400, 1600) idea is a good one; just reduce these further, perhaps 40-45% compared to live. Then, the question is "you can get *some* tank and be quick, or you can get a lot of tank and be slow--which do you choose?"

Seriously, though, no new skillbooks!

Enter grid and you're already dead, destined to be reborn and fight another day.

>> Play Eve Online FREE! Join today for exclusive bonuses! <<

Zyella Stormborn
Green Seekers
#250 - 2013-01-22 03:20:28 UTC
Roime wrote:
I also echo the concern that balancing could have been more easily done by

- reducing armor rep cycle time (reps happen at the end of cycle anyway)
- reducing armor rep fitting costs
- reducing armor rep cap usage
- increasing armor rep hull bonuses to 10%

This proposed solution forces armor tankers to learn another new skill (we just had to train RAH skill), increases the already massive fitting cost imbalance even further while doing nothing to the cap issue or making the 7.5% hull bonus any more worthwhile.





This

This

This

/wishing i could put more than +1

There is a special Hell for people like that, Right next to child molestors, and people that talk in the theater. ~Firefly
Shaak'Ti
The Public Enemy.
#251 - 2013-01-22 03:28:13 UTC
Zyella Stormborn wrote:
Roime wrote:
I also echo the concern that balancing could have been more easily done by

- reducing armor rep cycle time (reps happen at the end of cycle anyway)
- reducing armor rep fitting costs
- reducing armor rep cap usage
- increasing armor rep hull bonuses to 10%

This proposed solution forces armor tankers to learn another new skill (we just had to train RAH skill), increases the already massive fitting cost imbalance even further while doing nothing to the cap issue or making the 7.5% hull bonus any more worthwhile.





This

This

This

/wishing i could put more than +1



! WARNING !

Carebears crying for permatanks !



Burst tanks FTW !

AAR made for PvP... hell yeah.. go back to your rainbowland with your shiney fitting farmers :P
Cypher Decypher
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#252 - 2013-01-22 03:37:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Cypher Decypher
I'm all for adding new skills.
We have enough modules.
Edit: Add skills for using Deadspace/Officer mods...
Iyacia Cyric'ai
Lai Dai Counterintelligence
#253 - 2013-01-22 03:47:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Iyacia Cyric'ai
Shaak'Ti wrote:
awesome.. but I think there is one more little thing to make active armortanking in line with active shield tanking..


..teh pirate implant set

If you're going to do that then shield users will demand a pirate implant set for buffer shields. Bringing them in line in terms of balance =/= make them identical.


In terms of my general thoughts:

Personally I think these changes are fine and at the very least any additional buffs should only be released aftering seeing how these current changes affect armor tanking. Some of the additional buffs people here are asking for I feel will not balance armor tanking but will make armor tanking superior to shield tanking. The only thing I dislike about the current proposal is the addition of skillbooks. All this does is increase the gap between new and old players. Just buff the plates and/or rigs. AAR is a great idea and I fully support it, don't listen to the carebears that cry because they can't use it to permatank in their missions.
Iyacia Cyric'ai
Lai Dai Counterintelligence
#254 - 2013-01-22 04:00:14 UTC
Galatea Galilei wrote:
Iyacia Cyric'ai wrote:
Only medium armor repairers scale poorly (as evidenced by the need to fit triple reps on the Myrm to make it a competitive ship)...

It's not even competitive. That gets it into tanking range of a shield-tanked Myrm, but it then does ridiculously low damage compared to the shield Myrm (which still tanks a bit more DPS while fitting three Drone Damage Amps). It's really, really sad that a Myrm with every single low slot, every rig, and half it's med slots devoted to tank still doens't quite tank as well as a shield-tanked Myrm with half of its low slots devoted to Drone Damage Amps. The only reason anyone ever armor-tanks a Myrm is they foolishly read the description and thought that rep bonus should get used, but never actually ran the numbers.

The large armor reps aren't that great either, even fitting requirements aside.
Shield Myrm sacrifices on either tackle (which gives it more DPS) or on the ability to permatank. Less EFT, more actual PvP please.

Large Armor Reps aside from their fitting requirements are fine with only a few number tweaks. No where near the ridiculous buffs the post I was replying to proposed.
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#255 - 2013-01-22 04:04:28 UTC
I say absolutely to the new mods and rigs. They offer fantastic opportunities. The new skill I'm kind of 'meh' about. You could just lower the mass of 400 and 1600 plates by 25% and all others by 45%.

I understand all too well that the 100m+ SP crowd needs new skills to train. But they need new skills at the top of the pyramid. I have always felt like there was a giant leap between BS and caps for example. And there is lots of room to flesh out the cap field. (After you burn them and supercaps to the ground and start over in that area of course.)
Vladimir Norkoff
Income Redistribution Service
#256 - 2013-01-22 04:11:09 UTC
Gotta say, I am intrigued by the changes.

I'm now even more interested in seeing what happens with the Hype and the Domi when you get around to balancing Battleships.
Zyella Stormborn
Green Seekers
#257 - 2013-01-22 04:20:09 UTC
Shaak'Ti wrote:
Zyella Stormborn wrote:
Roime wrote:
I also echo the concern that balancing could have been more easily done by

- reducing armor rep cycle time (reps happen at the end of cycle anyway)
- reducing armor rep fitting costs
- reducing armor rep cap usage
- increasing armor rep hull bonuses to 10%

This proposed solution forces armor tankers to learn another new skill (we just had to train RAH skill), increases the already massive fitting cost imbalance even further while doing nothing to the cap issue or making the 7.5% hull bonus any more worthwhile.





This

This

This

/wishing i could put more than +1



! WARNING !

Carebears crying for permatanks !



Burst tanks FTW !

AAR made for PvP... hell yeah.. go back to your rainbowland with your shiney fitting farmers :P


*chuckle* This is what you got from that? Troll on with your oddly named self. ;)

There is a special Hell for people like that, Right next to child molestors, and people that talk in the theater. ~Firefly
Iyacia Cyric'ai
Lai Dai Counterintelligence
#258 - 2013-01-22 04:20:49 UTC
Vladimir Norkoff wrote:
Gotta say, I am intrigued by the changes.

I'm now even more interested in seeing what happens with the Hype and the Domi when you get around to balancing Battleships.

Battleship changes are going to be far less drastic. I'm guessing they're mainly going to just remove the difference in stats between the various tiers. Phoon will be changed to a missile boat and I think either the Raven will be buffed by giving it more slots or large missiles in general will receive a significant buff.
Roosevelt Coltrane
Rupakaya
#259 - 2013-01-22 04:29:15 UTC
Armor rep bonus is still horrible and likely wasted on anything above Frig. These changes don't address that at all.
Brinxter
Bite Me inc
#260 - 2013-01-22 04:32:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Brinxter
Roime wrote:
I also echo the concern that balancing could have been more easily done by

- reducing armor rep cycle time (reps happen at the end of cycle anyway)
- reducing armor rep fitting costs
- reducing armor rep cap usage
- increasing armor rep hull bonuses to 10%

This proposed solution forces armor tankers to learn another new skill (we just had to train RAH skill), increases the already massive fitting cost imbalance even further while doing nothing to the cap issue or making the 7.5% hull bonus any more worthwhile.






I have to agree with this.
Why add even more skills, to an already skill intensive way of tanking, PLUS adding more modules, without fixing what you already have?
This does nothing to decrease the disparity between armor and shield tanking.