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Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#41 - 2013-01-21 21:02:11 UTC
Corey Fumimasa wrote:
There was a vexor fit with a couple of medium neuts and small guns. All t2 fittings, I set the skills to all V and stuck in implants that looked like armor boosters. EHP was 23142 dps was 171.

Then I set skills to none or whatever and removed the implants. Swapped all the gear out with t1. EHP was 9000 dps was 48, and the powergrid was 131 over.


Now give the all-5s guy blasters, give the no-skills guy a caracal with heavy missile launchers, and see who wins when they fight at the caracal's optimal range.

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Whitehound
#42 - 2013-01-21 21:06:13 UTC
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:
And let's face it, not even 500k after 10 years? When other MMOs have 4-22x more? Nothing to shout from the rooftops about.

10 years are 10 years, no matter how you twist it.

It is 10 years of bills getting paid and food being put on the table by CCP and their families. For some is this success, others dream of riches while their mothers are still doing the washing.

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
Corey Fumimasa
CFM Salvage
#43 - 2013-01-21 21:08:24 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
Corey Fumimasa wrote:
There was a vexor fit with a couple of medium neuts and small guns. All t2 fittings, I set the skills to all V and stuck in implants that looked like armor boosters. EHP was 23142 dps was 171.

Then I set skills to none or whatever and removed the implants. Swapped all the gear out with t1. EHP was 9000 dps was 48, and the powergrid was 131 over.


Now give the all-5s guy blasters, give the no-skills guy a caracal with heavy missile launchers, and see who wins when they fight at the caracal's optimal range.


That is exactly the point, there's no need for such mechanical advantage, vet pilots will win the fight because they know how to fight. Do away with the gear disparity and make the game one of real skill and knowledge. Not this fantasy tough guy fight club where the other guy is crippled and doesn't even know it.
Jame Jarl Retief
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#44 - 2013-01-21 21:13:03 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Whitehound wrote:
So that is 2.57x more eHP and 3.56x more DPS for the guy who stayed with EVE for many years and with only a few of his best friends left, while he gets attacked by countless noobs, year after year, who not only come with their spaceships but also want to see his bonuses removed.
…put another way: the best you can ever be with the fit in question — something that takes significant time to accumulate — gets killed by three players who have been in the game for zero seconds and who had to use devh4x to get into the ships to begin with. Yeah, that's a massive, insurmountable, and deeply unfair advantage from all those skills alright… Roll


Allow me to play the Devil's Advocate for a minute. Oh wait, I do that anyway... Blink

Anywho, let me flip the question: if the "massive, insurmountable, and deeply unfair advantage" you speak of is so negligible in reality, why are "old hands" with said SP advantage soooooooo reluctant to give it up?

If it is as you say, wouldn't it be much better to give up this tiny, negligible and totally meaningless advantage? The immediate benefit would be the new players would not longer have this to complain about. Why not do it, if it's such a small thing?

Having said that, you yourself admit it's an advantage. As soon as you do that, it becomes a question of degrees, and highly subjective. That might be OK for you (3 newbies killing 1 veteran) might be utterly unacceptable for someone else. For example, consider other gaming genres, such as FPS games, where a bullet to the head is a bullet to the head, and where 1v1 a noob with good aim can easily and reliably take down a vet with a character several years old and all the best weapon unlocks. And the complete other end of the spectrum is WoW, where even a trillion level 1 characters will never ever take down a single level 85 character, it's just not possible, but it works in that game because players get segregated by level when it comes to meaningful activities.

So, rather than get into "what's enough and what's too much", which is subjective, why not get rid of the character skills, and make the game about player skill exclusively? If the advantage is so miniscule anyway, why do you object to it?
Whitehound
#45 - 2013-01-21 21:20:03 UTC
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:
Anywho, let me flip the question: if the "massive, insurmountable, and deeply unfair advantage" you speak of is so negligible in reality, why are "old hands" with said SP advantage soooooooo reluctant to give it up?

What's so difficult to understand? Because we like to win over noobs and we enjoy it when we can do it with ease.

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#46 - 2013-01-21 21:28:19 UTC
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:
Anywho, let me flip the question: if the "massive, insurmountable, and deeply unfair advantage" you speak of is so negligible in reality, why are "old hands" with said SP advantage soooooooo reluctant to give it up?
Because SP creates choices and planning and distinguishes one character from another. It's what forces characters to complement each other rather than do everything. It is — counter-intuitively enough — what lets new players beat old ones. Removing this by removing the skill advantages breaks some fundamental design elements of the game and makes it much poorer for it.

Also, you're somewhat misrepresenting the point. No-one is denying that skill levels don't create advantages — that's their entire purpose, after all. However, note the wording. I didn't say “SP” because SP offers no advantages; it only offers the disadvantage of more expensive clones. The reason older players don't want to give up their skill advantage is because they've spent a lot of time and planning to get that versatility. Anyone can quickly and easily match or surpass them in power, because of the double-whammy of diminishing returns, so what they have to play with is a larger set of tools and to be honest, they've earned it. It's an advantage that is trivial to overcome with a bit of cleverness… so that's one more thing the existence of skills promote, rather than vapid and bland cookie-cutter and FOTM builds and strategies.

Quote:
The immediate benefit would be the new players would not longer have this to complain about. Why not do it, if it's such a small thing?
…because it removes such a crucial set of elements of the game: decisions, planning, sacrifices, prioritisation, combination, characterisation, and customisation. It makes the game much much worse for no good reason (and no, complaining n00bs is not a reason — the solution to that problem is education, not ruining the game).
Glathull
Warlock Assassins
#47 - 2013-01-21 21:32:07 UTC
Corey Fumimasa wrote:
[quote=War Kitten]

The gear difference by itself isn't too bad. Its only when it gets multiplied by implants and then that number gets multiplied again by skills.



You do realize that skill growth over time isn't linear, don't you? The improvements you get diminish over time. Sort of. The time to get from lvl 1 to lvl 4 is relatively small compared to the time it takes to get to 5. The curve goes up again when you get to the new skills that are typically opened up by getting a lvl 5 skill. But the returns there are also diminished. The actual growth is more like a cubic function with it's center shifted up and to the right of 0.

Learning Implants compress the function. But you can't really call them multipliers in the sense you're talking about. They don't fundamentally alter the patter over time. They just shrink the time scale to some extent.

Except for gear (read: ships) that adds a per lvl bonus, there's no linear relationship between gear and skill level. You can use better gear when you get a skill to a certain point.

So try this out. Run a multiple regression on total bonus applied, skill level, and time spent training. You'll find that they are highly covariant, meaning that they aren't really 3 different factors explaining actual applied (whatever variable here: DPS, EHP). They are 3 different ways of looking at the same number.

They are clearly not multiplicative. Run the same regression and include time. You'll see that time accounts for almost all the variation of whatever variable you want to look at. The other three are proxies for time.

Implants compress time. That's it. But implants are only very slightly time dependent. It takes almost no time to get Cybernetics to 4 and get relatively affordable implants that can put you on par with the vast majority of older players.

Most gear outside of implants or ships is a one-time bump in the curve. You get your skill high enough to use tech 2 gear, and when you get that gear it's a one-off improvement.

The last thing you seem to misunderstand is that the curve isn't never-ending. If you start skill x and get it to 5 two years before I do, you don't continuously get a 2-year advantage over me that I can never catch up to. I can get that skill to 5 as well, and then we're even. Because skills don't just continuously increase. They stop at 5.

If they didn't, I'd say you could have a point. But they do.

So all of your fancy math words aside, the only real point you could possibly be making is that some people have expensive stuff that gives them an advantage. Well, okay. It's true. But I don't think it's a fundamentally game-breaking problem. In fact, if there were no advantage at all to sticking with a game for a long time and building up the money to buy expensive stuff that gave you an advantage--I'm pretty sure that would be a problem.

I honestly feel like I just read fifty shades of dumb. --CCP Falcon
Corey Fumimasa
CFM Salvage
#48 - 2013-01-21 21:45:52 UTC
Glathull wrote:
Corey Fumimasa wrote:
[quote=War Kitten]

The gear difference by itself isn't too bad. Its only when it gets multiplied by implants and then that number gets multiplied again by skills.




So all of your fancy math words aside, the only real point you could possibly be making is that some people have expensive stuff that gives them an advantage. Well, okay. It's true. But I don't think it's a fundamentally game-breaking problem. In fact, if there were no advantage at all to sticking with a game for a long time and building up the money to buy expensive stuff that gave you an advantage--I'm pretty sure that would be a problem.


There's not a lot of fancy math words in my EFT comparison. Skills and gear make the vet ship considerably more than 2.5x better than the noob ship. And I don't care to really max out those numbers with faction gear and specific implants. You wont read about the stacking advantages of named gear, skills, and implants because the people that understand those relationships tend to keep their mouths shut.
Whitehound
#49 - 2013-01-21 21:52:46 UTC
Corey Fumimasa wrote:
There's not a lot of fancy math words in my EFT comparison. Skills and gear make the vet ship considerably more than 2.5x better than the noob ship. And I don't care to really max out those numbers with faction gear and specific implants. You wont read about the stacking advantages of named gear, skills, and implants because the people that understand those relationships tend to keep their mouths shut.

You are just being jealous.

Players who are found with officer gear fitted on their ships become very quickly targets of ganks and hotdrops.

Your comprehension of the game, from the mechanics to the social behaviours, is very weak. Don't try to fight it, don't ask to get help at each step, but play the game. If you cannot do this then find some other game, because you are definitely not enjoying it.

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
Whitehound
#50 - 2013-01-21 21:54:05 UTC
(double post)

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
Glathull
Warlock Assassins
#51 - 2013-01-21 21:59:46 UTC
Corey Fumimasa wrote:


There's not a lot of fancy math words in my EFT comparison. Skills and gear make the vet ship considerably more than 2.5x better than the noob ship. And I don't care to really max out those numbers with faction gear and specific implants. You wont read about the stacking advantages of named gear, skills, and implants because the people that understand those relationships tend to keep their mouths shut.



I was referencing one of your earlier posts about multiplying vectors, in case that wasn't clear in the rest of my post that you didn't seem to read. But maybe I was thinking of someone else.

I honestly feel like I just read fifty shades of dumb. --CCP Falcon
Corey Fumimasa
CFM Salvage
#52 - 2013-01-21 22:00:28 UTC
Whitehound wrote:
Corey Fumimasa wrote:
There's not a lot of fancy math words in my EFT comparison. Skills and gear make the vet ship considerably more than 2.5x better than the noob ship. And I don't care to really max out those numbers with faction gear and specific implants. You wont read about the stacking advantages of named gear, skills, and implants because the people that understand those relationships tend to keep their mouths shut.

You are just being jealous.

Players who are found with officer gear fitted on their ships become very quickly targets of ganks and hotdrops.

Your comprehension of the game, from the mechanics to the social behaviours, is very weak. Don't try to fight it, don't ask to get help at each step, but play the game. If you cannot do this then find some other game, because you are definitely not enjoying it.

Your trying to hypnotize me! Thats what the double post post thing is. It wont work I tell you...I am enjoying....am I enjoying it......double post so sleepy...I am definaate...Straight

Straight


Ugh


What happened, where am I. Must protect care bears! Grr where's the Goons, I must pewpew Goons! GRRRREvil
Corey Fumimasa
CFM Salvage
#53 - 2013-01-21 22:05:07 UTC
Glathull wrote:
Corey Fumimasa wrote:


There's not a lot of fancy math words in my EFT comparison. Skills and gear make the vet ship considerably more than 2.5x better than the noob ship. And I don't care to really max out those numbers with faction gear and specific implants. You wont read about the stacking advantages of named gear, skills, and implants because the people that understand those relationships tend to keep their mouths shut.



I was referencing one of your earlier posts about multiplying vectors, in case that wasn't clear in the rest of my post that you didn't seem to read. But maybe I was thinking of someone else.


Oh I got that, which is why I double checked my own incompetent math and misunderstanding with EFT. Go figure, it matched my screwy math results.

Check it yourself, don't argue with me. Fire up EFT and run a ship through.
Corey Fumimasa
CFM Salvage
#54 - 2013-01-21 22:17:04 UTC
Glathull wrote:
Corey Fumimasa wrote:


There's not a lot of fancy math words in my EFT comparison. Skills and gear make the vet ship considerably more than 2.5x better than the noob ship. And I don't care to really max out those numbers with faction gear and specific implants. You wont read about the stacking advantages of named gear, skills, and implants because the people that understand those relationships tend to keep their mouths shut.



I was referencing one of your earlier posts about multiplying vectors, in case that wasn't clear in the rest of my post that you didn't seem to read. But maybe I was thinking of someone else.

I read your post and I appreciate the work that you put into it. TY for that. But towards the end you said something about "my misunderstanding". Which kind of ...WTF ed me for a few.

I'm not making **** up here. Maybe I'm not good at explaining math, but I don't have to be. As I said before sit down with EFT and run some numbers. And be aware that EFT completely ignores situational advantage which is also greatly modified by skill; things like better tracking and range on your guns, overheat, any speed tank effect, and the elephant in the cargo hold that is cap.
Corey Fumimasa
CFM Salvage
#55 - 2013-01-21 22:22:45 UTC
Whitehound wrote:
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:
Anywho, let me flip the question: if the "massive, insurmountable, and deeply unfair advantage" you speak of is so negligible in reality, why are "old hands" with said SP advantage soooooooo reluctant to give it up?

What's so difficult to understand? Because we like to win over noobs and we enjoy it when we can do it with ease.


Oh I understand it just fine. I just want to make sure that the hoards of screaming children understand.
Dalmont Delantee
Gecko Corp
#56 - 2013-01-22 00:03:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Dalmont Delantee
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:
Myrissa Kistel wrote:
Eve is hitting the 10 year mark. I would say that is longevity.

Other than that, I have no idea what you are talking about.


True. It is also doing it without hitting the 500k subscription mark, and many, if not most, of the existing subscriptions are alt accounts.

That is nothing to brag about to hoist up on a flag. Consider other MMOs - WoW with its current 10 mil subs (most of which are NOT alt accounts), with a high of 13 million, after 8+ years? Now that's something. Or Aion, when it was paid, reaching roughly 4 mil? Or GW2 in its early access weekend (pre-orders only) reaching 400k concurrent users. Compare that to EVE's peak of 68k? Yeah...

Look, nobody's claiming EVE is dying. But you'd be silly to say EVE is doing fine. It's stagnating, and has been for years. And arguably the only reason it even lasted so long is because it had virtually zero competition in the sci-fi spaceship area. There really haven't been (m)any games of this type. With strong competition the likes of which fantasy genre MMOs experience, the game could have been dead five times over.

Are subscriptions growing? Yeah, probably, albeit very slowly. Are they growing due to new people, or just more alt accounts? CCP knows, but they won't tell you. And let's face it, not even 500k after 10 years? When other MMOs have 4-22x more? Nothing to shout from the rooftops about.


So lets see, most of the people I know stopped played Wow ages ago, new accounts are rare and their subscriber base is dropping. The game was successful in its niche.

Aion, I've known one person play aion, aren't all their players korean and love the grind?

GW2, buy to play, over hyped trash, numbers dropped right away.

EVE, growing, sustaining players for years and top of its niche. I think thats succesful myself.

Plus if you don't like it go away. If you want all the kids and emo's who play wow playing then please, send them all a buddy invite, should be plenty of plexes for you when they sub.
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#57 - 2013-01-22 00:22:36 UTC
Corey Fumimasa wrote:


That's entirely the point, it wasn't designed to last for 10 years.



Tell us exactly how long it was designed to last. Question

Apparently you know.

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882
Rellik B00n
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#58 - 2013-01-22 01:22:22 UTC
as long as the character bazaar exists and humans remain human your argument is invalid.

in fact your whole premise is incredibly shaky:

I enjoy the luxury of my fairly high SP having earned it over many years.

So i fit my slave set and etc and get in my faction fit tech 3 cruiser, only to get ganked by a rifter, a blackbird and a thorax. I cry as I watch my 300k EHP ship die to these T1 ships because I failed to consider that players working together are (mostly) better off than players working alone.

ask the goons, this is exactly what they did and look at them now.

numbers wins, so your whilst your are correct in saying I have more SP to my ship is better than any given newb your argument fails because you are not considering the reality, just the part of it you wish to see.

its similar in many ways to the player that builds a great ship in EFT then cant understand why it melts in 10 seconds under real conditions.
[Of a request for change ask: Who Benefits?](https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=199765)
AstraPardus
Earthside Mixlabs
#59 - 2013-01-22 01:31:53 UTC
I refuse to believe a decelerating power curve until I see a graph.

Graph or get off your soapbox! Rabblerabblerabble!!!
Every time I post is Pardy time! :3
ISD Tyrozan
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#60 - 2013-01-22 02:15:51 UTC
Topic has become a trolling topic. Locked.

ISD Tyrozan

Captain

Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

Interstellar Services Department

@ISDTyrozan | @ISD_CCL
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