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Plurimus Libertas

Author
Mekhana
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#101 - 2013-01-21 21:46:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Mekhana
Mr. Khan

Allow me to tell you the tale of two men:

One was born into slavery. He did nothing but serve others his entire life. One day he is set free. What is his reaction? He does absolutely nothing. It's as if the entire universe opened to him as now he has a whole different reality and has to find a new purpose in his life. Many years later he will realize that there's no quest for purpose that there is no mystery. His person, his very individual is the key, it was always there all along. Do you believe this man would return to servitude, to that warm cage? No he would not.

A warm cage is still a cage. Once you step outside it and embrace the outside world, you'll preffer to freeze outside then ask to return inside.

The other man:

This man was born free. One day he is abducted and spends several years in servitude. He becomes a shadow of his former self, he lost his personality and individuality. He's no longer a person, he's an object. One day he is set free again. Do you think this man forgot how precious freedom is? He did not. It was the only thing that remained alive inside of him.

Needless to say both men will never look back. Because both men were given a choice and understood how important that choice was. If the Amarr Empire gave a choice for all slaves to be free if they so desired their entire society would collapse.

So in the end, the Amarr Empire's salvation is ultimately ignorance.

Vide longe er eros di Luminaire VII, uni canse pra krage e determiniex! Sange por Sange! Descanse bravex eros, mie freires. Mortir por vostre Liberete, farmilie, ide e amis. lons Proviste sen mort! Luminaire liber mas! 

Lucas Raholan
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
#102 - 2013-01-21 21:46:57 UTC
We can debate the nature off this attack all we want, the facts are that the Minmater Republic intentionally breached Empire borders in what will only serve to ignite further tension in the region, for this I wholeheartedly condemn this abduction.

What the Minmater republic seem to forget is that there are millions of Minmater free within the Amarr empire faithfully serving in faith to our god, this has been their own choice, it is even evidenced by factions within Minmater refugee camps that still wish to follow in the Amarrian faith as shown in previously linked news stories, the republic seems to ignore this and declares that we hand over every single Matari within the empires borders with the assumption that every one MUST be a mistreated slave being brutalised by their evil Holders, I myself am a holder, yet I have never once mistreated the Matari that serve under me, many in fact have faithfully of there own accord taken up the faith and been freed under the Reclaiming and have since chosen to stay on as a loyal member of crew.
Although many of the 'Freedom Fighters' would simply claim that I have somehow brainwashed them into it, I assure you I have not .

Anyway enough of my ramblings.

Shitposts so bad CONCORD gave me a 50 billion ISK bounty

Mekhana
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#103 - 2013-01-21 21:58:23 UTC
Lucas Raholan wrote:
brutalised by their evil Holders, I myself am a holder, yet I have never once mistreated the Matari that serve under me, many in fact have faithfully of there own accord taken up the faith and been freed under the Reclaiming and have since chosen to stay on as a loyal member of crew.


Although I'm not judging your capability to be humane. Don't you think you are exagerating just a little? I'm a captain of a ship and and although I treat my crew with much respect I have had to show authority and make decisions despite the feelings of certain individuals.

You are just making yourself look silly.

Vide longe er eros di Luminaire VII, uni canse pra krage e determiniex! Sange por Sange! Descanse bravex eros, mie freires. Mortir por vostre Liberete, farmilie, ide e amis. lons Proviste sen mort! Luminaire liber mas! 

Simon Louvaki
Khaldari InnoTektoniks and Analytical Solutions
#104 - 2013-01-21 22:02:07 UTC
Mekhana wrote:
Mr. Khan

Allow me to tell you the tale of two men:

One was born into slavery. He did nothing but serve others his entire life. One day he is set free. What is his reaction? He does absolutely nothing. It's as if the entire universe opened to him as now he has a whole different reality and has to find a new purpose in his life. Many years later he will realize that there's no quest for purpose that there is no mystery. His person, his very individual is the key, it was always there all along. Do you believe this man would return to servitude, to that warm cage? No he would not.

A warm cage is still a cage. Once you step outside it and embrace the outside world, you'll preffer to freeze outside then ask to return inside.

The other man:

This man was born free. One day he is abducted and spends several years in servitude. He becomes a shadow of his former self, he lost his personality and individuality. He's no longer a person, he's an object. One day he is set free again. Do you think this man forgot how precious freedom is? He did not. It was the only thing that remained alive inside of him.

Needless to say both men will never look back. Because both men were given a choice and understood how important that choice was. If the Amarr Empire gave a choice for all slaves to be free if they so desired their entire society would collapse.

So in the end, the Amarr Empire's salvation is ultimately ignorance.


Its unwise to think one knows the heart of every man. Pretty words do not translate into practicality and I have a feeling you have never been a slave, so its even more unwise to pretend to speak for one. I humbly suggest you spend some time among the Amarr, learn their culture rather than judge it, and you just might find your entire understanding of the Empire turned upside down.

-- "The weak of mind are quick to judge with slightest tempt; Thus fools go forth to spread false word." - The Scriptures, Book of Trials 2:13 - 2:21

--"At the narrow passage, there is no brother and no friend." - Hyasyoda Proverb

Lucas Raholan
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
#105 - 2013-01-21 22:08:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Lucas Raholan
Quote:
Although I'm not judging your capability to be humane. Don't you think you are exagerating just a little? I'm a captain of a ship and and although I treat my crew with much respect I have had to show authority and make decisions despite the feelings of certain individuals.



To me there is a distinction between Mistreating and enforcing discipline, in that with discipline appropriate punishment is necessary , however I do not enact violence or lesser treatment toward the Matari crew simply because I own them and would see them as a 'lesser species' if these freedom fighters where to be believed.

I run my ship just like every other ship, if my amarrian or Matari breach rule then appropriate punishment will be dealt based on the severity of the breach regardless of what their ethnicity is

I hope I have made myself clear, It would pain me to have people misinterpret my word

Shitposts so bad CONCORD gave me a 50 billion ISK bounty

Mekhana
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#106 - 2013-01-21 22:12:20 UTC
Simon Louvaki wrote:
[ I have a feeling you have never been a slave.


You bet I haven't. You can try to take my freedom away but its going to cost your life. After all you'd be trying to take mine away from me. Eye for an eye. I believe this is something the Amarr god speaks of.

And no I don't need to understand something so vile and primitive as slavery. Everyone frowns upon it, even the wiser Amarr do.

Vide longe er eros di Luminaire VII, uni canse pra krage e determiniex! Sange por Sange! Descanse bravex eros, mie freires. Mortir por vostre Liberete, farmilie, ide e amis. lons Proviste sen mort! Luminaire liber mas! 

Mekhana
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#107 - 2013-01-21 22:14:02 UTC
Lucas Raholan wrote:
Quote:
Although I'm not judging your capability to be humane. Don't you think you are exagerating just a little? I'm a captain of a ship and and although I treat my crew with much respect I have had to show authority and make decisions despite the feelings of certain individuals.



To me there is a distinction between Mistreating and enforcing discipline, in that with discipline appropriate punishment is necessary , however I do not enact violence or lesser treatment toward the Matari crew simply because I own them and would see them as a 'lesser species' if these freedom fighters where to be believed.

I run my ship just like every other ship, if my amarrian or Matari breach rule then appropriate punishment will be dealt based on the severity of the breach regardless of what their ethnicity is

I hope I have made myself clear, It would pain me to have people misinterpret my word


Very well then, point taken.

Vide longe er eros di Luminaire VII, uni canse pra krage e determiniex! Sange por Sange! Descanse bravex eros, mie freires. Mortir por vostre Liberete, farmilie, ide e amis. lons Proviste sen mort! Luminaire liber mas! 

Simon Louvaki
Khaldari InnoTektoniks and Analytical Solutions
#108 - 2013-01-21 22:42:22 UTC
Mekhana wrote:
Simon Louvaki wrote:
[ I have a feeling you have never been a slave.


And no I don't need to understand something so vile and primitive as slavery. Everyone frowns upon it, even the wiser Amarr do.


Then you have no bases to criticize it. Refusal of knowledge because it's easier to vilify something you don't understand is to live in ignorance Mrs. Mekhana. Slavery in Amarr isn't about labor, its about spiritual purification and tribulation. Slavery isn't meant to be permanent in Amarrian Religion, its not meant to exploit the masses of conquered people, its a means of uplifting.

-- "The weak of mind are quick to judge with slightest tempt; Thus fools go forth to spread false word." - The Scriptures, Book of Trials 2:13 - 2:21

--"At the narrow passage, there is no brother and no friend." - Hyasyoda Proverb

Mekhana
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#109 - 2013-01-21 22:56:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Mekhana
Simon Louvaki wrote:
Mekhana wrote:
Simon Louvaki wrote:
[ I have a feeling you have never been a slave.


And no I don't need to understand something so vile and primitive as slavery. Everyone frowns upon it, even the wiser Amarr do.


Then you have no bases to criticize it. Refusal of knowledge because it's easier to vilify something you don't understand is to live in ignorance Mrs. Mekhana. Slavery in Amarr isn't about labor, its about spiritual purification and tribulation. Slavery isn't meant to be permanent in Amarrian Religion, its not meant to exploit the masses of conquered people, its a means of uplifting.


I can't vilify something that is already vile Mr. Louvaki. You clearly also don't understand the concepts of individualism and liberty and on the other hand while you have mingled with enslavers I have been mingling with the enslaved. There's two sides to this coin Mr. Louvaki but only one of them is scarred and stained with blood, the heavier side stays beneath being crushed against the ground..

Certainly it's not yours.

Vide longe er eros di Luminaire VII, uni canse pra krage e determiniex! Sange por Sange! Descanse bravex eros, mie freires. Mortir por vostre Liberete, farmilie, ide e amis. lons Proviste sen mort! Luminaire liber mas! 

Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#110 - 2013-01-21 22:56:57 UTC
Flavius Arcturus wrote:
fixed that for you.


You should be aware that manipulatively editing ("fixing") posts is against CRC regulations - no doubt, having no personality beyond that of a walking Amarrian stereotype, you believe that these regulations do not apply to you.

As for this:

Flavius Arcturus wrote:
You may well see me soon enough.


I doubt it, but disappointment in Amarrians is by no means a sensation I lack experience in coping with.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.

Sloth Arnini
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#111 - 2013-01-21 23:00:59 UTC
So, on the one hand, we have several independently verified accounts of disagreeable behaviour and incompetence in the Minmatar Republic. Which detract from the actual debate. Being Minmatar sadly doesn't stop people or populations from being bigoted, incompetent or stupid. Those qualities kind of come with the territory of being human.

On the other we have some anecdotes about how lovely various representatives of the Empire are.

Which means either

a) The Amarr Empire is a genuine utopia.

or

b) Someone works pretty hard to ensure that a broader picture the Empire doesn't reach the capsuleer audience.

Since it wouldn't make much sense to rebel against living in paradise, I think we can disregard a)

On the one hand then, we have independent reports of disagreeable behaviour and incompetence in the Minmatar Republic. This kind of implies the existence of a free-ish media providing some kind of no doubt imperfect oversight.

On the other, we have no such independent reports of what happens in the Empire. I wonder what is hidden behind what passes for their noble vanguard telling us how gently and humanely they treat their chattels.

I'm sure these are neither new insights, nor especially pertinent to the matter at hand, but since the other side have been running off on the tangent of slave treatment, I think that invites consideration of other not quite salient tangents.

Well, I've now got access to 1.3 million anecdotes of what life in the Empire is like. I think 1.3 million anecdotes outweigh the half-dozen or so here. Since my sharing them would of course invite accusations of bias, coercion and probably brainwashing, purloined Sansha implants, whacky baccy and cheese bribery, there is little point in doing so. That said, maybe we could establish that providing an independent voice for these 1.3 million people, not to mention slaves still bound in the Empire might at least allow for something superficially resembling a scientifically grounded debate.

Not that it will happen of course. No doubt asking slaves to tell the world about the Empire would lead them off the path to salvation. Best keep them on it with the whips and the transcranial microcontrollers.

In the meantime, the facts remain that if I see an Amarr partisan in space, I'll shoot them (unless their ship is better than mine of course, in which case I'll hide or run as appropriate). If there is another opportunity to spring some slaves across the border, I'll take that as well. Then I'll have even more anecdotes to weigh against those you holders are keen to spout
Ston Momaki
Disciples of Ston
#112 - 2013-01-21 23:05:46 UTC
Simon Louvaki wrote:
Slavery in Amarr isn't about labor, its about spiritual purification and tribulation. Slavery isn't meant to be permanent in Amarrian Religion, its not meant to exploit the masses of conquered people, its a means of uplifting.


There is need for a clarification in this whole discussion. There are two very separate slavery realities in New Eden. There are those as Mr. Louvaki describes who adhere to the religious elements of slavery as a part of Amarrian religious belief. There is another element, however. Capsuleers of any race, religion, belief system, etc may purchase any number of slaves they wish from capsuleer markets anywhere in any of the sovereignties. Right now, today, a capsuleer pilot with sufficient means may purchase millions of slaves for any reason. Amarrian, Minmatar, Gallente, Caldari, etc. pilots can buy slaves. They are not required by any law to do the religious thing described in the quote above. Nothing is required but the money to meet the asking price. These same pilots may do whatever they wish and take these slaves wherever they wish as long as they do not get caught by customs in space where slave transport is illegal.

There are millions upon millions of slaves mostly in Amarr and Khanid space that have absolutely no connection with Amarrian religious practices at all. They are just simply, for sale, no questions asked. Capsuleer owned slaves; that is the subject of this thread. This has nothing to do with Amarrian holders and devout followers of Amarrian religion. It has everything to do with capsuleers buying a selling slaves as a mere market item.

The Disciples of Ston bid you peace

Simon Louvaki
Khaldari InnoTektoniks and Analytical Solutions
#113 - 2013-01-21 23:10:54 UTC
Mekhana wrote:
Simon Louvaki wrote:
Mekhana wrote:
Simon Louvaki wrote:
[ I have a feeling you have never been a slave.


And no I don't need to understand something so vile and primitive as slavery. Everyone frowns upon it, even the wiser Amarr do.


Then you have no bases to criticize it. Refusal of knowledge because it's easier to vilify something you don't understand is to live in ignorance Mrs. Mekhana. Slavery in Amarr isn't about labor, its about spiritual purification and tribulation. Slavery isn't meant to be permanent in Amarrian Religion, its not meant to exploit the masses of conquered people, its a means of uplifting.


I can't vilify something that is already vile Mr. Louvaki. You clearly also don't understand the concepts of individualism and liberty and on the other hand while you have mingled with enslavers I have been mingling with the enslaved. There's two sides to this coin Mr. Louvaki but only one of them is scarred and stained with blood, the heavier side stays beneath being crushed against the ground..

Certainly it's not yours.


I understand them just fine Mrs. Mekhana.

You see, my mother was a slave in the Khanid Kingdom and my father a State diplomat. I spent the majority of my youth among the 'slavers' and the enslaved in the Khanid Kingdom, so please ma'am, try to avoid this moral high ground when speaking to someone who spent their young life amongst the very people you claim are vile and those you claim to champion. I've lived it. Ask the Ni-Kunni and the Tash-Murkons if slavery was bad for their people or any of the other former slave race who now enjoy status in the Empire. Now if you were to ask me if I believe in slavery and I would say 'no'. I don't own slaves would I never aspire to, but that doesn't prevent me from understanding the clusters premier power that employees them and seeing the very tangible benefits that eventually emerged from it. I know many slaves who are far better off than some of the poor factory workers in the State.

You might also consider the blood bought by the Minmatar Elders next time you claim that only one side is 'stained with blood'. Just as much blood has been spilled in the name of 'liberty' as has been in the name of 'tyranny'.

-- "The weak of mind are quick to judge with slightest tempt; Thus fools go forth to spread false word." - The Scriptures, Book of Trials 2:13 - 2:21

--"At the narrow passage, there is no brother and no friend." - Hyasyoda Proverb

Lucas Raholan
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
#114 - 2013-01-21 23:19:19 UTC
Ston Momaki wrote:
Simon Louvaki wrote:
Slavery in Amarr isn't about labor, its about spiritual purification and tribulation. Slavery isn't meant to be permanent in Amarrian Religion, its not meant to exploit the masses of conquered people, its a means of uplifting.


There is another element, however. Capsuleers of any race, religion, belief system, etc may purchase any number of slaves they wish from capsuleer markets anywhere in any of the sovereignties. Right now, today, a capsuleer pilot with sufficient means may purchase millions of slaves for any reason. Amarrian, Minmatar, Gallente, Caldari, etc. pilots can buy slaves. They are not required by any law to do the religious thing described in the quote above. Nothing is required but the money to meet the asking price. These same pilots may do whatever they wish and take these slaves wherever they wish as long as they do not get caught by customs in space where slave transport is illegal.

There are millions upon millions of slaves mostly in Amarr and Khanid space that have absolutely no connection with Amarrian religious practices at all. They are just simply, for sale, no questions asked. Capsuleer owned slaves; that is the subject of this thread. This has nothing to do with Amarrian holders and devout followers of Amarrian religion. It has everything to do with capsuleers buying a selling slaves as a mere market item.


It is this kind of Slavery that many Amarr also disagree with, rather then be used for uplifting it is used for simple cheap labour, I myself abhor this form of slavery, many of the capsuleers who purchase these market slaves are not so humane as I am or indeed other's within this thread, While Slavery within Amarr in the name of the reclaiming serves a purpose, even gives the slaves opportunity's even slim ones , market brought slaves have none and are quite often subject to far greater mistreatment then anything the empire may or may not have inflicted upon the Minmater, yes not every holder is kindhearted (or even sane) however many of us are starting to see a different way to how we manage our slaves....

I fear no such hope can be seen for this private slave owners who only see numbers and profit.

Shitposts so bad CONCORD gave me a 50 billion ISK bounty

Mekhana
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#115 - 2013-01-21 23:20:36 UTC
Mr. Louvaki,

If you clearly believe that then you clearly haven't paid much attention to Amarr history but I won't hold you to this much lack of knowledge just that you just wish to conveniently forget it at this moment.

You can tell me about people that have embraced slavery and I won't try deny it. There's all kinds of freaks of this universe. However my prespective takes human nature in mind and human nature always wins. Your prespective takes mythological religious beliefs.

When the dam cracks, the water will flow. It will leak at first but eventually the water will burst out and will crush and flood everything in it's way.

The rebellion is a good example.

Vide longe er eros di Luminaire VII, uni canse pra krage e determiniex! Sange por Sange! Descanse bravex eros, mie freires. Mortir por vostre Liberete, farmilie, ide e amis. lons Proviste sen mort! Luminaire liber mas! 

Simon Louvaki
Khaldari InnoTektoniks and Analytical Solutions
#116 - 2013-01-21 23:59:21 UTC
Mekhana wrote:
Mr. Louvaki,

If you clearly believe that then you clearly haven't paid much attention to Amarr history but I won't hold you to this much lack of knowledge just that you just wish to conveniently forget it at this moment.

You can tell me about people that have embraced slavery and I won't try deny it. There's all kinds of freaks of this universe. However my prespective takes human nature in mind and human nature always wins. Your prespective takes mythological religious beliefs.

When the dam cracks, the water will flow. It will leak at first but eventually the water will burst out and will crush and flood everything in it's way.

The rebellion is a good example.


Mrs. Mekhana,

I would love for you to point out the gaps in my knowledge of Amarr history, and I'm not quite sure what your referring to; What is it exactly that I am 'forgetting'?

Also, I'm not here to trade meaningless jabs. Your free to judge however you see fit, thats your right, I simply implore you to expand your mind a bit before making your judgment. Criticism without a proper understanding of what your criticizing is unbecoming. Its also rather disheartening to see you denounce another people as 'freaks' simply because they don't share your same path of progress. The Ni-Kunni are not freak because they embraced the Amarrian religion and chose to rise above there station rather than rally against it; in the end it worked out well for them. Our perspectives may be different, but would you say you could argue with the results? Again, I don't support slavery, I support understanding before judgment.

The Matari rebellion affected some, not all Matari slaves. There is a reason a quarter or more still live in slavery, and an even bigger reason why even more live in the Federation

-- "The weak of mind are quick to judge with slightest tempt; Thus fools go forth to spread false word." - The Scriptures, Book of Trials 2:13 - 2:21

--"At the narrow passage, there is no brother and no friend." - Hyasyoda Proverb

Mekhana
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#117 - 2013-01-22 00:05:33 UTC
Very well then I shall respect your opinion Mr Louvaki but that won't stop me from expressing myself I'm afraid.

I have one question however if slavery is such a great thing why is that you don't support it? That was very suprising.

Vide longe er eros di Luminaire VII, uni canse pra krage e determiniex! Sange por Sange! Descanse bravex eros, mie freires. Mortir por vostre Liberete, farmilie, ide e amis. lons Proviste sen mort! Luminaire liber mas! 

Katran Luftschreck
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
#118 - 2013-01-22 00:32:58 UTC
Mekhana wrote:
This man was born free. One day he is abducted and spends several years in servitude. He becomes a shadow of his former self, he lost his personality and individuality. He's no longer a person, he's an object. One day he is set free again.


... at which point she immediately returns to her Amarrian home & family.

http://youtu.be/t0q2F8NsYQ0

Mekhana
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#119 - 2013-01-22 00:36:01 UTC
Katran Luftschreck wrote:
Mekhana wrote:
This man was born free. One day he is abducted and spends several years in servitude. He becomes a shadow of his former self, he lost his personality and individuality. He's no longer a person, he's an object. One day he is set free again.


... at which point she immediately returns to her Amarrian home & family.


I don't think you read the story very well. All the man knows about home and family are back in his homeworld where he was taken away from against his will.

Vide longe er eros di Luminaire VII, uni canse pra krage e determiniex! Sange por Sange! Descanse bravex eros, mie freires. Mortir por vostre Liberete, farmilie, ide e amis. lons Proviste sen mort! Luminaire liber mas! 

Simon Louvaki
Khaldari InnoTektoniks and Analytical Solutions
#120 - 2013-01-22 00:40:13 UTC
Mekhana wrote:
Very well then I shall respect your opinion Mr Louvaki but that won't stop me from expressing myself I'm afraid.

I have one question however if slavery is such a great thing why is that you don't support it? That was very suprising.


Mrs. Mekhana,

I wouldn't have you retract your opinion, just expand it. As for your question, I suppose its in part due to the Caldari in me. Slavery is non-existent in Caldari culture, or at least absent in the form practiced by Amarr. Economic slavery however is another all together and whole heartedly less noble. I've also seen both side of the Amarrian brand of servitude; I've seen cruel and spiteful Holders who seek nothing but profit off the labor of his charges and I've seen the noble and kind Holders who hold true to the Scriptures, guiding his charges rather than misusing them.

A good Holder is nothing more than a medium between the child and the father; a teacher more or less. Through servitude to the Holder and Amarr a slave can break free of his physical and spiritual chains respectively, much like a Holder through servitude to Amarr can break his mortal chains and reach purity and then heaven. I don't support it because I believe there are other ways to lead the lost to Amarr and I've seen my fair share of broken slaves. I also believe that spirit brought into the fold willingly and through vision of the truth is more valuable than one who is forced towards it.

That doesn't mean however that I will look down on my Amarrian brothers because they don't share the same path to God as I do.

-- "The weak of mind are quick to judge with slightest tempt; Thus fools go forth to spread false word." - The Scriptures, Book of Trials 2:13 - 2:21

--"At the narrow passage, there is no brother and no friend." - Hyasyoda Proverb