Wormholes

Only the damnation got blabbed by a moros, and looking at the dreads that tagged on all other killmails, those dreads were irrelevant to the subcap loses in that fight.

Do you have something more relevant?

Ok seriously?

As a moros pilot who was fighting in the defense of my home system in december, I can tell you that dreads do NOT have an easy time tracking t3s. With 19 dreads on field, we were seeing targets that were called primary live for WAY too long even though they were webbed and painted to the size of moons. With 19 dreads locking up a ham legion, pre t2 missile change where its sig was already freaking huge, it lived for WAY too long. I personally shot at several t3s moving at 12-20ms and falling, thanks to webs, for several cycles until finally getting a barely hits for 9k.

And thats usually what dreads do to tech 3s. We dont lock up t3s and watch them melt in a fiery balls of death in the wake of our mighty gaze... we curse ourselves for several cycles of our guns until we FINALLY score a hit and bring it down to half structure so our web lokis can finish the job, or shoot at something our lokis put into half armor so our glancing blow for 7k can finish it off.

Too many people see the moros as the death star from return of the jedi. When the emporer (FC) says "Fire at will" we dont lock up the nearest battleship and destroy it in one hit (unless it is sitting 100 percent still) we have to wait for our lokis to web it down and shoot it down in 3-4 hits.

If you want to fix the issue, dont nerf the damage of the moros, reduce the tracking SLIGHTLY. (10 percent MAX) and bring the dps of a rev up to about 10 percent under the moros and give it the same tracking as the moros. Then fix the nag and the pheonix. (Not going into how as this isnt the issue.)

And for those wondering about my turret skills, my support skills are almost all level 5. The only thing 4 are surgical strike and trajectory analysis. Neither of those have anything to do with tracking. (Trajectory analysis only indirectly affects tracking) And I fit my pvp moros with 3 t2 tracking computers. (Scripts switched out as needs arise) So my fits and my skills are par for the course on this one. Dreads just dont track as well as everyone thinks.

I believe in their current form dreads are a non-issue in upper class wormholes. While yes they can do massive amounts of damage, this is why we call the "dreads" in the first place, they were designed to blap everything in their path, and smaller ships (if it can be properly pinned by a fleet ofc). I also believe if dreads were to be removed from wormhole space you would see a drop in the number of wormhole sieges and wormhole combat thus lowering the numbers of wormhole PvP groups. But this is just my 2c.

I just dont see a real problem. The tracking of the moros is a tad bit high, but its not over powered as many are saying. Ive seen a moros miss my bhaalgorn from 20k out while I was going 30ms for several cycles until he finally got a lucky hit in and pushed me into half armor. And ive been on the flip side of the coin. I locked up a domi on the test server that was 30k out sitting perfectly still and took it into heavy structure until he was moving at 40ms and I was unable to finish him off. My guns just wouldnt track. That was with 4 t2 tracking computers (tracking scripts loaded) and a t2 tracking enhancer.

Honestly you could say the same about pantheon carriers. While not as effectively fielded outside of home or in an invasion scenario where you have 15-20, they can put out some serious and more effective firepower against subs. If even 10 archons were fielded and deployed 10 garde 2s each and assisted them to their webbing lokis or rapiers, then you would have subs dieing at a faster rate than if 10 dreads were on the field as the carriers dont have to bother locking up their targets. The lokis do all the work for them.

My point isnt that caps are OP as they clearly arent. Its that we have the ability to field them with almost relative impunity thanks to it being impossible to cyno into us with 30 HBC/CFC/SOCO/Whatever else alliance has fat stacks of supers. The only real problems we have to face are logonskis, people opening up into the fight, and getting trapped in a WH with a c4-c1 static.

8 dreads and a support fleet?

or do you wanna be able to win that with only t3s? then bring plenty to make sure you kill the lokis before all your fleet is dead... it's kinda obvious

Would 8 defending dreads, spread out, even need a lot of webbing? Any target will probably always have minimum transversal to at least one of them. Isn't the biggest problem that the attackers are always limited to 3 capitals maximum in any spontaneous encounter, while the defenders can have unlimited amounts of them?

If there was some feasible way to limit the number of caps in a hole or on a grid...

20K is not spread out. You said you had ammo with a 60K optimal, perhaps you ought to look at things when you are 60K out.

Omen's post up above is spot on. Those of us that either field dread fleets or run into them often think this is a problem. How large of a problem is open to some debate, which I am happy to have with folks. If CCP decided to solve the problem, there would also be a chance for people to discuss the potential fix.

Lets look at this objectionally. Even if dreads are nerfed, it would not matter much as the people who field the dreads would just alter their fleets to compensate. Use more vigilants to web and paint now instead of lokis so that your velocity is even lower.

The problem isnt that dreads are OP its that the moros is overbalanced. I would be happy with a ten percent reduction in tracking on the moros. But to even that out all turrets, not just dread turrets, need to have the same base tracking per class. This does not mean same optimal and falloff. I mean all turrets should really be turning at the same speed before any ammo is loaded. Its the only thing that really makes sense. If the rev nag and moros could all track the same, and the rev doing maybe 15 percent less dps than the moros, then that would be a fair balance.

Nerfing all dreads because one of them is a tad OP is never the answer.

I put off reading this because the title alone made me groan. Chiming in with, "My issue with dread blapping," is disappointing. I skimmed through the rest of these pages. You're quite alone where that's concerned. Who are these other corps and alliances that agree with you? All I've seen were your corpmates, really. I certainly don't. I'm sure KILL doesn't either. Balance Moros with other dreads, sure, but leave dreads doing what we all love them doing, please. Also, get back in touch with the rest of the wspace community...

Edit: If the concern was that no one will fight you anymore because you can too many dreads, jump into their home and fight them? Leroying is effing fun.

Maybe if you stopped "skimming" and tried reading you wouldn't have had to ask this...

VoC, K162, Exhale, to name a few. Of course there's disagreement even within these alliances—which is why we're having this discussion in the first place. There are people spread out among a lot of alliances who agree with Two Step that dreads (the Moros in particular) are slightly imbalanced in w-space pvp.

But I'm done posting here. I respect most of the people posting in here, even if I disagree with them. Whatever the case, I'm confident that when Fozzie gets to Dreads he'll know what to do.