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The pointlessness of Fuel Blocks (From an Industrialists perspective)
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Malcorian Vandsteidt
Alpha Trades
Solyaris Chtonium
#21 - 2013-01-21 21:42:44 UTC
Hakan MacTrew wrote:
Malcorian Vandsteidt wrote:
Astroniomix wrote:
Malcorian Vandsteidt wrote:

(I should also mention this toon is a Station trader. So good luck killing him, he never undocks).

For a station trader you sure have a bunch of losses.


I didn't say he was always a station trader. I used to fly with him a lot. Now I mostly do industry on my other toon's. And the KB for this character is incorrect. As it is on most older players Kb's. I know I have more kills then it lists. Just like I know I have more losses then it lists also. The kb only tracks a few years, it wont track stuff from way back when as all KM's are deleted from the servers after a period of time. (They expire basically) A year or 2 from now those POS kills on my KM wont be there anymore.

Only players who haven't learned that a Killboard means jack **** in Eve rely on one to assess a player and their ability. I could have had 500 kills and 150 losses 4 years ago for all you know, but since the KB system doesn't track that (Or rather keep records that long), you'd never know.

A KB is useful to gather current (Recent) PvP activity about a player, that's it. For someone like me who has participated in multiple professions over the years and who doesn't pvp sometimes for years on end, My kill board would be useless to you. And many of those I have killed in the past found that out the hard way when I popped 2.5 billion ISK worth of their ship. (One guy actually said something like, Dude.. wtf man your killboard sucks howed you kill me? To which I responded, putting your faith in a KB to judge a person is the worst thing you can do in Eve.)

Not to mention a new player can simply buy a character with a very nice killboard...... Just saying.

So yea A KB is a useless piece of trash not even worth bothering with except maybe to check the fitting and loss value of a ship you "just" killed. Or to check recent intelligence for activity of a player and their enemies.

I wouldn't expect People who only PvP and worship their KB and who have no desire to learn about or play any other part of Eve, to understand this however.

You say all this, but still have no come back on the fact that all of your reasoning for your OP have no basis other than "I tink it will make my life in WH's easier".


Actually it'll make a lot of peoples lives easier in both 0.0, Wh,a nd highsec... Not sure what the problem is.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#22 - 2013-01-21 21:56:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
As an industrialist, I couldn't disagree more.
Malcorian Vandsteidt wrote:
1. The materials on the list if sold, Could buy you triple the amount of Fuel Blocks a Print makes. (40 per run).
Eh, you seem to be missing a few words here. I take it you're complaining about people manufacturing blocks for less than material costs? This has nothing to do with fuel blocks and everything to do with people not understanding opportunity cost. It does not make fuel blocks pointless.

Quote:
2. You might say but if your in a Wormhole or 0.0 you can build them and be self sufficient!... Wrong. here's why:

* In 0.0 You must own SOV to do the PI, However if you Own sov.... Your not going to really need the fuel blocks because you'll be using a station generally. Yes I realizes POS's are still used for strategic reasons.
This is wrong in every way. You are not using stations because they don't have enough capacity, and it's entirely possible to ninja-PI in null. You need massive amounts of fuel blocks if you want to do industry on any kind of scale, and that alone means that they are not pointless from an industrialist perspective.

Quote:
In other words... People are.... (some other word more eloquent then "Stupid").
Yes. This does not make fuel blocks any more pointless than T1 ships, which people often also manufacture for less than material cost. There is nothing to fix here. Your suggested adjustments will not fix this problem — it will just shift the price point.

Oh, and it's actually quite easy to save a buck by building your own blocks if you play the market right.
So no, fuel blocks are not pointless.
Juan Thang
Optimistic Wasteland Inc.
Fraternity.
#23 - 2013-01-22 07:07:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Juan Thang
Go write an industrialist manual, this is not something that needs fixing as its creates extra potential for trades to make isk.

We will make fuel blocks if we want to make fuel blocks so we don't have to go to highsec.

Please go cry else ware.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#24 - 2013-01-22 11:12:56 UTC
Sigras wrote:
Malcorian Vandsteidt wrote:
I used Amarr fuel blocks for my calcs. So it may not apply to all Ice types, then again the market for isotopes has fallen lately, so it may be slightly profitable currently, but wont be anymore as soon as Isotope prices go back up. I mean "13k Isk" is easy to fudge with just a few price increases in the market.

By "lately" do you mean since september like 1/3 of a year ago lately?

Amarr fuel blocks are actually BETTER off because helium isotopes are 60 isk cheaper than oxygen isotopes saving you 25,200 isk per run and the amarr fuel blocks are 100 isk cheaper costing you 4,000 isk per run netting you 21,200 more isk per run

Also you realize that the numbers i posted are with an unresearched BPC right? so level 40 ME will save you 7,000 isk just in helium isotopes . . . but you knew that right?

Also have you looked at the graphs for the fuel block prices? they rose when the isotope prices rose and fell when the isotope prices fell. there were a few weeks where you could make awesome margin but still the invisible hand of the market works!

you realize that "13k isk" is 2.6% margin right? thats better than the margin currently on the dominix . . . also this is if youre buying all your materials instantly, using buy orders makes you way more isk . . . but you knew that right?

So youre telling me that youre a station trader who doesnt regularly check Jita prices, and doesnt count his margins? please tell me where youre station trading; id love to help you make a "profit" . . . Roll
You avoided this post Mc'Fly.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Malcorian Vandsteidt
Alpha Trades
Solyaris Chtonium
#25 - 2013-01-22 14:58:49 UTC
Mag's wrote:
Sigras wrote:
Malcorian Vandsteidt wrote:
I used Amarr fuel blocks for my calcs. So it may not apply to all Ice types, then again the market for isotopes has fallen lately, so it may be slightly profitable currently, but wont be anymore as soon as Isotope prices go back up. I mean "13k Isk" is easy to fudge with just a few price increases in the market.

By "lately" do you mean since september like 1/3 of a year ago lately?

Amarr fuel blocks are actually BETTER off because helium isotopes are 60 isk cheaper than oxygen isotopes saving you 25,200 isk per run and the amarr fuel blocks are 100 isk cheaper costing you 4,000 isk per run netting you 21,200 more isk per run

Also you realize that the numbers i posted are with an unresearched BPC right? so level 40 ME will save you 7,000 isk just in helium isotopes . . . but you knew that right?

Also have you looked at the graphs for the fuel block prices? they rose when the isotope prices rose and fell when the isotope prices fell. there were a few weeks where you could make awesome margin but still the invisible hand of the market works!

you realize that "13k isk" is 2.6% margin right? thats better than the margin currently on the dominix . . . also this is if youre buying all your materials instantly, using buy orders makes you way more isk . . . but you knew that right?

So youre telling me that youre a station trader who doesnt regularly check Jita prices, and doesnt count his margins? please tell me where youre station trading; id love to help you make a "profit" . . . Roll
You avoided this post Mc'Fly.


I ahve alts in every major trade area in eve, So yes I check prices. and prices fluxuate. No I didn't do the calcs fro every single fuel block from every single region.

1. I was using the fuel blocks as an example of a reason which could be used in order to suggest the changes I desired to see in game, whether the reason for it is valid currently is Irrelevant, as it was valid when Ice products were 1500 a unit (isotopes) which thy could easily go back up to at any time.

2. This is a Suggestion forums, I can post whatever Ideas I desire, and it really doesn't matter if they are needed or not, Sometimes CCP just implements changes tot he game to Change **** and keep it interesting. Well, these changes would change the game for sure in a lot of way, Not for the worse, adn not for the better, Just make it "different" and shift peoples aspect of origination, Hell maybe even encourage a few highsecers to go into wormholes or 0.0.
Hakan MacTrew
Konrakas Forged
Solyaris Chtonium
#26 - 2013-01-22 15:31:41 UTC
Malcorian Vandsteidt wrote:
Actually it'll make a lot of peoples lives easier in both 0.0, Wh,a nd highsec... Not sure what the problem is.

So, do you suggest hat every moon should generate every type of moon goo too? How about Highsec getting high end ABC's and Mercoxit? Sod it, why not put all the T3 gas and sleepers all over K-space too. That way it wont matter wher you are you can do everything...

Thats where your train of thought is leading. It's a regional resource, its there to trade. Everywhere has PI, (with variable levels of yield by sec status,) WH's have T3 as well as various minerals, Null has everything apart from T3 as well as gas for boosters. Highsec really doen't need anything else with its excess of isotopes and low end minerals, (except maybe small amounts of moon goo in 0.7 and down if Ring Mining takes off.)
This generates trade and market diversity.

If you can't handle the logistics of living where you are, then don't live there.

Friends
bongsmoke
Visine Red
420 Chronicles of EvE
#27 - 2013-01-22 15:40:03 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Came in expecting to read something interesting, saw the op left without reading.


Yeah, you should read next time.
Malcorian Vandsteidt
Alpha Trades
Solyaris Chtonium
#28 - 2013-01-23 21:11:20 UTC
Hakan MacTrew wrote:
Malcorian Vandsteidt wrote:
Actually it'll make a lot of peoples lives easier in both 0.0, Wh,a nd highsec... Not sure what the problem is.

So, do you suggest hat every moon should generate every type of moon goo too? How about Highsec getting high end ABC's and Mercoxit? Sod it, why not put all the T3 gas and sleepers all over K-space too. That way it wont matter wher you are you can do everything...

Thats where your train of thought is leading. It's a regional resource, its there to trade. Everywhere has PI, (with variable levels of yield by sec status,) WH's have T3 as well as various minerals, Null has everything apart from T3 as well as gas for boosters. Highsec really doen't need anything else with its excess of isotopes and low end minerals, (except maybe small amounts of moon goo in 0.7 and down if Ring Mining takes off.)
This generates trade and market diversity.

If you can't handle the logistics of living where you are, then don't live there.


Your over exaggeration a bit. I am not suggesting that they change the ICE in 0.0. , or add any of the other **** your suggestiong, Be realistic instead of Irrational, I mean really.....

* I am suggesting they make fuel blocks require the special Ice materials only found in 0.0, instead of racial isotopes.

OR

* They make the fuel blocks require some general Ice material "Instead" of the racial Isotopes (one found in every type of ice).

And yes, I'd like to see one or 2 Ice roids in the WH grav belts on occasion. I mean really why not? Technically and RP wise there is no reason for Ice not to exist in WH's. In fact it is anomaly which defies the game logic itself that it doesn't since wormholes are in fact 0.0 space.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#29 - 2013-01-23 21:41:25 UTC

Op, this is what i've gathered form this thread:

You think fuel blocks are stupid because:
A.) Producing fuel blocks is NOT profitable... that the "raw materials" to build them are worth more than the fuel blocks.
-- You were blatantly proven wrong here...

B.) That the isotope requirements make producing them in WH's or Nullsec inappropriate/nonviable.
-- Moving 40 fuel blocks requires 200 m3 of space...
-- moving 150 Heavy Water, 150 Liquid Ozone, & 400 Isotopes requires 60+60+60 = 180 m3.... a 10% reduction in volume. In nullsec the HW and LO can be produced locally. Additionally, you do know that Isotopes are the fuel used in jump mechanics? Essentially, nullsec already imports/uses huge amounts of isotopes for jump logistics, so your "OMG nullsec has to import non-regional ice" is a factor all nullsec deals with regardless of POS fueling needs.

In short... none of your arguments hold water... and you should amend your first post to not come across as "someone who sells fuel blocks for less than their components are worth".









RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#30 - 2013-01-24 03:13:11 UTC
Malcorian Vandsteidt wrote:
I didn't say he was always a station trader. I used to fly with him a lot.



By "used to" you mean "earlier this month?"

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Derath Ellecon
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#31 - 2013-01-24 03:32:11 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

Op, this is what i've gathered form this thread:

You think fuel blocks are stupid because:
A.) Producing fuel blocks is NOT profitable... that the "raw materials" to build them are worth more than the fuel blocks.
-- You were blatantly proven wrong here...

B.) That the isotope requirements make producing them in WH's or Nullsec inappropriate/nonviable.
-- Moving 40 fuel blocks requires 200 m3 of space...
-- moving 150 Heavy Water, 150 Liquid Ozone, & 400 Isotopes requires 60+60+60 = 180 m3.... a 10% reduction in volume. In nullsec the HW and LO can be produced locally. Additionally, you do know that Isotopes are the fuel used in jump mechanics? Essentially, nullsec already imports/uses huge amounts of isotopes for jump logistics, so your "OMG nullsec has to import non-regional ice" is a factor all nullsec deals with regardless of POS fueling needs.

In short... none of your arguments hold water... and you should amend your first post to not come across as "someone who sells fuel blocks for less than their components are worth".




+1

OP check your math. Feel free to post it here as others have to ensure you didn't forget to carry the 1 or something
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#32 - 2013-01-24 05:57:45 UTC
Malcorian Vandsteidt wrote:
I ahve alts in every major trade area in eve, So yes I check prices. and prices fluxuate. No I didn't do the calcs fro every single fuel block from every single region.

1. I was using the fuel blocks as an example of a reason which could be used in order to suggest the changes I desired to see in game, whether the reason for it is valid currently is Irrelevant, as it was valid when Ice products were 1500 a unit (isotopes) which thy could easily go back up to at any time.

2. This is a Suggestion forums, I can post whatever Ideas I desire, and it really doesn't matter if they are needed or not, Sometimes CCP just implements changes tot he game to Change **** and keep it interesting. Well, these changes would change the game for sure in a lot of way, Not for the worse, adn not for the better, Just make it "different" and shift peoples aspect of origination, Hell maybe even encourage a few highsecers to go into wormholes or 0.0.


Buying materials from sell orders and selling the blocks to buy orders, you can make 8k ISK per 2.5 minute run of Amarr fuel blocks(making 40 blocks). So nobody's selling them at 12.6k/unit because "minerals I mine are free," they're selling them at 12.6k/unit because "the minerals I mined are worth 12.4k/unit and a 200 ISK profit on 4 seconds of manufacturing time represents a very respectable 200k ISK/hr/manufacturing slot."

Imagining that Fuel block prices will remain stationary if Isotope prices treble is ludicrous.

So, as to your suggestions (in order):

There's a cost to using a tower whose topes you can't source locally. If you want locally sourced topes, use a tower that corresponds to your local Ice supply.

CCP has said on numerous occasions that WHs will never have Ice, because they want them tied to K-space. You're lucky you have PI, bucko.

They're already profitable.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Drake Doe
88Th Tax Haven
#33 - 2013-01-24 06:02:53 UTC
So you're complaining because the player run market has dictated that the materials are worth more than the fuel blocks themselves. Do you not see what I'm hinting?

"The homogenization of EVE began when Gallente and Caldari started sharing a weapon system."---Vermaak Doe-- "Ohh squabbles ohh I love my dust trolls like watching an episode of Maury with less " Is he my Dad " but more of " My Neighbor took a dump on my lawn " good episode! pops more corn" ---Evernub--
Malcorian Vandsteidt
Alpha Trades
Solyaris Chtonium
#34 - 2013-01-24 07:26:36 UTC
Drake Doe wrote:
So you're complaining because the player run market has dictated that the materials are worth more than the fuel blocks themselves. Do you not see what I'm hinting?


Actually I am not "complaining" at all, the fuel block thing was just an example of a reason I would like to see these changes in game.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#35 - 2013-01-24 09:29:51 UTC
Malcorian Vandsteidt wrote:
Drake Doe wrote:
So you're complaining because the player run market has dictated that the materials are worth more than the fuel blocks themselves. Do you not see what I'm hinting?


Actually I am not "complaining" at all, the fuel block thing was just an example of a reason I would like to see these changes in game.
Seeing as nothing you said is correct, the change won't happen.

You seemed to avoid Gizznitt's post, so I'll quote it for you.
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

Op, this is what i've gathered form this thread:

You think fuel blocks are stupid because:
A.) Producing fuel blocks is NOT profitable... that the "raw materials" to build them are worth more than the fuel blocks.
-- You were blatantly proven wrong here...

B.) That the isotope requirements make producing them in WH's or Nullsec inappropriate/nonviable.
-- Moving 40 fuel blocks requires 200 m3 of space...
-- moving 150 Heavy Water, 150 Liquid Ozone, & 400 Isotopes requires 60+60+60 = 180 m3.... a 10% reduction in volume. In nullsec the HW and LO can be produced locally. Additionally, you do know that Isotopes are the fuel used in jump mechanics? Essentially, nullsec already imports/uses huge amounts of isotopes for jump logistics, so your "OMG nullsec has to import non-regional ice" is a factor all nullsec deals with regardless of POS fueling needs.

In short... none of your arguments hold water... and you should amend your first post to not come across as "someone who sells fuel blocks for less than their components are worth".

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Derath Ellecon
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#36 - 2013-01-24 11:45:03 UTC
Seeing as the OP is happily ignoring all the posts calling him out on his bad math (showing that fuel blocks are indeed profitable) I call troll.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#37 - 2013-01-24 11:49:43 UTC
Derath Ellecon wrote:
Seeing as the OP is happily ignoring all the posts calling him out on his bad math (showing that fuel blocks are indeed profitable) I call troll.
I would normally agree, but check his posting history and other threads regarding his ideas. Blink

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Derath Ellecon
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#38 - 2013-01-24 13:22:51 UTC
Mag's wrote:
Derath Ellecon wrote:
Seeing as the OP is happily ignoring all the posts calling him out on his bad math (showing that fuel blocks are indeed profitable) I call troll.
I would normally agree, but check his posting history and other threads regarding his ideas. Blink


Oh you mean his constant half baked ideas that he posts here? And then defends just enough to keep the argument going, while generally ignoring all of the valid counter arguments people reply with?

Yea Troll. In this case a professiona Features and Ideas discussion forum troll.
Malzuk
Reich Enterprise
#39 - 2013-01-31 21:20:10 UTC
Malcorian Vandsteidt wrote:
Alright So the idea to make Fuel blocks as the main POS fuel was excellent, saves time and money.

However:

Fuel blocks are pointless to make due to the following:

1. The materials on the list if sold, Could buy you triple the amount of Fuel Blocks a Print makes. (40 per run).

2. You might say but if your in a Wormhole or 0.0 you can build them and be self sufficient!... Wrong. here's why:

* In 0.0 You must own SOV to do the PI, However if you Own sov.... Your not going to really need the fuel blocks because you'll be using a station generally. Yes I realizes POS's are still used for strategic reasons.

* If you do use POS, well lets hope it's the type of POS your space provides the right Isotope for, generally (Mini Deathstar) Are a favorite and unless your in mini space... You can forget making the fuel blocks for it. ( Unless your tower is a tower which runs on your spaces Isotope, which is Uncommon to say the least).

*"Well just haul the isotopes and materials from highsec!" Why? You'd pay more to build your fuel blocks then to simply buy them... that's a tad stupid on your part.....

3. In wormholes many prefer to build their own blocks for sustainability, However I should point out that this is pointless also because:

* Wormholes have no ice.

* You still have to freight in the ice to build them, and you'd be better off (not to mention save ISK) simply buying the fuel blocks themselves.

4. Players build them in highsec by doing PI, and Mining Ice. However this is pointless and not even remotely profitable as like I said in the beginning, The materials are worth FAR more then then Blocks themselves.

5. But if they are not profitable, why do people make them?:

* Simple. Most industrialists do not take into account the intrinsic values of the materials they use, in their perception because they mined them, made them from PI, or whatever, They are Free and thus hold no value. So they view 12k a pop for fuel blocks a profit, when in fact, it's a Huge loss to what they could have made if they had simply sold the materials.

* You would need to sell fuel blocks for around 25k - 75k a pop to make a decent profit. (Depending on the market)

In other words... People are.... (some other word more eloquent then "Stupid").



So.. the point of this post, was to ask CCP to fix this. Either by:

* Making Fuel blocks universally fit any tower (Thus allowing their use in 0.0 to be sustainable despite the choice in towers),

* By placing Ice in wormholes (To allow wormholes to be sustainable and actually make building them in there useful),

* By decreasing the minerals needed to make them (or something) (In order to actually make selling them "profitable").

* Or hey.. how about all of the above?



your calculator is broken. fuel blocks are profitable, otherwise my wallet would be negative. make a new spreadsheet dude.
Zan Shiro
Doomheim
#40 - 2013-01-31 22:07:53 UTC
if every item on the market was a sure fire 100% win profit maker....indy would be even more broken than with some dud items like these fuel blocks as op sees it.


Indy has its risks like everything else. Don't like fuel block returns don't make them. Yes it has lower profit margins. No crap...their primary users are pos owners. Who have a vested interest in researching their blocks (and they have the pos to) they use bpo's to get them perfect and then after building up the first batch of blocks can fuel their pos' while they seed the markets with buy orders at a price they want to pay to run cheaper there after. Don't hate the fule blocks...hate the idiots going for quick isk and filling these buy orders lol.


The wh rant....this was done to have wh's have a tie into empire beyond jsut selling t3 (components or as a whole ship) in empire. Getting the fuel not really an issue for them....they have to drop off the damn sleeper poop (or whats made from it) in empire anyway.

0.0 almost the same thing.....9 million units of ferrogel doesn't sell too well deep in the heart of goon space in a station locked so only they can use it. Someone has to take the moon goo (or products of it to jita). Its not even bears being scared of pvp here ....they can't get into the goon stations even if they wanted to make the flight out there lol. Dropping off the ferreogel, pick up your blocks or components.

And 0.0 not needing pos's.....man puff puff give the high grade you have been buying. Want to know how blob corps get their legions of pos slaves to maintain them? Most of the crews I ran with had one simple policy. If you wanted a private pos you take on a few corp pos' to maintain as well. usually not short of volunteers for this duty. As even with a 100 man corp research/build slots in a station can fill up quick to have a wait qeue not unlike an empire station.
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