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Industrial wardec counter mechanic
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Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#21 - 2013-01-21 18:50:27 UTC
Grenduk wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Jamyl Khanid wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:

my wardec immune npc corp laughs at you.


This 1000 times.

They are here for a reason. The same people that cry foul about you keeping an NPC alt would have no hesitation about Awox-ing your corp or disbanding your entire alliance with a meta alt. Don't let others dictate strategy unless you like being a follower.


not even an npc alt, it's a main character. as the goon so eloquently points out, there's nothing in high sec worth fighting or owning so why not sit in a wardec immune npc corp?


Personally, a few reasons. 1) T2 invention. 2) 0.75 production in a POS 3) JC access to 0.0 PI 4) social aspects

You've got to explain what any of that has to do with any of my ideas.

What does the JC acces to 0,0 PI have to do with high sec corporations and the ability to run a station?

Social aspects? How is a high sec corporation being able to own a station going to have a negative impact on social aspects?
Null sec THRIVES and participates in levels of social interaction that is not possible in high sec.

.75 preoduction?
You don't need a PoS in high sec to produce the things that dominate the marekt. You only need to be in an NPC corp, working out of an NPC station.

Invention can be done in a PoS, NPC station, Null stations. I'm not suggesting anything that would have any impact on that.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#22 - 2013-01-21 18:52:43 UTC
In one war we crippled our enemy by destroying their supply of t3 cruisers. So what you want is already in game.
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#23 - 2013-01-21 19:04:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Natsett Amuinn
baltec1 wrote:
In one war we crippled our enemy by destroying their supply of t3 cruisers. So what you want is already in game.

That's not what I want though.

I want you to do that and effect the MARKET in that region. Same way hulkagdon effected the market, and how ice interdictions can effect the market. Edit: these are larger impaters than I want high sec corps to have as well. I want to make it clear, I want regional impact, not overal market impact like can be gained through hulkagedon type events.

We can't sustain those though.

Nor does it make the NPC corp industrialist worse than the player run one.

I'm competing with a group of people that literally run high sec industry, and I"m not allowed to impact them? That's rediculous.

If T2 industry, and the refining of high concentration ores was run through a player run station, what happens when you take that station offline?

I don't think it's neccesary to "destroy" the station, but other high sec corps should have the means, in war, to take it offline so it's not usable, and then flip it.

That one system can have significant impact on the market in that region.


High sec industrial corps should be allowed to influence the market through warfare. This core to industrial activity. As an industrialist my goal is to sell as much of my stuff as possible, AT THE BEST PRICE I CAN GET. But I have very little recourse when it comes to enforceing my will upon the market.

The abundance of goods that comes out of any given region by an entire group that can not be impacted, makes it impossible for a high sec corporation to strategically enforce their will in that market.

You can't stop the building.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#24 - 2013-01-21 19:05:47 UTC
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
You don't need a PoS in high sec to produce the things that dominate the marekt. You only need to be in an NPC corp, working out of an NPC station.

NPCs are the best, after all.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Kalanaja
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#25 - 2013-01-21 19:26:03 UTC
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
In one war we crippled our enemy by destroying their supply of t3 cruisers. So what you want is already in game.

That's not what I want though.

I want you to do that and effect the MARKET in that region. Same way hulkagdon effected the market, and how ice interdictions can effect the market. Edit: these are larger impaters than I want high sec corps to have as well. I want to make it clear, I want regional impact, not overal market impact like can be gained through hulkagedon type events.

We can't sustain those though.

Nor does it make the NPC corp industrialist worse than the player run one.

I'm competing with a group of people that literally run high sec industry, and I"m not allowed to impact them? That's rediculous.

If T2 industry, and the refining of high concentration ores was run through a player run station, what happens when you take that station offline?

I don't think it's neccesary to "destroy" the station, but other high sec corps should have the means, in war, to take it offline so it's not usable, and then flip it.

That one system can have significant impact on the market in that region.


High sec industrial corps should be allowed to influence the market through warfare. This core to industrial activity. As an industrialist my goal is to sell as much of my stuff as possible, AT THE BEST PRICE I CAN GET. But I have very little recourse when it comes to enforceing my will upon the market.

The abundance of goods that comes out of any given region by an entire group that can not be impacted, makes it impossible for a high sec corporation to strategically enforce their will in that market.

You can't stop the building.




I like how you think. Lots of great ideas. Agreed, buffs to player corps are a major need along with the making wardecs matter in high sec. And pretty much for the OP. If an industrial corp cannot handle being wardecced, or cannot or will not hire guards. Then realistically speaking, you're failing. Even the lowliest industrial worker can clobber someone with a big freaking wrench. If you get decced by a griefer corp. Grab some cheap frigates, fit some weapons and other modules. Then go swarm them. I notice lots of those griefer corps like to fly more expensive ships since they know they probably won't lose them. So blow some of their ships up and cost them some money and grief.
Grenduk
Grey Manufacturing
#26 - 2013-01-21 19:35:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Grenduk
Kalanaja wrote:


I like how you think. Lots of great ideas. Agreed, buffs to player corps are a major need along with the making wardecs matter in high sec. And pretty much for the OP. If an industrial corp cannot handle being wardecced, or cannot or will not hire guards. Then realistically speaking, you're failing. Even the lowliest industrial worker can clobber someone with a big freaking wrench. If you get decced by a griefer corp. Grab some cheap frigates, fit some weapons and other modules. Then go swarm them. I notice lots of those griefer corps like to fly more expensive ships since they know they probably won't lose them. So blow some of their ships up and cost them some money and grief.


I dont get these "fight back" folks, have you ever been decced? Wardeccers dont fight to lose, they station hump. Bringing frigates against massively buffer tanked battleships resulting in easy drone kills or docking games while they lulz in local.

I'm looking for an alternative to space combat. They deprive me of my game, meaning I either pvp or dont play. I want a mechanic to return the favor.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#27 - 2013-01-21 19:43:06 UTC
Grenduk wrote:
Kalanaja wrote:


I like how you think. Lots of great ideas. Agreed, buffs to player corps are a major need along with the making wardecs matter in high sec. And pretty much for the OP. If an industrial corp cannot handle being wardecced, or cannot or will not hire guards. Then realistically speaking, you're failing. Even the lowliest industrial worker can clobber someone with a big freaking wrench. If you get decced by a griefer corp. Grab some cheap frigates, fit some weapons and other modules. Then go swarm them. I notice lots of those griefer corps like to fly more expensive ships since they know they probably won't lose them. So blow some of their ships up and cost them some money and grief.


I dont get these "fight back" folks, have you ever been decced? Wardeccers dont fight to lose, they station hump. Bringing frigates against massively buffer tanked battleships resulting in easy drone kills or docking games while they lulz in local.

I'm looking for an alternative to space combat. They deprive me of my game, meaning I either pvp or dont play. I want a mechanic to return the favor.

Perhaps an NPC corp would help?

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#28 - 2013-01-21 20:01:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Natsett Amuinn
Grenduk wrote:
Kalanaja wrote:


I like how you think. Lots of great ideas. Agreed, buffs to player corps are a major need along with the making wardecs matter in high sec. And pretty much for the OP. If an industrial corp cannot handle being wardecced, or cannot or will not hire guards. Then realistically speaking, you're failing. Even the lowliest industrial worker can clobber someone with a big freaking wrench. If you get decced by a griefer corp. Grab some cheap frigates, fit some weapons and other modules. Then go swarm them. I notice lots of those griefer corps like to fly more expensive ships since they know they probably won't lose them. So blow some of their ships up and cost them some money and grief.


I dont get these "fight back" folks, have you ever been decced? Wardeccers dont fight to lose, they station hump. Bringing frigates against massively buffer tanked battleships resulting in easy drone kills or docking games while they lulz in local.

"I dec, no fight"

They won't undock, that's a problem.
Why? They don't need to.

Why don't they need to? Well, if they're an industrialist, you don't ******* need to!
Industrialist does not just mean MINER. I do not mine a thing in EVE, yet I have two industrialists.

So we have a problem:
1) No undock, no win.
You need to be able to win. They have nothing for you to win though, becaue they don't undock to get blown up. Most of us consider, that in EVE when you win it's because you TOOK something. Most of us will not settle on eHonor.

I don't need to undock to do business though. You can sit there for 6 months, 23/7, I'm giggle as I make ISK. We don't all need to undock. If I don't undock you can't win.

You need something to take from them.
How about control of the station they're in? If they don't undock, you take the station, and then raise the costs in that station. Now you're taking their isk everytime they do business, in your station.

2) Why did you deck?
Are they producing goods for an opponent? All those NPC alts can move those goods, you'll be hard pressed to stop them all by ganking. Not to mention, ganking means you're losing isk.

Just wanted legal targets? That's perfectly fine, but they don't undock so you don't get any. What did that war cost by the way?

Again, if you could take control of the station they're working out of, you would be able to impact their business. NPC corp guys don't really matter, if it's produced in your station, you get paid for it.

And if you're intended legal targets won't undock, **** 'em, they can pay for the right to stay docked in your station.

I think people would be suprised how much more people would undock if that station they're working out of could sudently fall into the hands of someone that doesn't like them. There are things they could let you do with a station that make it very undesirable for them to just let you have it, but not limit anyones ability to do anything.


Wardecs only impact miners and mission runners, and if you're a mission runner you can already fly a ******* pve ship; you have no excuse for fitting a crappy ship to press buttons against another player. Dear god, you might get a crapfit frigate destroyed; oh the horror.

Miners and mission runners that don't like PvP are not going to be happy with any wardec system anyone could ever think up, because the only one that works for them is the one that doesn't exist.
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#29 - 2013-01-21 20:21:18 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Grenduk wrote:
Kalanaja wrote:


I like how you think. Lots of great ideas. Agreed, buffs to player corps are a major need along with the making wardecs matter in high sec. And pretty much for the OP. If an industrial corp cannot handle being wardecced, or cannot or will not hire guards. Then realistically speaking, you're failing. Even the lowliest industrial worker can clobber someone with a big freaking wrench. If you get decced by a griefer corp. Grab some cheap frigates, fit some weapons and other modules. Then go swarm them. I notice lots of those griefer corps like to fly more expensive ships since they know they probably won't lose them. So blow some of their ships up and cost them some money and grief.


I dont get these "fight back" folks, have you ever been decced? Wardeccers dont fight to lose, they station hump. Bringing frigates against massively buffer tanked battleships resulting in easy drone kills or docking games while they lulz in local.

I'm looking for an alternative to space combat. They deprive me of my game, meaning I either pvp or dont play. I want a mechanic to return the favor.

Perhaps an NPC corp would help?


CONCORD will save us!

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Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#30 - 2013-01-21 20:28:25 UTC
The right of every capsuleer to earn isk, unimpeded, shall not be infringed.
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#31 - 2013-01-21 20:38:56 UTC
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
The right of every capsuleer to earn isk, unimpeded, shall not be infringed.


it's in the highsec constiution we mustnt let the highsec republicans besmirch the highsec constitution

This post was loving crafted by a member of the Official GoonWaffe recruitment team. Improve the forums, support this idea: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=345133
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#32 - 2013-01-21 20:59:13 UTC
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
In one war we crippled our enemy by destroying their supply of t3 cruisers. So what you want is already in game.

That's not what I want though.

I want you to do that and effect the MARKET in that region. Same way hulkagdon effected the market, and how ice interdictions can effect the market. Edit: these are larger impaters than I want high sec corps to have as well. I want to make it clear, I want regional impact, not overal market impact like can be gained through hulkagedon type events.



You can do this, Its just a question of money and intel.
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#33 - 2013-01-21 21:04:41 UTC
ban npc corps
Dave Stark
#34 - 2013-01-21 21:07:58 UTC
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
ban npc corps

and where do all the people in npc corps end up?
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#35 - 2013-01-21 21:14:26 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
ban npc corps

and where do all the people in npc corps end up?

Exactly, we NEED NPC corps. In recognition that this is the last haven of many mackinaws and freighters stuffed with too much stuff, they need to be buffed.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Psychotic Monk
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#36 - 2013-01-21 21:22:52 UTC
Natsett Amuinn wrote:

High sec industrial corps should be allowed to influence the market through warfare. This core to industrial activity. As an industrialist my goal is to sell as much of my stuff as possible, AT THE BEST PRICE I CAN GET. But I have very little recourse when it comes to enforceing my will upon the market.


You are allowed to effect the market. You have the same tools as everyone else with which to do so. This isn't a class game. Picking the industrialist class doesn't mean you can't use the methods of the pvper class. The very events you point to as things you'd like to emulate the effects of give you the map to your goal.

Belligerent Undesirables Selling Griefer Immunity
Galaxy Pig
New Order Logistics
CODE.
#37 - 2013-01-21 21:24:24 UTC
Yet another thread by a carebear who wants the edge in this game, but doesn't wanna have to do "stuff".

Highsec is owned by players now. Systems 0.5-1.0 are New Order Territory. All miners and other residents of Highsec must obey The Code. Mining without a permit is dangerous and harmful to the EVE community. See www.MinerBumping.com
Captain Tardbar
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#38 - 2013-01-21 22:09:00 UTC
Grenduk wrote:
Wardecs are perfect as is.
PVP corps can deny industrial corps access to their preferred play style because eve is a harsh and cold universe.

Problem is, it's not harsh and cold for the PVP corp. They get what they want without any consequences. We need a counter mechanic for industrial focused players that provides the same emergent gameplay fun!

I introduce the Marketdec. Corp A can bribe Concord to restrict all market interaction for Corp B. Now pvpers must mine and build their own stuff, thus forcing the industrial playstyle on them.

Same result for the other half of the game.


This idea would break the game and ruin EvE.

Also, I support it.

Looking to talk on VOIP with other EVE players? Are you new and need help with EVE (welfare) or looking for advice? Looking for adversarial debate with angry people?

Captain Tardbar's Voice Discord Server
Lovely Dumplings
My Little Pony Appreciation Corporation
#39 - 2013-01-21 22:22:18 UTC
I think I saw this idea earlier re: wardecs, and it made sense. Add an extra step to the initial wardec: Attacker pays 50mil, defender is given the option to make it mutual, or pay their own ISK to raise the ISK fee of the attacker.

Example:
Corp A plunks down 50 mil to attack Corp B.
Corp B, being industrialists with deep pockets, throws down 3 billion to cancel the dec
Corp A is given the option to pay 3 bil more to fire the war off.

Have it done every week the war stays non-mutual. This lets an industrial corp leverage it's strength against a PVP corp, IF said industrialists are prepared. CONCORD can keep all the fees either way, as a new ISK sink.

www.minerbumping.com
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#40 - 2013-01-21 22:53:15 UTC
baltec1 wrote:


You can do this, Its just a question of money and intel.

What good is the bounty on a high sec corp, who doesn't undock, and has nothing to lose?

There's no control over the T2 market. The corporation that's responcible for the bulk of the market can't be wardeced. Ganking isn't the solution. Is anyone denying that the bulk of T2 products on the market isn't made by people in NPC corporations?

I face the equivilent of a NPC corp guy being able to come to null, and if I shoot them CONCORD pwns me and they can shoot me all day. I'm not exagerating this.

There is NO sufficient means of poking the biggest instigators in EVE. The only thing ganking enough people to have an impact will do, is lead to changes that make EVE safer. Gank enough frieghters and CCP will do something with them. Gank enough miners and CCP will...

When I fly around high sec, I see miners from NPC corps. I don't see many miners from player run corps. And when they are in a corp, I check that corp out and it's usually an incredibly small number of people, usually whatever sitting in the belt mining, with a name having only a numerical difference.


I already got the intel part down. I know exactly who it is that impacts me. There isn't enough ISK for anyone to fight back.
I have the tools to fight back against other player run corporations, but they aren't the ones impacting me. The corporations that impact me, CCP says I can't put a bounty on them, and if I want to poke them I have to gank them.

The supply line aspect of it all doesn't really bother me. Ganking frieghters to disrupt the enemy is about the only thing that's working. NPC corp guys moving goods is fine with me. I think it's actually good for the game that the NPC corps be used to avoid the wardec for the purpose of moving things around; crazy, I know.

It doesn't matter where you play, if you're an industrialist and you're in a player run corporation, ther'se four corporations that will have massive impact on what you do, and you can't do **** about it. We can't disrupt NPC corp production enough to reach a point where player run corps have control over the goods on the market; it's never happend.



Give that power to the high sec corporation and they will grow, they will fight to hold onto it power. Those that can't, will ally with those that can. Those that simply wouldn't lke to take part in a more dynamic high sec would just have to pay whatever the player run corporations decide they should.

Wardecs represent a significant level of risk and effort. High sec corporations that stay together are not being rewarded for assuming any of that risk and effort. They have nothing to win or lose.

I believe that high sec corporations should be fighting over the power to control T2 production.
Not the ability to do it, but to tax people for doing it.

That would be an incredibly meaningful thing for people to declare war on each other over in high sec.

War is pretty meaningles when there's nothing being faught over.
And the people we should be going to war with, can't be decced because they have no reason to join a player run corporation.

Let the player run corporations tax those people.
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