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Dread blapping

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rofflesausage
State War Academy
Caldari State
#101 - 2013-01-21 10:49:03 UTC
Senn Denroth wrote:

This complaint is a side effect of how wormhole space has evolved. It will continue to evolve to counter these things. Just because team 1 like their fleet comp and wants to be able to stick with said fleet comp, doesn't mean that team 2 has to get nerfed based on what team 1 says. Team 1 have to come up with a counter strategy to beat team 2.


This is too much sense for the Eve forums.

WHs tactics evolve very fast compared to the rest of Eve. Given that KILL and others are still kicking other people out of THEIR wormholes, handling mass issues, this "dread issue", ammo and all associated deployment concerns, this just sounds like a case of people who can't / won't adapt crying.

If KILL can do it, others can.
Jack Miton
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#102 - 2013-01-21 11:30:30 UTC
Ok, first off. alt posting is bad mmk? If you have an opinion, grow some balls and post it on your main.
So many missed points in this thread it makes my head hurt...

Bottom line is that the moros IS way out of line with the other dreads and that all turret dreads hit sub BSs way too well for what they are. You can argue it however you like but it's a fact that anyone who has ever shot at subs in a dread knows.
Is this actually an issue though? personally i think dreads vs. BSs is fine as is, maybe slightly over powered, but dreads vs. cruisers is currently fairly significantly over powered.

For all of you claiming it's easy to counter tracking dreads, go try it one day.
Also, no one cares about ganking a site running fleet which my grandmother could do in her nightgown, even considering she'd need to take a nap half way through.

That said, before any changes are made regarding how dreads hit subcaps, all the dreads need to be balanced to each other, which they currently are not.

For the record, comparing the moros to the archon is silly since each carrier actually does something different whereas the role of all dreads is exactly the same: do as much DPS as you can while surviving 5 minutes.

There is no Bob.

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rofflesausage
State War Academy
Caldari State
#103 - 2013-01-21 11:35:16 UTC
Jack Miton wrote:


Bottom line is that the moros IS way out of line with the other dreads and that all turret dreads hit sub BSs way too well for what they are. You can argue it however you like but it's a fact that anyone who has ever shot at subs in a dread knows.


This is not a wormhole issue.
Jack Miton
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#104 - 2013-01-21 12:12:06 UTC
rofflesausage wrote:
Jack Miton wrote:


Bottom line is that the moros IS way out of line with the other dreads and that all turret dreads hit sub BSs way too well for what they are. You can argue it however you like but it's a fact that anyone who has ever shot at subs in a dread knows.


This is not a wormhole issue.


did i say it was?

There is no Bob.

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Hathrul
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#105 - 2013-01-21 12:57:54 UTC
why do i get the idea people are talking about entirely different things

the point is that the moros has best tracking, best damage and the tank might be a bit less then a rev, but not by much. this makes it better then any of the other dreads by a big margin making all 3 others close to redundant. on top of that, with its awesome tracking sub-bs can just get volley'd nowadays and there isnt much you can do against that. corbexx has linked fights exhale took against big fleets with dreads. we were loaded on ecm, and no, it isnt a counter.

however, first people start talking about ganking in sites. what does that have to do with a fight? its a gank. you fly in, kill ****, go home. thats it

and now someone mentions an eviction done by KILL. what does an eviction have to do with a moros being able to blab subcaps?? have you ever been in wormholespace and had a fleet fight?
Elle Lau
Lazerhawks
L A Z E R H A W K S
#106 - 2013-01-21 13:26:27 UTC
Ok ok guys, let's keep this constructive!

I compared all the sized lazorz and hybrids and all the hybrids have the better tracking over the lazorz. Dafug are we going to do about this? Buff the cap on the Rev and change the 10 percent cap bonus to a 5 percent damage bonus?

Also, when searching google about this issue I found this.

Lorentzian wormholes known as Schwarzschild wormholes or Einstein–Rosen bridges are connections between areas of space that can be modeled as vacuum solutions to the Einstein field equations, and which are now understood to be intrinsic parts of the maximally extended version of the Schwarzschild metric describing an eternal black hole with no charge and no rotation. Here, "maximally extended" refers to the idea that the spacetime should not have any "edges": for any possible trajectory of a free-falling particle (following a geodesic) in the spacetime, it should be possible to continue this path arbitrarily far into the particle's future or past, unless the trajectory hits a gravitational singularity like the one at the center of the black hole's interior. In order to satisfy this requirement, it turns out that in addition to the black hole interior region which particles enter when they fall through the event horizon from the outside, there must be a separate white hole interior region which allows us to extrapolate the trajectories of particles which an outside observer sees rising up away from the event horizon. And just as there are two separate interior regions of the maximally extended spacetime, there are also two separate exterior regions, sometimes called two different "universes", with the second universe allowing us to extrapolate some possible particle trajectories in the two interior regions. This means that the interior black hole region can contain a mix of particles that fell in from either universe (and thus an observer who fell in from one universe might be able to see light that fell in from the other one), and likewise particles from the interior white hole region can escape into either universe. All four regions can be seen in a spacetime diagram which uses Kruskal–Szekeres coordinates.

And these, which is even more interesting...

A railgun requires a pulsed, direct current power supply. For potential military applications, railguns are usually of interest because they can achieve much greater muzzle velocities than guns powered by conventional chemical propellants. Increased muzzle velocities can convey the benefits of increased firing ranges while, in terms of target effects, increased terminal velocities can allow the use of kinetic energy rounds as replacements for explosive shells.

Thus typical military railgun designs aim for muzzle velocities in the range of 2000 - 3500 m/s with muzzle energies of 5 - 50 MJ. For single loop railguns, these mission requirements require launch currents of a few million amperes, so a typical railgun power supply might be designed to deliver a launch current of 5 MA for a few milliseconds. As the magnetic field strengths required for such launches will typically be approximately 10 T, most contemporary railgun designs are effectively "air-cored", i.e. they do not use ferromagnetic materials such as iron to enhance the magnetic flux.

AMIRIGHT??!?!
Terrorfrodo
Interbus Universal
#107 - 2013-01-21 13:32:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Terrorfrodo
Two shield-tanked Curses can neut as much as one Bhaalgorn at 37 km range with smaller sig and higher transversal.

One Arazu can dampen two and a half buffertanked webbing Lokis with a full rack of webs and painters down to 12 km targeting range even without ewar fleet boost. With mindlinked Eos booster, two damps reduce that Loki to 7.4 km targeting range. If the Loki has counter-modules fitted, it has reduced number of webbers and painters and/or a lot less tank and still won't be able to target at more than 15-20 km range.

(edit: the subsystem that increases targeting range is in direct competition with the subsystem for web range, so it's impossible to make a Loki resistant to dampening except by directly reducing its ability to web and paint by fitting sensor boosters in the mids.)

Did anyone even try to use anything else than the same T3 blob every time?

.
corbexx
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#108 - 2013-01-21 13:45:55 UTC
Terrorfrodo wrote:
Two shield-tanked Curses can neut as much as one Bhaalgorn at 37 km range with smaller sig and higher transversal.

One Arazu can dampen two and a half buffertanked webbing Lokis with a full rack of webs and painters down to 12 km targeting range even without ewar fleet boost. With mindlinked Eos booster, two damps reduce that Loki to 7.4 km targeting range. If the Loki has counter-modules fitted, it has reduced number of webbers and painters and/or a lot less tank and still won't be able to target at more than 15-20 km range.

(edit: the subsystem that increases targeting range is in direct competition with the subsystem for web range, so it's impossible to make a Loki resistant to dampening except by directly reducing its ability to web and paint by fitting sensor boosters in the mids.)

Did anyone even try to use anything else than the same T3 blob every time?


shield curses while great on principle will probably die horribly to a support legions work better but your still looking at needing twice the number of legions (or curses) to do what a bhaal would do, so 6 to 10 probably.

The damps again sound in theory but with most fights being on the wh range wont be a issue, and again arazu's are very squishy

In a site they might work a bit better where stuff might be spread out more but then you they are at risk from sleepers

Corbexx for CSM X - Wormholes still deserve better
Terrorfrodo
Interbus Universal
#109 - 2013-01-21 14:07:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Terrorfrodo
Sure it's no iwin button but when you have several Arazus who instantly pull range from the dreads and their Loki escorts they remove the dreads' dps before more than one or two can be webbed and killed, if even that. Three boosted damps will reduce a Loki to 4.5 km targeting range. And you need less Arazus than the enemy has Lokis, even though Arazus are a lot cheaper.

Without the dread dps, the other side would then have to have enough subcaps to negate your logistics and kill the Arazus, which can easily have 40k EHP and good resists. If the enemy has that many dps subcaps in addition to his dreads and Lokis, he is probably superior anyway so the dread blappiness is not the issue anymore.

With a few Arazus you probably wouldn't even need to rely on Curses for neuting because unwebbed afterburning Bhaals can easily escape the dreads' tracking.

Admittedly I'm being an armchair general here but I don't see why that shouldn't work against a typical dread-loki-fleet, especially one that has not taken precautions against this kind of attack.

.
Prince Mammon
24th Imperial Crusade
Amarr Empire
#110 - 2013-01-21 15:19:31 UTC
This is still going around?

Really?

Plenty of counters have been listed in this thread, just because it doesn't result in you instantly killing the dread doesn't mean it's not effective.

Bottom line is things are fine. Don't go nerfing something that doesn't need it, just because a very few people want to whine about it.

CCP Gargant: "total blanket no-tolerance policy was enacted on accusing the ISD of misbehaving" Who else said there people couldn't be accused of misbehaving? Nothing to see here, move along.
Casirio
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#111 - 2013-01-21 15:41:37 UTC
Terrorfrodo wrote:
Two shield-tanked Curses can neut as much as one Bhaalgorn at 37 km range with smaller sig and higher transversal.

One Arazu can dampen two and a half buffertanked webbing Lokis with a full rack of webs and painters down to 12 km targeting range even without ewar fleet boost. With mindlinked Eos booster, two damps reduce that Loki to 7.4 km targeting range. If the Loki has counter-modules fitted, it has reduced number of webbers and painters and/or a lot less tank and still won't be able to target at more than 15-20 km range.

(edit: the subsystem that increases targeting range is in direct competition with the subsystem for web range, so it's impossible to make a Loki resistant to dampening except by directly reducing its ability to web and paint by fitting sensor boosters in the mids.)

Did anyone even try to use anything else than the same T3 blob every time?


ya bro you go bring your shield curses up against a t3/dread fleet
/faceplam
Random Woman
Very Professional Corporation
#112 - 2013-01-21 15:52:40 UTC
Prince Mammon wrote:
This is still going around?

Really?

Plenty of counters have been listed in this thread, just because it doesn't result in you instantly killing the dread doesn't mean it's not effective.

You are right here, however the problem is that the dreads tend to kill the counters rather fast. So unless the other guys FC is just running off with the sleeperloot and not calling targets, you will end up with your counters dying faster than the dreads, and every jamgu that dies makes it hurt even more on your site.

And so you can just bring so much blob that you outblob the enemy support fleet so hard that they cant help their dreads long enough, to kill of your blob fast enough.
Two step
Aperture Harmonics
#113 - 2013-01-21 16:05:38 UTC
Omen Nihilo wrote:
Your analogy isn't really applicable. The people complaining in this thread aren't complaining just because the tactic is used against us. We use/abuse dread blapping as often as we get the chance tbh. It's just that we've realized how much of a fight hindrance it's become: fights are harder to get—and even when you do get them they're more like ganks for whoever has the dreads. This thread is about making w-space pvp less stale and more frequent.

TL;DR: the complainers aren't the victims. We just want more fights. Blink


This times 1000. Dread blapping is plenty fun for the blapper, but not so much for the blappee. If I see large w-space alliance X on a hole with 8 dreads and 10 lokis, which 18 ships should I bring to counter that? Which 25 even?

Rek Seven wrote:
Dreadnoughts are not a wormhole exclusive ship...


This is true, and the feedback I heard from 0.0 CSM dudes was that they were a little bit concerned about this as well. It isn't as big of an issue because the ranges are longer in 0.0, but according to Elise, kills from XL guns have gone *up* since the Titan XL gun nerf thing.

Winthorp wrote:
Paikis wrote:
I fully expect that once Fozzy gets to the capital ships, there is going to be much wailing and gnashing of teeth as both the Archon and Moros get bought back down to where they should be. I also see large buffs to the Nag/Phoenix, with the phoenix probably changing to a hybrid ship, or getting VERY large bonuses to sig res/explosion velocity. The Nid/Thanny will most likely be buffed, as well as a small buff to fitting for the Chimera.


See and when they are prepared to look at them all across the board i think that's ok, but to just knee jerk nerf a dread because a CSM rep gets to directly ask CCP for it without any consultation of the "REST" of the community that uses it is where i hold grave concerns.


I certainly didn't ask *anyone* to just nerf the Moros. I told Fozzie that it was a concern of many people in w-space, including me (and also including lots of the people in this thread), and asked him to look at the issue. If you have "grave concerns", feel free to vote for someone else next time (and you better make sure to ask them their feelings on dread blapping).

CSM 7 Secretary CSM 6 Alternate Delegate @two_step_eve on Twitter My Blog
Domania
Must Be EOL Cuz Wormholes Dont Jiggle Like This
#114 - 2013-01-21 17:26:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Domania
Casirio wrote:
Terrorfrodo wrote:
Two shield-tanked Curses can neut as much as one Bhaalgorn at 37 km range with smaller sig and higher transversal.

One Arazu can dampen two and a half buffertanked webbing Lokis with a full rack of webs and painters down to 12 km targeting range even without ewar fleet boost. With mindlinked Eos booster, two damps reduce that Loki to 7.4 km targeting range. If the Loki has counter-modules fitted, it has reduced number of webbers and painters and/or a lot less tank and still won't be able to target at more than 15-20 km range.

(edit: the subsystem that increases targeting range is in direct competition with the subsystem for web range, so it's impossible to make a Loki resistant to dampening except by directly reducing its ability to web and paint by fitting sensor boosters in the mids.)

Did anyone even try to use anything else than the same T3 blob every time?


ya bro you go bring your shield curses up against a t3/dread fleet
/faceplam


[ 2012.11.05 00:22:00 ] (combat) Mageddo (Limited Mega Ion Siege Blaster I) hits you for 23574 damage
[ 2012.11.05 00:22:01 ] (notify) Ship out of control.

gg

Also, doesn't anyone rooting against a moros nerf realize that ecm is all chance based, webs and tp's aren't? No? Didn't think so.
Mister Tuggles
Dickhead Corner
#115 - 2013-01-21 17:43:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Mister Tuggles
Don't fix what's not broken.


A nerf to the Moros may be needed, but people would still be complaining when they come up against a fleet that has a few dreads + web/tp support.

As people have already stated webs, and TPs are made to allow guns to effectively hit targets. When you turn a cruiser's sig into the size of a BS and facerape the speed you better believe a Dread should be able to blap it. Bring ECM, or as others have pointed out, land under the dread's range, kill the loki's, kill the dreads.
AdoudelA
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#116 - 2013-01-21 20:58:51 UTC
It seems the main problem isn't really the moros dps but the fact that it's so easy to stop someone with one loki and then just pop it.(Or it isn't as easy but there is no counter to that what is effective)

So why don't make/change a module for e.g. Overdrive Injector to a module that counters webs for a percentage (like Cap batteries do it with neut/nos) and with that module and with the stacking penalty it would be much easier to survive for a cruiser while it's being webbed.

My point with that would be that there is a direct counter for ECM, dampener(for a degree), neut but not for paint/web currently.
Jack Miton
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#117 - 2013-01-21 21:10:27 UTC
I think it should at least be considered to put a similar kind of flat sig size penalty on dreads that titans have.
i'd probably make their DPS scale down to anything under, say, 500 sig rather than the 2000 sig that titans have.
that way they lose nothing against other caps and you CAN still blap with them, you just need to bring TPs, not just webs.
that way you keep your home system advantage if you tailor your fleet to support your dreads, but they won't be as effective in a general T3 fleet (which realistically tends not to have any TPs) as they are now.

for reference:
BS needs 1 TP to push it over 500 sig
T3 maxes out around 450 sig with 5 TPs
Guardian maxes out around 190 sig with 5 TPs

numbers are all with RF painters and no fleet boosts/drugs.

i think this change would go a long way to making everyone happy with dread effectiveness vs. sub caps as it leaves them almost as effective as they are now but forces the blappers to actually set their fleet up accordingly.

PS: moros needs to still be brought in line with rest of dreads (or vice versa) but that's a separate issue. PVE would be unaffected by this change.

There is no Bob.

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Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#118 - 2013-01-21 23:04:56 UTC
Messoroz
AQUILA INC
Verge of Collapse
#119 - 2013-01-22 00:25:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Messoroz
Two step wrote:
My issue with dread blapping is that there isn't a counter to it other than "bring more stuff". I am fine with dreads killing caps and battleships, but if I show up in small sig cruisers, dreads shouldn't be dominant.

FYI, this isn't something that I just came up with out of thin air, this has been a frequent complaint I have heard from many different corps and alliances. What makes EVE PVP great is that you should always be able to counter a specific fleet setup without just bringing 2x the numbers. That isn't the case with dreads + webs/painters.


Yes, DREADS should always be dominant IF their support fleet is able to DOMINANT YOU. The use of a support fleet is exactly why dreads were already nerfed to require even more and same for other caps. If you are getting webbed, bring tracking disruptors or neuts or even jams. PROBLEM ******* SOLVED.


I believe we won an entire alliance tournament due to a single sentinel.


However, if we are nerfing capitals. I feel we should nerf carriers so they can only run a single remote rep without instacapping out. Triage games are unfair! It means the guys with the most bhaals wins.
Jack Miton
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#120 - 2013-01-22 00:28:22 UTC
Messoroz wrote:
If you are getting webbed, bring tracking disruptors or neuts or even jams. PROBLEM ******* SOLVED.

confirming TDs stop webs and are really useful against sieged dreads...

There is no Bob.

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