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[Retribution 1.1] Black Ops Little Things - now with Covert Cyno update

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Quindaster
Infernal Laboratory
Infernal Octopus
#101 - 2013-01-20 18:37:25 UTC
Nice to see, CCP did something after 3 years and maybe now Black Ops can jump over regional gates...and they don't need to jump in gate like it was before.

First time I see CCP start to do something useful, especially if this changes so small and they could do it few years ago.

And CCP still forget to add T3 ships by mistake, like wrote it some GM to covert cyno line if they have fitted covert subsystem.

And what I want to see, is remote repair bonus on range on Sin and capacitor, because it support BO, and now his bonus on agility is useless.

And will be good to see some changes and add some CPU on some BO, because without deadspace modules impossible to fit it and meke some useful fit, and it make BO much more expensive, and usually 1 BO cost more than whole enemy fleet together, and for this many time we doesn't have reason to use them even if you win and lose 1 bo - you lost fight by isk.

And will be good to see some T2 resists on it, like on other T2 ships, because now T1 ship easily can kill 2-3 BO even if it's T2 ships.
Evanga
DoctorOzz
Domain Research and Mining Inst.
#102 - 2013-01-20 20:26:50 UTC
Even without these changes blops are very good :)

See you soon wildcard
Net hunter
Avalon Project
Shadow Rock Alliance
#103 - 2013-01-20 22:10:34 UTC
I approve.Big smile
Quindaster
Infernal Laboratory
Infernal Octopus
#104 - 2013-01-21 07:37:40 UTC
Reppyk wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
None of this will be a surprise to you avid minute-readers, but for everyone else here's what we have planned:

  • Increase the base jump range of all Black Ops ships to 3.5 light years (equal to that of Titans)
  • Reduce the mass multipler used for Covert Jump Portal fuel costs from 0.00000018 to 0.000000135 (Reduces the fuel cost of covert bridges by 25%)
  • Increase the fuel bay on all Black Ops to 1250m3 (25% increase)


These changes will not be in the current Sisi build but should be in the build after that so you can start playing with them. We're aiming to have the changes out in Retribution 1.1 on February 12th.

Let us know what you think of the proposed changes in this thread.

:Edit: Also apparently Two Step is getting close to me in likes so you should all like this post. Takk. :Edit:
I think that...

This is a very bad idea, and for multiple reasons.

You're buffing some ships because "nobody uses them".
What's the point ? What's the goal ?

1) The hotdrop mechanisms need to be nerfed, not to be accessible to any peasant (hem). At the moment, it is limited to some BlOps pilots (which are few, and have strong limitations like the range problem you're trying to resolve) and the titan pilots, which dedicated training (2 years), isks (75B) and money (founding the account) to allow them to hotdrop.
I don't want to see the PVP in EVE restricted to hotdrops. I want to see fleets, I want to see roams. Ambushed and bombed while moving. Delayed by bubbles.
And what is hotdropping atm ? The planning ? Someone owning a bridging ship that will never be at risk, a few scouts with cynos (most of the time, only one) and 10 to 250 guys next to the bridging ship, fapping over furry **** or waiting for a jabber ping. Only the scout is doing some effort. Nobody else.
The action itself ? "Drop on them, we're 5x their number, otherwise we wouldnt try it, anyway they won't fight back". Fascinating.

2) The short range of the BlOp bridge was a good thing. If you wanted to hotdropped someone, you had to move in their vicinity. You're almost doubling that range. From a tactical tool, it's becoming a strategic weapon. You can cover a whole region. So far for the "delicate behind-the-enemy-lines ships"... No more dedicated for a particular target. A lot harder to be spotted since the titan bridge range is roughly ~11 jumps, where a current BlOp must hide withing ~5 jumps of its target.

3) You're increasing the fuel bay, because bridging more people at once is better, right ? Sorry but it may be time to stop making ships that are scaling linearly. Yes, the so-called "blob". A BlOp can bridge a few recons and bombers ; it's fine. Do you think that bridging 20 recons with a single ship is a good idea ?

4) You're also reducing the fuel consumption. It helps bridging more people (see point 3) and reduces the hotdrop price. It should be the other way ! You have complete intel of the targeted fleet ; you're gonna ambushed them, for a mere million isks in fuel ? Hotdropping is already lacking some :effort: and risk, and you want to make it cheap(er).

5) The range bonus is a nice buff to the viators, cranes and co, basically making them like tiny jump freighters. Because EVE Online needs more easy logistics that don't even use gates and cannot be catch (unless the pilot is making major mistakes). When was the last time that a major 00 alliance had its supply lines significantly disrupted ?




I am disappointed. BlOps need some love, but not on the bridge part. And I would like to play EVE Online : roaming behind the enemy lines, not Cyno Online : fapping while waiting inside a forcefield. Thanks.


I'm sure you absolutely doesn't know anything about Bo and how they work on field.

Do you ever know, BO even cannot jump over nearest gate if this gate is regionalgate, because from one side to other on region gates, range was always over 5 ly and BO cannot jump over this gates.
So, what a tactic in enemz territory you talk about if whole BO fleet was need to jump trough gates like any other ships and every scout saw whole fleet. And be sure always on this regional gates people have scouts, because usually in one side live one group, in other live other. So for this BO was useless, and you can use them only in own few constallations and thats all.

What roam you talk about?!
Roam on 2 billion ships?
if someone will see your 2 billion ship fleet, on your fleet 2 region and few 1000 people will come to bait and kill this fleet.
So you will roam only once, in a year and whole year mine for new ship, and noone will do this roam again.

And yes, you absolutely doesn't know anything about BO, because when you portal not only trash bombers and few recons, but if you portal 1 or 2 T3 ships, on back way you will have zero isotops in fuel bay, and you will need to ask in local from enemy - please sell to us some isotops, because fuel is empty.
So usually BO with portal was only one way jump.

People who doesn't have min 100 kills on BO, do not comment anything about what is good and what is bad for BO.
Powers Sa
#105 - 2013-01-21 07:50:23 UTC
When you get around to the actual ships, please look at the resists, because they suck balls for a tech 2 in comparison to command ships vs BC's and hacs vs cruisers. Sorry for resorting to "they suck balls" but there's just no other way to explain the extreme fragility.


My widow has to sacrifice a lot of i want to use it for a useful role.

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Quindaster
Infernal Laboratory
Infernal Octopus
#106 - 2013-01-21 07:53:55 UTC
What I want to see in BO after this changes on jump range.

1. less fuel usage for portal T3 ships. (because now if you portal 2 T3 - you out of fuel)

2. abbility to use warfare links. (yes, so we can use bonuses on armor, skirmish, shield)

3. abbility to refite from each other

4. remote rep bonuses on range for Sin.

5. T2 resists

6. NO new racial EWAR bonuses! No close range Redeemer with neuts or damps like some idiots wrote.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#107 - 2013-01-21 08:05:13 UTC
Quindaster wrote:
What I want to see in BO after this changes on jump range.

1. less fuel usage for portal T3 ships. (because now if you portal 2 T3 - you out of fuel)

2. abbility to use warfare links. (yes, so we can use bonuses on armor, skirmish, shield)

3. abbility to refite from each other

4. remote rep bonuses on range for Sin.

5. T2 resists

6. NO new racial EWAR bonuses! No close range Redeemer with neuts or damps like some idiots wrote.

Sounds like you want a Thanatos and not a Sin, but you want the Thanatos to be able to bridge also.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Fon Revedhort
Monks of War
#108 - 2013-01-21 08:43:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Fon Revedhort
Reppyk wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
None of this will be a surprise to you avid minute-readers, but for everyone else here's what we have planned:

  • Increase the base jump range of all Black Ops ships to 3.5 light years (equal to that of Titans)
  • Reduce the mass multipler used for Covert Jump Portal fuel costs from 0.00000018 to 0.000000135 (Reduces the fuel cost of covert bridges by 25%)
  • Increase the fuel bay on all Black Ops to 1250m3 (25% increase)


These changes will not be in the current Sisi build but should be in the build after that so you can start playing with them. We're aiming to have the changes out in Retribution 1.1 on February 12th.

Let us know what you think of the proposed changes in this thread.

:Edit: Also apparently Two Step is getting close to me in likes so you should all like this post. Takk. :Edit:
I think that...

This is a very bad idea, and for multiple reasons.

You're buffing some ships because "nobody uses them".
What's the point ? What's the goal ?

1) The hotdrop mechanisms need to be nerfed, not to be accessible to any peasant (hem). At the moment, it is limited to some BlOps pilots (which are few, and have strong limitations like the range problem you're trying to resolve) and the titan pilots, which dedicated training (2 years), isks (75B) and money (founding the account) to allow them to hotdrop.
I don't want to see the PVP in EVE restricted to hotdrops. I want to see fleets, I want to see roams. Ambushed and bombed while moving. Delayed by bubbles.
And what is hotdropping atm ? The planning ? Someone owning a bridging ship that will never be at risk, a few scouts with cynos (most of the time, only one) and 10 to 250 guys next to the bridging ship, fapping over furry **** or waiting for a jabber ping. Only the scout is doing some effort. Nobody else.
The action itself ? "Drop on them, we're 5x their number, otherwise we wouldnt try it, anyway they won't fight back". Fascinating.

2) The short range of the BlOp bridge was a good thing. If you wanted to hotdropped someone, you had to move in their vicinity. You're almost doubling that range. From a tactical tool, it's becoming a strategic weapon. You can cover a whole region. So far for the "delicate behind-the-enemy-lines ships"... No more dedicated for a particular target. A lot harder to be spotted since the titan bridge range is roughly ~11 jumps, where a current BlOp must hide withing ~5 jumps of its target.

3) You're increasing the fuel bay, because bridging more people at once is better, right ? Sorry but it may be time to stop making ships that are scaling linearly. Yes, the so-called "blob". A BlOp can bridge a few recons and bombers ; it's fine. Do you think that bridging 20 recons with a single ship is a good idea ?

4) You're also reducing the fuel consumption. It helps bridging more people (see point 3) and reduces the hotdrop price. It should be the other way ! You have complete intel of the targeted fleet ; you're gonna ambushed them, for a mere million isks in fuel ? Hotdropping is already lacking some :effort: and risk, and you want to make it cheap(er).

5) The range bonus is a nice buff to the viators, cranes and co, basically making them like tiny jump freighters. Because EVE Online needs more easy logistics that don't even use gates and cannot be catch (unless the pilot is making major mistakes). When was the last time that a major 00 alliance had its supply lines significantly disrupted ?

6) Do you really thing that BlOps are under-used because of the range and some fuel problems ? Flash news : you're wrong. You need 2 years of training to pilot one. Their bridging role is done by titans, because instead of using a bomber/recon/cloaky T3 fleet (which has weaknesses), you can use cheaper and more efficient ships like BCs. Will this patch change anything about that ? No. Maybe you should check again the skill requirements to fly one. Maybe you should give them a bonus that makes them something else than a POS module. Example : BlOps have a 30s delay before being listed in the local channel. It would make them excellent for highsec, lowsec and 00 areas. Or some kind of "bubble", allowing people to catch ratting nyxes in a cyno jammed system.

7) Why are you buffing the hotdrop part ? Hey, I can answer that for you : because catching people is becoming harder and harder, thanks to the intel channels, the local and the dscan. You should work on that.




I am disappointed. BlOps need some love, but not on the bridge part. And I would like to play EVE Online : roaming behind the enemy lines, not Cyno Online : fapping while waiting inside a forcefield. Thanks.

Quoting the whole post since reading it was like encountering an oasis in a desert full of rotten corpses.

I disagree with some bits, but at the end of the day it's always good to see healthy scepticism among the gathering of yes-men.

Edit: Mr. Fozzie, care to share the fundamental idea behind B/O and hot-drops? One-way gank or a fight? If latter, then how the hell are you going to promote that?

"Being supporters of free speech and free and open [CSM] elections... we removed Fon Revedhort from eligibility". CCP, April 2013.
Maximus Andendare
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#109 - 2013-01-21 08:51:12 UTC
Heimdallofasgard wrote:

Two lines of black ops??

Hey Fozzie, care to elaborate?


CSM CSM Meetings December 2012 wrote:

Ytterbium and Fozzie stated that their vision for a future BO revamp (after the initial jump range/fuel change) was that it would include two lines – a combat-oriented BO and a bridging/covert oriented one.
Honestly, if they want to add excitement to the BlOps line, then have two varieties of BS, as they've mentioned, but have one EWAR/BRIDGING ship and the other a COMBAT/TANKY BS.

This would give a great opportunity to continue the Amarr EWAR/drones line into a Viziam Abaddon hull with drones and tracking disruption,

The Gallente Hyperion into a Roden Damp/Missile/Blaster platform,

And a Minmatar Core Complexion Maelstrom with TPs and bonus to ROF.

Of course, Caldari would get a Tanky BlOp BS in the form of an Ishukone Rokh with bonuses optimized for blasters.

Also, I'd love to see the costs of these BSs (all eight in the Black Ops line, as it would be) come down so that more pilots could enjoy these ship lines and risk them in engagements.

Enter grid and you're already dead, destined to be reborn and fight another day.

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ChromeStriker
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#110 - 2013-01-21 10:46:04 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
TrouserDeagle wrote:
Helothane wrote:
TrouserDeagle wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
links


Better be accompanying a massive nerf, such as gutted effectiveness and a 40km or so range limit.



I think you misunderstood him. He is saying that they will be restricted to the same class of ships they are at present, without the need of using the 99% reduction trick. If it were otherwise, I would be far more concerned about being able to fit a covert cloak on virtually any ship.



No, I just think it would be bad to touch links without fixing them while you're at it.


One step at a time. Smile


IB4 fitting a double cloak bomber Twisted

No Worries
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#111 - 2013-01-21 11:44:55 UTC
If Black ops ships aren't going to be able to use the covert cloak, i'm on the side of the fence that says all black ops ships should get an EWAR bonus like the widow... It's silly that it isn't like that already.

The wishlist is pretty much complete...
Xindi Kraid
Itsukame-Zainou Hyperspatial Inquiries Ltd.
Arataka Research Consortium
#112 - 2013-01-21 13:25:24 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:

:Edit: Also apparently Two Step is getting close to me in likes so you should all like this post. Takk. :Edit:

Quick everyone. Upvote Two Step.

A bit more range on Blops bridging doesn't sound too bad, but I think that's the least of their problems. I'd be interested to see what you have in mind when it comes time to actually fix them rather than apply another bandaid.
Anthar Thebess
#113 - 2013-01-21 13:40:48 UTC
Why not reduce titan range to current BO range at the same time?
This will be good for eve.

Stop discrimination, help in a fight against terrorists

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GeeShizzle MacCloud
#114 - 2013-01-21 13:47:28 UTC
Brewlar Kuvakei wrote:
They need T2 resists before black ops become usefull. I'd like to see two black ops for each race, one which can use covt jump portal and the other one a dps combat ship.

Both need the ability to fit cov ops cloaks.



hmm i dont think the cov ops cloak is necessary especially with the mjd+cloak trick (so long as the mjd animation doesnt show when u jump 100km indicating your new position)

the stats do need a buff though in my opinion. or at least a few more bonuses.
Juan Andalusian
Shocky Industries Ltd.
Goonswarm Federation
#115 - 2013-01-21 14:05:42 UTC
Quindaster wrote:
I'm sure you absolutely doesn't know anything about Bo and how they work on field.

Do you ever know, BO even cannot jump over nearest gate if this gate is regionalgate, because from one side to other on region gates, range was always over 5 ly and BO cannot jump over this gates.
So, what a tactic in enemz territory you talk about if whole BO fleet was need to jump trough gates like any other ships and every scout saw whole fleet. And be sure always on this regional gates people have scouts, because usually in one side live one group, in other live other. So for this BO was useless, and you can use them only in own few constallations and thats all.

What roam you talk about?!
Roam on 2 billion ships?
if someone will see your 2 billion ship fleet, on your fleet 2 region and few 1000 people will come to bait and kill this fleet.
So you will roam only once, in a year and whole year mine for new ship, and noone will do this roam again.

And yes, you absolutely doesn't know anything about BO, because when you portal not only trash bombers and few recons, but if you portal 1 or 2 T3 ships, on back way you will have zero isotops in fuel bay, and you will need to ask in local from enemy - please sell to us some isotops, because fuel is empty.
So usually BO with portal was only one way jump.

People who doesn't have min 100 kills on BO, do not comment anything about what is good and what is bad for BO.


Bolded the fun or totally random parts.

It is generally good practise to avoid bashing other person's well articulated arguments when you lack the ability to communicate in any language known to the inhabitants of the planet you reside in.
Juan Andalusian
Shocky Industries Ltd.
Goonswarm Federation
#116 - 2013-01-21 14:07:23 UTC
Double post
Reppyk
The Black Shell
#117 - 2013-01-21 16:06:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Reppyk
I removed the quotes because this is a :ccp forum: "There are too many quotes in the post".

I'm sure you absolutely doesn't know anything about Bo and how they work on field.
I dislike hotdrops, I have access to titans and my sin never made it on a killmail (because it's a bridging ship). Sorry for you, but I would have a hard-time to prove it.

Do you ever know, BO even cannot jump over nearest gate if this gate is regionalgate, because from one side to other on region gates, range was always over 5 ly and BO cannot jump over this gates.
So, what a tactic in enemz territory you talk about if whole BO fleet was need to jump trough gates like any other ships and every scout saw whole fleet. And be sure always on this regional gates people have scouts, because usually in one side live one group, in other live other. So for this BO was useless, and you can use them only in own few constallations and thats all.
lol
You missed the part where I said "specific target". A BlOp and a few bombers/recons are perfectly fine to ambush people in a well-known ratting system. Just move next to it. You want to stay outside of the constellation ? Sorry, you have to move closer.

What roam you talk about?!
Roam on 2 billion ships?
if someone will see your 2 billion ship fleet, on your fleet 2 region and few 1000 people will come to bait and kill this fleet.
So you will roam only once, in a year and whole year mine for new ship, and noone will do this roam again.
A BlOp with a T2 fit is only 1b, when a T2 fit hyp/abbadon is ~400m.
I would like you to explain me how a "1000 man fleet" could catch a little roam of BlOps. You really sound very experimented in EVE. Teach me.

And yes, you absolutely doesn't know anything about BO, because when you portal not only trash bombers and few recons, but if you portal 1 or 2 T3 ships, on back way you will have zero isotops in fuel bay, and you will need to ask in local from enemy - please sell to us some isotops, because fuel is empty.
So usually BO with portal was only one way jump.
Actually you should learn how to use BlOps Lol
You can jump another BlOp to return the fleet, even with a crane if you need more fuel.

People who doesn't have min 100 kills on BO, do not comment anything about what is good and what is bad for BO.
This logic is flawless.
"People who doesnt have 100 kills in a titan should not speak about rebalancing supercaps".
I'm not a BlOp expert, but I can understand what is bad for the game.

Quoting the whole post since reading it was like encountering an oasis in a desert full of rotten corpses.
I disagree with some bits, but at the end of the day it's always good to see healthy scepticism among the gathering of yes-men.
Edit: Mr. Fozzie, care to share the fundamental idea behind B/O and hot-drops? One-way gank or a fight? If latter, then how the hell are you going to promote that?
I'm much sad about the "no effort hotdrop" effect than the "gank" side btw, but thanks.
I think this is an excellent example of Malcanis's law, where most of the old players are happy about the buff.
Will this break the game ? No.
Will this make it less challenging ? Definitively yes.
Will this reduce any carebear/roaming activity in New Eden ? I think so.
Will I profit from this buff ? Hell yes. Before that, to "disrupt" an entire 00 region, I had to get a titan and a POS in hostile space. Now I can just cloak a BlOp and some ships next to hit, and wait until someone get in sight of a not-so-afk arazu.
And I don't see the balance in that.

Why not reduce titan range to current BO range at the same time?
This will be good for eve.
I think so, but the tears. Oh the tears.

Bolded the fun or totally random parts.
It is generally good practise to avoid bashing other person's well articulated arguments when you lack the ability to communicate in any language known to the inhabitants of the planet you reside in.
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CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#118 - 2013-01-21 16:22:59 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Fozzie
Hey all. Quick related update now that I'm finished some backend refactoring work that opened up those 'options' I was so cryptic about earlier:

We have also refactored the methods used to limit older modules to certain ships. Most of the ships changed by this will simply have a more clear description (Can fit module X rather than -99% CPU to module X) but there are two gameplay improvements this change allowed us to make:

  • Change the CPU requirements of Covops cloaks to 100 and change the bonus on coverts, recons and blockade runners to "-20% CPU needed for cloaks per level". This means that cloaks will use the same CPU at level 5 (0) but the CPU use at lower levels is less crippling, making the use of these ships at less than level 4-5 more viable.

  • Open up the use of Covert Cynosural Field Generators on any Strategic Cruiser that has the Covert Reconfiguration subsystem fitted, as well as on Blockade Runners. This means that the availability of covert cynos is consistent and simple. If you can jump through the bridge you can light the cyno.

    • [*] As a more neutral side effect that is still worth noting: the Combat and Attack Battlecruisers, as well as the Blockade Runners and Deep Space Transports, will now be in separate groups. This means anyone with custom overviews will need to add the new Attack Battlecruiser group and the new Blockade Runner group to their list of groups that show up on the overview. The default overviews will be adjusted automatically.

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie
Trebor Daehdoow
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#119 - 2013-01-21 16:32:16 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Open up the use of Covert Ops Cynosural Field Generators on any Strategic Cruiser that has the Covert Reconfiguration subsystem fitted, as well as on Blockade Runners. This means that the availability of covert cynos is consistant and simple. If you can jump through the bridge you can light the cyno.

Happy Happy Joy Joy Twisted

Private Citizen • CSM in recovery
GeeShizzle MacCloud
#120 - 2013-01-21 16:34:49 UTC  |  Edited by: GeeShizzle MacCloud
OMG fozzie...


OMG! <3

fozzie can we get the group ID numbers btw for the 2 new groups? (so we can add them as html into our imported overview file).

its better as a cut and paste job into multiple profiles then augmenting an overview profile and exporting then going over it with a fine tooth comb to spot the new group ID's

thankyouplease!