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Just be happy with what you picked dingus

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Jing Xin
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#21 - 2013-01-19 22:57:35 UTC
One successful "Mentas Blaque for President!" campaign and there go your good guys.
Simon Louvaki
Khaldari InnoTektoniks and Analytical Solutions
#22 - 2013-01-19 22:57:52 UTC
CCP Falcon wrote:
Simon Louvaki wrote:


After reading the Empyrian Age I got the distinct feeling that Caldari society was faltering WAAAY before Heth ever came along, and in fact, Heth kind of gave the Caldari people a (very misguided) purpose that sprung their stagnant economy to heights it hasn't seen in years. The very fact that the Federation was even considering removing their own competition from Caldari Markets to stim the tide of State wide depression really goes against this idea that before Heth they were an economic powerhouse. From what I've seen, Heth is the only thing keeping the Caldari State together right now and is the driving factor in a resurgent economic power, and thats coming from someone who ISN'T a fan of Heth.


The Caldari people were fine, but the economy was on a very downward slope, hence the delegation that was sent out to meet with Ishukone in Malkalen.

Heth bolstered the economy a little, there's no doubt about that. However it didn't last, and he's created a lot of dissent among the Caldari people.



You guy know better than anyone really, its CCP's baby and creation. I'm just relaying the image the book (and some of the chronicles even) put forth.

People working for next to nothing, forced into essential labor compounds on site of factory grounds and in the case of some with hardly nothing to live for but another days toil just doesn't sell it to me that the Caldari people as a whole were doing good. I really enjoyed the book, but it goes firmly against the grain your presenting, and more people will have read the book than will have read this post.

and thanks for replying! I know few dev teams that actively take part in the discussion of the consumers and players! thanks alot. o7.

-- "The weak of mind are quick to judge with slightest tempt; Thus fools go forth to spread false word." - The Scriptures, Book of Trials 2:13 - 2:21

--"At the narrow passage, there is no brother and no friend." - Hyasyoda Proverb
Vikarion
Doomheim
#23 - 2013-01-19 23:11:14 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Eterne
Mekhana wrote:
text



*snipped personal attack* - CCP Eterne

Eve was never written to be Star Wars, and that wasn't the vision of the original dev team. Eve was written to be a dark, noir, even dystopian universe, on all sides. Every Empire has a "Methods of Torture" chron, for example. It's fairly clear that you want Eve to be a Star Trek or a Star Wars setting, but the only storyteller who agreed with you has been tossed from CCP. And rightfully so. In the sort of universe Eve is, with powerful and amoral demigods, violent and immortal mercenaries, and very powerful criminal organizations, the idea that one side is good and the other evil does not fit in at all.

And it's also a more mature vision than the one you offer. Real life is not like Star Wars; real life is shades of grey, different moralities, and tough questions. The morality of Star Wars is fun for two hours in the theater, but hardly satisfying as a worldview for anyone above thirteen years old. If Eve wishes to be realistic, to really have a story that is rich enough for more than a couple hours of interaction, then it cannot have a simple "good guys versus bad guys" theme. The most interesting stories are those with a clash between equally valid or defensible views.
Mekhana
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#24 - 2013-01-19 23:20:43 UTC
That post made my day. <3

Vide longe er eros di Luminaire VII, uni canse pra krage e determiniex! Sange por Sange! Descanse bravex eros, mie freires. Mortir por vostre Liberete, farmilie, ide e amis. lons Proviste sen mort! Luminaire liber mas! 
Silivar Karkun
Doomheim
#25 - 2013-01-19 23:29:19 UTC
i'll just said that from my roleplaying side, as a Ni'kunni, i can't realte too much to the Amarr society, since my own race started as slaves, my character got graduated from the Hedion University, so i dont care for the Emperor nor the general Amarr problems.

the deal here is that, we're capsuleers we're our own nation to be honest, we form big alliances formed by members of all the playable empires, so why have to feel guilty of our nation of birth?, we're inmortals, we dont need to be chained to the mistakes of our nations.
Horatius Caul
Kitzless
#26 - 2013-01-19 23:36:26 UTC
Bienator II wrote:

the problem with amarr is that slavery in such an advanced society is so evil that you have to find something very good to be still able to relate to that faction. And right now its very difficult IMO.


I don't think you understand what the purpose of slavery is in the Empire. I'm not going to make excuses for it, because from a modern moral perspective it's vile, and many of the practices revolving slavery in the Empire are horrifying. However, slavery to the Amarr is fundamentally different from slavery in the real world - historically and currently.

The Amarr Empire is culturally monolithic. There is no room for wildly different cultures to co-exist, because that would harm the internal order of the Empire. In the Empire you don't see cultural splits like the one that forced the Caldari to leave the Federation. You may occasionally see conflict driven by the personal desires of feudal lords, or political shifts to better ensure the stability of the realm, but such issues are passing - because in the end everybody has the same core priorities. The Empire has no separatists or rebel factions.

Throughout the Empire's existence, I'm certain that slavery has been one of the most crucial tools to ensure this unified culture. Slavery is not a method of subjugation or industry - it is a method of integration. To us as modern humans enjoying life in nationstates with respect for multiculturalism, this seems foreign and aggressive, but ask a Ni-Kunni if he thinks slavery was bad for his people.

For people like the Ealur and the Ni-Kunni, the arrival of the Amarr meant that they were uplifted. But instead of treating them like equals and giving them technology, risking a costly war and countless unnecessary deaths, the Amarr took on their races as apprentices to learn from serving their masters - keeping these new members of the Empire low on the ladder until everyone could understand the structure of it all, then giving them opportunities to work their way up.

Ideologically, slavery is a first step on the road to knowing God. Politically, it is a tool to safely integrate new people into the realm without destabilizing it.

Now, enslaving the Minmatar was a mistake. The Empire had never enslaved a people who were technologically advanced and broadly educated. It's easy to scrub away a culture when it's a stone-age or feudal civilization where most people can't read or write, or know the least thing about the world. The Minmatar however were a global space-age civilization, probably comparable to where we are today, and there were so many of them. The whole Minmatar civilization was basically an out of context problem for the Amarr. They kept struggling, so the Amarr kept pushing them down. The most cruel of their methods, like vitoc, probably came during this era, and the rebellion would have not only tarnished the pride of every slave-owning holder but also made them terribly afraid of what might happen and push even harder, continuing a spiral of hate and cruelty.

I don't think Amarrian slavery is inherently evil, but its practices have become debased and abhorrent in many cases. Therein lies a problem, because people will have a gut reaction against these bad practices and condemn everything related to slavery in the Empire, because they cannot separate the two things. And I think the same goes for a lot of things in the EVE factions.

Amarrad - Amarr language project
Lei Gao
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#27 - 2013-01-20 00:12:10 UTC
I'm sure that not all, or even most, Gallente share the perspective of the OP, but this thread just confirms that if I were to create a character that engaged in faction warfare, she would be Caldari.
AstraPardus
Earthside Mixlabs
#28 - 2013-01-20 00:54:33 UTC
It is my personal opinion, ladies and gentlemen, that a character's flaws are what make them most interesting (and fun to play) and the EVE universe gives one quite a lot to work with in this regard. As CCP Falcon illustrated to us, there are a great range of greys. Also, there are many ways to get creative about how to build your character and still stay within canon. This does, however, usually requires some serious homework...and willingness to sacrifice some of your 'cool character ideas' for the sake of canon.
Every time I post is Pardy time! :3
Sepherim
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#29 - 2013-01-20 02:26:01 UTC
Horatius Caul wrote:
Lots of stuff


Probably, one of the best and most complete explanations of slavery in the Empire, why it works, and why it doesn't. Great job!

Sepherim Catillah Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris Liuteneant Ex-Imperial Navy Imperator Commander
Saul Elsyn
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#30 - 2013-01-20 19:45:28 UTC
Yeah, the Caldari State was suffering economically before Heth came to power. Bringing it around when you're a totalitarian dictator gearing up for war is actually mind numbingly easy task. In a sluggish economy people need jobs, the easiest way for a militant government to create jobs is to start a military build up.

Of course, once you have that military force you kind of need to justify it... hence war and all the trials that war brings.
Mekhana
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#31 - 2013-01-21 12:49:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Mekhana
CCP Falcon wrote:
Irrefutable post.


I never claimed the Federation were saints However the way that the Factions are portrayed, that's the impression it gives unless you dwelve very deeply in the lore.

I'm not from a western country and Gallente behavior and self righteousness are outright insulting to me in real life. In fact I made this character as a mockery of people from certain countries that shall remain unnamed. If the Federation existed in real life, they'd be outright villanous to me.

So it's not like I can admire most of Gallente qualities with exception of freedom and speech and democracy, because I know deep down everything is an excuse for imperialism.

Vide longe er eros di Luminaire VII, uni canse pra krage e determiniex! Sange por Sange! Descanse bravex eros, mie freires. Mortir por vostre Liberete, farmilie, ide e amis. lons Proviste sen mort! Luminaire liber mas! 
CCP Eterne
C C P
C C P Alliance
#32 - 2013-01-21 14:19:31 UTC
I have deleted some personal attacks from this thread.

EVE Online/DUST 514 Community Representative ※ EVE Illuminati ※ Fiction Adept

@CCP_Eterne ※ @EVE_LiveEvents
Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations
#33 - 2013-01-21 14:27:16 UTC
Bienator II wrote:
the art of good story telling is if you manage to create a bad guy which ends up having such clear and well thought out motives that he could be almost a good guy. If you don't do that you basically create a cartoon where the evil is just evil for the evils sake.

the problem with amarr is that slavery in such an advanced society is so evil that you have to find something very good to be still able to relate to that faction. And right now its very difficult IMO.

just my 2 c


This guys post is the best post.

Speaking as a guy who plays a member of one of the most blatantly villainous factions in EVE, I can tell you that a large part of our RP effort is dedicated towards doing anything other than becoming moustache twirling cartoon villains. We always have, dare I say it, altruistic reasons for doing the things we do, at least from our point of view.

No good villain ever believes they are the bad guy. They may believe that you are a misguided idiot led by idealism, and you just dont understand why the things they do are necessary. They may believe that they are doing bad things, but the good villains always view that as a grim thing. They may also not have the same sort of moral code as you, but they will always follow their own moral code.

People who are just plain evil for the sake of evil aren't interesting, frankly, from a storytelling point of view.
Thgil Goldcore
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#34 - 2013-01-21 19:13:08 UTC
Horatius Caul wrote:

what RP winning looks like


Congratulations sir... You have won eve online RP.
Telegram Sam
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#35 - 2013-01-21 22:19:57 UTC
This is one of the most interesting threads I've seen in a long time. A lot of good points made by different people.

One interesting thing about the four factions is they seem to share (or be divided by) two sets of aspects. One set of aspects is Traditional vs. Modern. Amarr and Minmatar cultures are on the traditional end and Gallente and Caldari are on the more modern end. (By modern, I don't mean the level of the faction's technology. I mean the culture's outlook on such things as individuality, social mobility, and the role of family and extended family).

The other aspect is Egalitarian/Democratic vs. Stratified/Authoritarian. Gallente and Minmatar cultures would be more at the Egalitarian/Democratic end, Amarr and Caldari more at the other.

A rough chart I just did looks like this. If you look at it according to shared traits, Amarr (Traditional, Stratified) has the least in common with Gallente (Modern, Egalitarian). Similarly, Caldari (Modern, Stratified) shares the least with Minmatar (Traditional, Egalitarian). But the directly opposed cultures are not the prime enemies of each other. It is the Traditionals (Amarr and Minmatar) that are at war with each other and the Moderns (Gallente and Caldari) that are at war with each another.

Also, each faction culturally has as much in common with its prime enemy as it does with its ally. (Ex: Gallente has Modern in common with Caldari, but not with its ally Minmatar). This might explain why both of the alliances seem to be composed of strange bedfellows. Amarr theocratic, aristocratic, land- and slave-owning thinking is alien to Caldari ultra-capitalist corporate technocratic-meritocratric thinking, and vice versa. The same for Gallente modern democratic consumerist thinking vs. Minmatar tribe and warrior culture thinking. Culturally, the alliance partners have some large differences in outlook, and culturally they don't make natural allies. The allies share political and military considerations, but their cultural differences prevent them from becoming especially friendly.

Not to read too much into this little observation. Any time you draw a chart, you're probably oversimplify things. I just think it's interesting the four factions were laid out with shared similarities and shared differences. But they weren't laid out with the most-different faction as their prime enemy. The moralistic, conservative, authoritarian Amarr are not especially opposed to the hedonistic, loose-society, democratic Gallente. Not on ideological grounds, at least. The factions are opposed to their prime enemies because of issues of history and hegemony. I think this is a nice, rather sophisticated touch.

And now, Capricorn, we will look at a chart of the aspects that define your personality and your horoscope for today.... Blink
Mekhana
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#36 - 2013-01-22 02:28:44 UTC
I assume we all just have to live with the fact that all empires are lawful neutral.

Vide longe er eros di Luminaire VII, uni canse pra krage e determiniex! Sange por Sange! Descanse bravex eros, mie freires. Mortir por vostre Liberete, farmilie, ide e amis. lons Proviste sen mort! Luminaire liber mas! 
Maire Gheren
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#37 - 2013-01-22 05:11:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Maire Gheren
Mekhana wrote:
if you think slavery, blind religious zealotry and fanaticism are bad things, you should not have picked Amarr. It's quite simple there's no way to spin this around. The Amarr society is fundamentally evil, they look evil too. If you got a problem with your character being from a society that is built on the back of something as primitive and cruel as slavery and genocide then you should stop complaining and make a new character.

What??
Amarr is religious, and some religious people are zealots. SOME. Not all. Some. Most people in countries which are equally well known for religious extremism on Earth today might take offense to being told that they are zealous extremists.
If someone started saying that everyone from a certain country was a hyper-religious terrorist, you'd think they were being a bigot. Lunatics on shock radio cant even get away with saying THAT. They can't say that, because it isn't true. Most people from those places just get on with the business of living. Why would it be any more reasonable to expect that of an entire nation here??
Amarr has slavery - in an actually rather liberal form as a method of indoctrinating foreign cultures into their society. In this regard, Amarr has higher moral ground than Britain or America had, a couple centuries ago. I would also advise the OP read the history books of whatever country they are from. It will be hard to find any long-standing countries that AREN'T built on genocide and slavery. That doesn't make them exemplars of morality but it doesn't make them UNBRIDLED ANCIENT EEEEVIL.
Quote:

It's like having a race of people that sustains itself by eating newborns. Then you complain to CCP why they make the race seem 'evil'.

Because it's a bit of an eyeroller to have the nation that's built on a variant of the old British Empire's "white man's burden" that actually has been shown to lift a finger to do good with it - pretty morally gray, but you can go either way - be "evil" compared to the country that kidnaps people by outward racial appearance and dumps them in refugee camps as a way of boosting their population? I mean, that seems pretty grey and edgy to me too.
Quote:

The Minmatar Republic is like a rising third world country. Imagine space vikings that were enslaved for centuries suddenly get free to sail the seas of Europe again. You know blood is going to spill and whose blood they are out to get. Can you really blame them? I'd be angry too. Not only they are brash and rebelious, they have major wounded pride issues and seem to always want to compesate for that as well. It is basically a society that would do anything to for e-peen.

Yep. And i'm fine with that. But they are raiding and kidnapping people off the street to haul them off to their country based on things like the color of their skin. They're not the ultimate good guy here, you can go either way with them too.

Gallente is similar. They've got freedom and democracy, sure. They're also known for being hedonists and for having an absolute certainty that their way is the best for everyone else.
Quote:
Revenge is a heroic trait after all.
Revenge is a villainous trait just as often as a heroic one. The guy who goes trying to torture the penitent pensioner isn't really the guy with the white hat.
Quote:

For instance your character can be Amarr but it doesn't mean he has to support slavery. He realizes that its not something right to do but it's a reality he must live him in his society and its a part of his every day life. That's fine and dandy just respect the flavor rules.

Or accept that Amarr frees more slaves than Minmatar does, and that people are generally good and work within how their society works. There are a lot of things that are quite evil that a lot of real countries do. People either accept or defend them without raging that their country is evil to the core.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#38 - 2013-01-22 08:57:42 UTC
Exactly. It's not that the whole Cluster is evil and hopelessly lost.

It's just that anyone who matters seems to be. Including all of us.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Mekhana
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#39 - 2013-01-22 10:08:45 UTC
Maire Gheren wrote:

Amarr is religious, and some religious people are zealots. SOME. Not all. Some. Most people in countries which are equally well known for religious extremism on Earth today might take offense to being told that they are zealous extremists.
If someone started saying that everyone from a certain country was a hyper-religious terrorist, you'd think they were being a bigot. Lunatics on shock radio cant even get away with saying THAT. They can't say that, because it isn't true. Most people from those places just get on with the business of living. Why would it be any more reasonable to expect that of an entire nation here??


Honestly I have no idea how old the Amarr Empire is but I can safely assume its several thousands of years old. When you pick up a history book you can tell that countries that operated similar to a theocracy were all in their infancy and as soon realized what they have done was wrong they completely remove religion from the equation. It's easy to say that the secular state was a big step to politics and governments around. Theocracy is synonym with backwardness in our world. You can look at present day theocratic states that shall remain unnamed as a good example. So we have a several thousands of year old State that still adheres to theocracy That's point number one. Let's move on to point number two.

Maire Gheren wrote:
Amarr has slavery - in an actually rather liberal form as a method of indoctrinating foreign cultures into their society. In this regard, Amarr has higher moral ground than Britain or America had, a couple centuries ago. I would also advise the OP read the history books of whatever country they are from. It will be hard to find any long-standing countries that AREN'T built on genocide and slavery. That doesn't make them exemplars of morality but it doesn't make them UNBRIDLED ANCIENT EEEEVIL.


Sorry but slavery and the world 'liberal' don't mix no matter how hard you try to make it work. Yes I agree certain countries have skeletons like these in their closets and that their atrocities are not on their history books for their children to see. However for a society as old and supposedly as cultered as the Amarr empire should know better. The impact that their religion has on their society is staggering and crippling. It makes them primitive when they should be advanced. That's point number two, on to point three.

Maire Gheren wrote:
Because it's a bit of an eyeroller to have the nation that's built on a variant of the old British Empire's "white man's burden" that actually has been shown to lift a finger to do good with it - pretty morally gray, but you can go either way - be "evil" compared to the country that kidnaps people by outward racial appearance and dumps them in refugee camps as a way of boosting their population? I mean, that seems pretty grey and edgy to me too.


I agree but like I said many posts ago I was not painting white knights here. I roleplay a Gallente character because the Federation is villanious to me albeit in a very modern and realistic way but this is not something I expect a westerner to understand, people of western countries would find the Gallente Federation heroic when skimming through the lore and that is the point of this thread.. If I won a ship for every time someone mistook me for an American or European because of my character I'd be a very happy person as I'd be able to unsub my trader/hauler account.

Reached quote limit. Saving this one for another. On the Minmatar:

I never said they were. The Minmatar are a personification of chaos, I'm suprised they haven't turned to anarchy yet. It would fit them like a glove.

Quote:
Gallente is similar. They've got freedom and democracy, sure. They're also known for being hedonists and for having an absolute certainty that their way is the best for everyone else.


I was dying to get to this part. You see hedonism as much attractive it may sound is a rather primitive philosophy. This is part of what makes the Gallente space greeks and romans. This is a crippling flaw of Gallente society, just like theocracy and slavery is with Amarr society. Non hedonist Gallente would show impressive amount of intellect and common sense just like a progressive Amarr would. That's point number 4.

Quote:
Or accept that Amarr frees more slaves than Minmatar does, and that people are generally good and work within how their society works. There are a lot of things that are quite evil that a lot of real countries do. People either accept or defend them without raging that their country is evil to the core.


Well the same applies here. Here I am making an attempt at defending democracy in an internet forum while democracy is a flawed system (however still better than the alternatives but that's a lesson for another day.) While there are people here trying to defend slavery.

I hope you understand now.

Vide longe er eros di Luminaire VII, uni canse pra krage e determiniex! Sange por Sange! Descanse bravex eros, mie freires. Mortir por vostre Liberete, farmilie, ide e amis. lons Proviste sen mort! Luminaire liber mas! 
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#40 - 2013-01-22 10:17:18 UTC
I don't think anyone in here is defending Slavery. On the other hand some people are defending slavery from an Amarrian context.

From an Amarrian context it is either a useful economic tool or a sacred burden - depending upon the Amarrian in question.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
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