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NPC AI hurting solo pvp.

Author
Aunt Tom
Dark Voodoo Cult
#21 - 2013-01-21 11:00:43 UTC
Asuka Solo wrote:
Solo PvPers should adapt or go play hello-kitty online.
Not a big problem, 'cource

But then we need a new back-story from CCP about NPC. I already have a name for it: 'Love to be killed' Blink
Asuka Solo
I N E X T R E M I S
Tactical Narcotics Team
#22 - 2013-01-21 11:06:19 UTC
Roderick Grey wrote:


But yeah, if the tengu pilot is too stupid to align and too stupid to check local, he should be fair game for another player.


And if your stupid enough to use e-war on a player who is engaging rats, your ass is fair game for NPCs.

Working as intended.

Eve is about Capital ships, WiS, Boobs, PI and Isk!

seth Hendar
I love you miners
#23 - 2013-01-21 11:08:20 UTC  |  Edited by: seth Hendar
while i don't agree with OP, i still think something is not working as intended with the new AI.

the aggro mechanics seems to work odd.

i ran a couple missions last weekend with a few friends (no one warped out in the following sequence).

1- legion warpin and take full agrro and stuf...

2- then a Macha warp in, instan full aggro even without aggressing (why not, after all at that moment it is the biggest DPS on field)

3- a drake warp in => instant full aggro (even if he didn't aggressed at all)

4- a myrmydon warp in, instant full aggro, same as the drake.

done 5 missions with different NPC rat (sanshas, angel, guristas, mercs), same behaviour 100%, no ewar involved at any moment.

from our point of view, it seems that whatever warps in, the last to warpin WILL take full aggro for at least 1 to 2 minutes, regardless of the "threat" it represent to the npcs.

after this delay passed, the ship drawing most of the aggro seems random, and not related to its tank or dps ability.

i'm not sure this is the behaviour intended
Davader
Space Cleaners
The Gorgon Empire
#24 - 2013-01-21 11:32:30 UTC
Agree with TS, CCP have to fix their fail with aggro switching. If a stealth bomber decloacks over ratting BS or BC, the NPC shouldn't all aggro on the bomber, leaving the carebear alone - that's definately wrong logic in aggro mechanics.
Roderick Grey
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#25 - 2013-01-21 11:37:59 UTC
Asuka Solo wrote:
Roderick Grey wrote:


But yeah, if the tengu pilot is too stupid to align and too stupid to check local, he should be fair game for another player.


And if your stupid enough to use e-war on a player who is engaging rats, your ass is fair game for NPCs.

Working as intended.


So if I warp disrupt a player who's aligning to warp out in his tengu I'm an idiot?

Your logic astounds me

“We could learn a lot from crayons; some are sharp, some are pretty, some are dull, while others bright, some have weird names, but they all have learned to live together in the same box.” - Special needs division of Fcon.

Roderick Grey
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#26 - 2013-01-21 12:38:28 UTC
Asuka Solo wrote:
Nothing wrong with NPCs primarying e-war, just like players would.

Solo PvPers should adapt or go play hello-kitty online.


See relating to the logic of a real player in your arguement is a moot case, because no player in his right mind would attack the player that's actually saving him from another regardless of ewar.

“We could learn a lot from crayons; some are sharp, some are pretty, some are dull, while others bright, some have weird names, but they all have learned to live together in the same box.” - Special needs division of Fcon.

Sinigr Shadowsong
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#27 - 2013-01-21 12:48:28 UTC
Asuka Solo wrote:
Nothing wrong with NPCs primarying e-war, just like players would.

Solo PvPers should adapt or go play hello-kitty online.


Oblivious solo-farmers became even more protected in a game that supposed to punish for oscitancy. Lowering conseqences for being air-headed mindless farmer is the thing that moves Eve toward your lovely hello-kitty online.
Bobbechk
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#28 - 2013-01-21 13:13:43 UTC
Asuka Solo wrote:
Nothing wrong with NPCs primarying e-war, just like players would.

Solo PvPers should adapt or go play hello-kitty online.


Sure lemme just fit this cyno and watch you cry about being dropped by a carrier instead
Alx Warlord
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#29 - 2013-01-21 14:13:45 UTC
Roderick Grey wrote:
Asuka Solo wrote:
Nothing wrong with NPCs primarying e-war, just like players would.

Solo PvPers should adapt or go play hello-kitty online.


See relating to the logic of a real player in your arguement is a moot case, because no player in his right mind would attack the player that's actually saving him from another regardless of ewar.


That is not True, go on sisi, and try to use logistics help on someone, everyone will shot you, including the one that you are helping.

Also the rats will shot you because you are trying to steal their kill bounty ( over the player that they hope that they can kill)... Furthermore they think that they are as good as capsulers now.... so...

Change your profession... go mine in Hi-sec.
Asuka Solo
I N E X T R E M I S
Tactical Narcotics Team
#30 - 2013-01-21 15:06:30 UTC
Roderick Grey wrote:
Asuka Solo wrote:
Roderick Grey wrote:


But yeah, if the tengu pilot is too stupid to align and too stupid to check local, he should be fair game for another player.


And if your stupid enough to use e-war on a player who is engaging rats, your ass is fair game for NPCs.

Working as intended.


So if I warp disrupt a player who's aligning to warp out in his tengu I'm an idiot?

Your logic astounds me


No, that would just set you up for a gank.

But if you do it in front of rats who your would be victim was engaging until he spotted you a few seconds prior... then your an idiot and those NPCs have just as much claim to your wreck as you do to your victims...

Eve is about Capital ships, WiS, Boobs, PI and Isk!

Asuka Solo
I N E X T R E M I S
Tactical Narcotics Team
#31 - 2013-01-21 15:10:37 UTC
Sinigr Shadowsong wrote:
Asuka Solo wrote:
Nothing wrong with NPCs primarying e-war, just like players would.

Solo PvPers should adapt or go play hello-kitty online.


Oblivious solo-farmers became even more protected in a game that supposed to punish for oscitancy. Lowering conseqences for being air-headed mindless farmer is the thing that moves Eve toward your lovely hello-kitty online.


So explain to me how tackling a pretty helpless site running fit ship with all tank and no gank, does not make site gankers mindless killmail farmers who deserve to be punished for their oscitancy when not paying attention to the threats that are supposed to be the NPCs around them?



Eve is about Capital ships, WiS, Boobs, PI and Isk!

Asuka Solo
I N E X T R E M I S
Tactical Narcotics Team
#32 - 2013-01-21 15:15:45 UTC
Bobbechk wrote:
Asuka Solo wrote:
Nothing wrong with NPCs primarying e-war, just like players would.

Solo PvPers should adapt or go play hello-kitty online.


Sure lemme just fit this cyno and watch you cry about being dropped by a carrier instead


Lol... I fully endorse hotdropping.

Survival of the richest.

Eve is about Capital ships, WiS, Boobs, PI and Isk!

Roderick Grey
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#33 - 2013-01-21 23:57:52 UTC
Alx Warlord wrote:
Roderick Grey wrote:
Asuka Solo wrote:
Nothing wrong with NPCs primarying e-war, just like players would.

Solo PvPers should adapt or go play hello-kitty online.


See relating to the logic of a real player in your arguement is a moot case, because no player in his right mind would attack the player that's actually saving him from another regardless of ewar.


That is not True, go on sisi, and try to use logistics help on someone, everyone will shot you, including the one that you are helping.

Also the rats will shot you because you are trying to steal their kill bounty ( over the player that they hope that they can kill)... Furthermore they think that they are as good as capsulers now.... so...

Change your profession... go mine in Hi-sec.


I hate to break it to you but the way people act on sisi isn't the same as how they act on the actual server.

Are you trying to be an NPC psychologist or something? Because you're not good at it.

Asuka Solo wrote:

No, that would just set you up for a gank.

But if you do it in front of rats who your would be victim was engaging until he spotted you a few seconds prior... then your an idiot and those NPCs have just as much claim to your wreck as you do to your victims...


Okay so if you want to prevent a player from escaping then you think that it's entirely logical for ALL NPCs to switch to you aswell as your target simply because ewar was used?

Asuka Solo wrote:

So explain to me how tackling a pretty helpless site running fit ship with all tank and no gank, does not make site gankers mindless killmail farmers who deserve to be punished for their oscitancy when not paying attention to the threats that are supposed to be the NPCs around them?


This comment shows me how little you understand nullsec.

1. Ratting ships fit as minimal tank as possible as dps/"gank" = killing rats faster, which in turn = more isk/hour.

2. In order for a ganker to get into the target's anom they'd need to burn through hostile nullsec, where he would be reported in intel so anyone reading would know that they need to dock up, then he would need to enter system and scan for anoms which takes exactly 10 seconds, plenty of time for the ratter to realize that there's a hostile in local and warp out, he then has to actually find which anom his target is in, best case scenario it's in the first one he warps to which still gives his target time to leave whilst he's in warp, and FINALLY he enters grid with his target which would be over 20kms away and will require him to burn to his target, giving them even more time to leave.

The fact that they've had all this time to escape and they haven't shows that they need to get punished, and shouldn't be defended by the very NPCs they make money off.

3. I'm not complaining about pvp ships dying to rats I'm complaining about NPC AI targeting pvp ships over ratting ships, if a player is unaware that NPCs have switched to him AFTER he kills his target then of course he deserves it as he wasn't paying attention, however I'm well aware of the NPCs, which is why I'm here.

“We could learn a lot from crayons; some are sharp, some are pretty, some are dull, while others bright, some have weird names, but they all have learned to live together in the same box.” - Special needs division of Fcon.

Sheala de'Tancarville
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#34 - 2013-01-22 00:54:03 UTC
Roderick Grey wrote:
then he would need to enter system and scan for anoms which takes exactly 10 seconds, plenty of time for the ratter to realize that there's a hostile in local and warp out.


You forgot another "tiny detail" being that you show up on local 10 secs BEFORE you load system. Then you do system scan and that's WHOLE 20 secs before you can even start warping to anomaly.

On top of that, since few month back we have another feature that makes your local list blink while there's someone enters/leave local - all you need to is to keep your cursor on the list.

Bottom line, 0.0 is getting safer and safer and that's exactly NOT how it's supposed to be.

And for all those "adapt or die" idiots - unless CCP change NPCing dramatically, there will be PvE ships and PvP ships (fittings). If you show up on CTA in your ratting ship, you'll get laughed of. The same applies to demands that a PvP fitted ship should able to tank rats because it's NOT DOABLE.

It will be either tanky, but to slow to catch anything (and die to gate camp in a process), to fast enough, but instawtfbbq'd by rats. Been there done that.

So yeah, CCP, way to help roamers. Blobs aren't everything in this game, y'know?
Freyja Asynjur
Folkvangr
#35 - 2013-01-22 01:09:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Freyja Asynjur
Roderick Grey wrote:

I think CCP should change the aggression mechanics so that players attacking them take priority over others. I mean, how is attacking the ship that's killing the ship that's attacking you make any sense?


It's what was actually promised by CCP.

And I all agree with you, the current AI is just stupid beyond imagination. Before, NPCs had no AI and were predictable, now they have AI and are dumb as ****. And still predictable for the the griefi... fine npc-friendly ship: you arrive, draw aggro from *all* NPCs in a second, then you can go to the end of the grid without them ever de-aggro'ing, even if they have no chance of hitting you, and you have never actually fired on them, and they are getting pounded hard by heavy PVE ships 2km away from them. Lol



(also not sure about this, but it seems that missiles never de-aggress their original target even when the npc switches target: you get the yellow lock, but still get the missiles)

-

Roderick Grey
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#36 - 2013-01-22 04:15:28 UTC
Kestrix wrote:
LOL Pvp'er chased off by mission rats...

You do realise that the rats switch to you because your the biggest threat. There is not a first come first served system in combat .


You need to read up on NPC AI.

“We could learn a lot from crayons; some are sharp, some are pretty, some are dull, while others bright, some have weird names, but they all have learned to live together in the same box.” - Special needs division of Fcon.

Juan Thang
Old American Syndicate
Optimistic Wasteland
#37 - 2013-01-22 06:52:50 UTC
seth Hendar wrote:
while i don't agree with OP, i still think something is not working as intended with the new AI.

the aggro mechanics seems to work odd.

i ran a couple missions last weekend with a few friends (no one warped out in the following sequence).

1- legion warpin and take full agrro and stuf...

2- then a Macha warp in, instan full aggro even without aggressing (why not, after all at that moment it is the biggest DPS on field)

3- a drake warp in => instant full aggro (even if he didn't aggressed at all)

4- a myrmydon warp in, instant full aggro, same as the drake.

done 5 missions with different NPC rat (sanshas, angel, guristas, mercs), same behaviour 100%, no ewar involved at any moment.

from our point of view, it seems that whatever warps in, the last to warpin WILL take full aggro for at least 1 to 2 minutes, regardless of the "threat" it represent to the npcs.

after this delay passed, the ship drawing most of the aggro seems random, and not related to its tank or dps ability.

i'm not sure this is the behaviour intended


I belive this from the NPC point of view:

Oh weve been shooting these guys a while and were not breaking theyre tank, OH new target lets test that ones tank.
Asuka Solo
I N E X T R E M I S
Tactical Narcotics Team
#38 - 2013-01-22 07:06:25 UTC
Roderick Grey wrote:

Asuka Solo wrote:

No, that would just set you up for a gank.

But if you do it in front of rats who your would be victim was engaging until he spotted you a few seconds prior... then your an idiot and those NPCs have just as much claim to your wreck as you do to your victims...


Okay so if you want to prevent a player from escaping then you think that it's entirely logical for ALL NPCs to switch to you aswell as your target simply because ewar was used?


You sit cloaked within tackle range and wait for him to clear the site so the rats don't grab you in the process. You grab him before he warps out seeing as you will see him "align" or take out the last rat.

Too much logic for you to compute it seems.

Roderick Grey wrote:
Asuka Solo wrote:

So explain to me how tackling a pretty helpless site running fit ship with all tank and no gank, does not make site gankers mindless killmail farmers who deserve to be punished for their oscitancy when not paying attention to the threats that are supposed to be the NPCs around them?


This comment shows me how little you understand nullsec.

More try-hard stuff in an attempt to make poster sound knowledgeable.


I've been screwing around nullsec since 07, long before you came into the picture. Try again.

Eve is about Capital ships, WiS, Boobs, PI and Isk!

Roderick Grey
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#39 - 2013-01-22 07:58:53 UTC
Asuka Solo wrote:
Roderick Grey wrote:


Okay so if you want to prevent a player from escaping then you think that it's entirely logical for ALL NPCs to switch to you aswell as your target simply because ewar was used?


You sit cloaked within tackle range and wait for him to clear the site so the rats don't grab you in the process. You grab him before he warps out seeing as you will see him "align" or take out the last rat.

Too much logic for you to compute it seems.
Asuka Solo wrote:

More try-hard stuff in an attempt to make poster sound knowledgeable.



Okay I see what's happened here. Perhaps instead of dismissing my breakdown of a roaming ganker as "try-hard stuff" you should give it a read and understand that Cloaky camping and roaming hostile space is not the same thing.

Cloaky camping/black ops involves hours/days/weeks of patience whilst constantly being logged in.

I'm talking about one guy fitting up a ship and going for a roam, y'know something that you can do for an hour or two instead of days on end.

It's great that you've added your input but cloaky camping isn't really relevant to what's being discussed, I know I said "Solo pvp" but it's quite clear that I'm discussing how NPC AI is affecting one type of ganking in particular.

“We could learn a lot from crayons; some are sharp, some are pretty, some are dull, while others bright, some have weird names, but they all have learned to live together in the same box.” - Special needs division of Fcon.

Roderick Grey
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#40 - 2013-01-22 08:01:33 UTC
Juan Thang wrote:
seth Hendar wrote:
while i don't agree with OP, i still think something is not working as intended with the new AI.

the aggro mechanics seems to work odd.

i ran a couple missions last weekend with a few friends (no one warped out in the following sequence).

1- legion warpin and take full agrro and stuf...

2- then a Macha warp in, instan full aggro even without aggressing (why not, after all at that moment it is the biggest DPS on field)

3- a drake warp in => instant full aggro (even if he didn't aggressed at all)

4- a myrmydon warp in, instant full aggro, same as the drake.

done 5 missions with different NPC rat (sanshas, angel, guristas, mercs), same behaviour 100%, no ewar involved at any moment.

from our point of view, it seems that whatever warps in, the last to warpin WILL take full aggro for at least 1 to 2 minutes, regardless of the "threat" it represent to the npcs.

after this delay passed, the ship drawing most of the aggro seems random, and not related to its tank or dps ability.

i'm not sure this is the behaviour intended


I belive this from the NPC point of view:

Oh weve been shooting these guys a while and were not breaking theyre tank, OH new target lets test that ones tank.


Well no actually, because the second you're on grid they'll be a noticeable difference on their current target's ability to tank.

“We could learn a lot from crayons; some are sharp, some are pretty, some are dull, while others bright, some have weird names, but they all have learned to live together in the same box.” - Special needs division of Fcon.