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Regarding the war deck issue, possible fix [My 6 years experiences]
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NickyYo
modro
The Initiative.
#1 - 2013-01-18 11:05:36 UTC  |  Edited by: NickyYo
I kind of agree with part of CCP's stance on the war issue and here's why..

Please read on, let me tell you a short story of my past experiences..

..In my past 6 years of playing this game i have formed many corps in the past, modro, limestar, kagedfury, starhug.
In each of the corps i spent weeks solid as i worked part time to recruit the corps up, i did this so well that the corps were averaging to 60-80 newbies on at a time this means the corps had around 300 corp members in.

We provided these newbies with skill books, ships and fun times on teamspeak and in game. Then all of a sudden! a war deck comes through! The war decker corp is usualy a 3 man corp that consists of nano/heavy crap. If we faced them corp to corp we would win, however these targets would never want to fight and stayed docked. Once the older players logged, they're fun begins; they started to pick of every noob untill they eventually quit, which they did.

All the corps died except Modro as that corp moved to null sec to avoid it, see the irony? null is safer than high sec! Some newbies still quit as they couldn't handle null or were greifed to extinction in high sec.

My point is, 'most' high sec war deckers don't like a challange they just want to grief..

-------------------------------------------------MY SOLUTION-------------------------------------------------


Don't remove war decks from high sec just change them a little! Change them so there is a bidding proccess involved to concord. Heres how it could work.


  • (The Attacker) To declare a war you make a bid
  • (The Defender) To avoid or pause the war the defender will have to make another bid over the attackers bid


The bidding procces to concord logically makes sense as its technically bribes right?
It would be a great isk sink!

..
luZk
Fivrelde Corp
#2 - 2013-01-18 11:33:19 UTC
You got it backwards. If you're safer in null it means something is wrong with null not the other way around.Attention

http://i.imgur.com/1dl4DM6.jpg
NickyYo
modro
The Initiative.
#3 - 2013-01-18 11:36:26 UTC
luZk wrote:
You got it backwards. If you're safer in null it means something is wrong with null not the other way around.Attention


For newbie players, null is safer than highsec.

..
luZk
Fivrelde Corp
#4 - 2013-01-18 11:39:01 UTC
NickyYo wrote:
luZk wrote:
You got it backwards. If you're safer in null it means something is wrong with null not the other way around.Attention


For newbie players, null is safer than highsec.



Yes that's because null is broken.

http://i.imgur.com/1dl4DM6.jpg
NickyYo
modro
The Initiative.
#5 - 2013-01-18 12:12:40 UTC
luZk wrote:
NickyYo wrote:
luZk wrote:
You got it backwards. If you're safer in null it means something is wrong with null not the other way around.Attention


For newbie players, null is safer than highsec.



Yes that's because null is broken.


Or maybee that is because the highsec war deck system is broke?

..
Josef Djugashvilis
#6 - 2013-01-18 12:26:43 UTC
How would that discourage a 3 man experienced wealthy corp from war decing a poor inexperienced corp?

This is not a signature.
NickyYo
modro
The Initiative.
#7 - 2013-01-18 12:27:26 UTC
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:
How would that discourage a 3 man experienced wealthy corp from war decing a poor inexperienced corp?


Simple, it would become an isk war and carebear corps tend to have more isk.

..
Yim Sei
Ontogenic Achronycal PLC
#8 - 2013-01-18 13:00:40 UTC
I like this except for the fact that the massive corporations would easily pay themselves out of legitimate legal issues.

oh wait ......Eve is Real ;)

Post with my main? This is my main - I just overtrain and overplay my alts.
Rengerel en Distel
#9 - 2013-01-18 13:03:05 UTC
Or the 60-80 newbies you had on could have fleeted up to do whatever it was they were doing, and made themselves much less likely to be attacked. I know a lot of people hate to change the way they play the game, but if you vastly outnumber someone, even if less skilled, you have a pretty good chance to win.

Most corps that get a wardec from a griefer corp usually find out pretty fast if that corp is going to actually fight or not, or just look for the lone person out alone. If they only go after the stragglers, you just need to keep people from going alone. Without easy targets, the griefers just let the dec expire, and move on to the next target.

It wasn't a matter of there being a problem with the wardec, it was a problem with the leadership in your corp, or a mindset of the players not doing what they needed to do.

With the increase in shiptoasting, the Report timer needs to be shortened.
NickyYo
modro
The Initiative.
#10 - 2013-01-18 13:07:43 UTC  |  Edited by: NickyYo
Rengerel en Distel wrote:
Or the 60-80 newbies you had on could have fleeted up to do whatever it was they were doing, and made themselves much less likely to be attacked. I know a lot of people hate to change the way they play the game, but if you vastly outnumber someone, even if less skilled, you have a pretty good chance to win.

Most corps that get a wardec from a griefer corp usually find out pretty fast if that corp is going to actually fight or not, or just look for the lone person out alone. If they only go after the stragglers, you just need to keep people from going alone. Without easy targets, the griefers just let the dec expire, and move on to the next target.

It wasn't a matter of there being a problem with the wardec, it was a problem with the leadership in your corp, or a mindset of the players not doing what they needed to do.


Wrong.

Newbies don't think like that, they don't have any FC experience what so ever.
As soon as you offer fights to the war targets you give the griefers fun, entertainment and killboard stats they will come back for more. After the first day of constant ship loses and kills newbies get fed up so some quit, thus then makes fights less possible eventually the corp cannot do anything and everyone quits or goes afk untill the war is over. The only escape is to move to safe null sec, or for the noobs to quit the corp; if noobs quit the corp they will quit the game.

Leadership has nothing to do with it when greifing is concerned.
The best way to win a greifer war is to not fight them.

Out of those 60 average online players that turns to about 6 players in a few days into the war, i have witnesses it so many times.

CCP loses so soo soo many subscriptions to this alone.

Let corps who have strong industry fight greifers with their industry by bribing concord to end the war.

..
Rengerel en Distel
#11 - 2013-01-18 13:15:53 UTC
NickyYo wrote:
Rengerel en Distel wrote:
Or the 60-80 newbies you had on could have fleeted up to do whatever it was they were doing, and made themselves much less likely to be attacked. I know a lot of people hate to change the way they play the game, but if you vastly outnumber someone, even if less skilled, you have a pretty good chance to win.

Most corps that get a wardec from a griefer corp usually find out pretty fast if that corp is going to actually fight or not, or just look for the lone person out alone. If they only go after the stragglers, you just need to keep people from going alone. Without easy targets, the griefers just let the dec expire, and move on to the next target.

It wasn't a matter of there being a problem with the wardec, it was a problem with the leadership in your corp, or a mindset of the players not doing what they needed to do.


Wrong.

Newbies don't think like that, they don't have any FC experience what so ever.
As soon as you offer fights to the war targets you give the griefers fun, entertainment and killboard stats they will come back for more. After the first day of constant ship loses and kills newbies get fed up so some quit, thus then makes fights less possible eventually the corp cannot do anything and everyone quits or goes afk untill the war is over. The only escape is to move to safe null sec, or for the noobs to quit the corp; if noobs quit the corp they will quit the game.

Leadership has nothing to do with it when greifing is concerned.
The best way to win a greifer war is to not fight them.

Out of those 60 average online players that turns to about 6 players in a few days into the war, i have witnesses it so many times.

CCP loses so soo soo many subscriptions to this alone.


So, you replace their ships, but losing their ships in a war against griefers makes them quit? You say it's not leadership, because the newbies don't have FC experience, but you weren't doing anything to give them that experience. Seems more likely you were recruiting anyone and everyone to build up numbers, but didn't have any kind of actual plan for the corp except size. You chose not to help them get better, and let them get slaughtered.

With the increase in shiptoasting, the Report timer needs to be shortened.
NickyYo
modro
The Initiative.
#12 - 2013-01-18 13:19:37 UTC  |  Edited by: NickyYo
Rengerel en Distel wrote:
NickyYo wrote:
Rengerel en Distel wrote:
Or the 60-80 newbies you had on could have fleeted up to do whatever it was they were doing, and made themselves much less likely to be attacked. I know a lot of people hate to change the way they play the game, but if you vastly outnumber someone, even if less skilled, you have a pretty good chance to win.

Most corps that get a wardec from a griefer corp usually find out pretty fast if that corp is going to actually fight or not, or just look for the lone person out alone. If they only go after the stragglers, you just need to keep people from going alone. Without easy targets, the griefers just let the dec expire, and move on to the next target.

It wasn't a matter of there being a problem with the wardec, it was a problem with the leadership in your corp, or a mindset of the players not doing what they needed to do.


Wrong.

Newbies don't think like that, they don't have any FC experience what so ever.
As soon as you offer fights to the war targets you give the griefers fun, entertainment and killboard stats they will come back for more. After the first day of constant ship loses and kills newbies get fed up so some quit, thus then makes fights less possible eventually the corp cannot do anything and everyone quits or goes afk untill the war is over. The only escape is to move to safe null sec, or for the noobs to quit the corp; if noobs quit the corp they will quit the game.

Leadership has nothing to do with it when greifing is concerned.
The best way to win a greifer war is to not fight them.

Out of those 60 average online players that turns to about 6 players in a few days into the war, i have witnesses it so many times.

CCP loses so soo soo many subscriptions to this alone.


So, you replace their ships, but losing their ships in a war against griefers makes them quit? You say it's not leadership, because the newbies don't have FC experience, but you weren't doing anything to give them that experience. Seems more likely you were recruiting anyone and everyone to build up numbers, but didn't have any kind of actual plan for the corp except size. You chose not to help them get better, and let them get slaughtered.



You are obviously not expeirenced with this issue so therefore have no clue what you are talking about.
Eve turns into a job, newbies don't understand and quit before they even experience what eve is!

Its all good saying leadership do this and that but untill you do it, and face the same situation don't advise.

And its obviously a problem, or CCP won't be talking about removing war decks from empire, i'm simply pointing out what the real problem is with wardecks from experience! I am trying to save the wardeck mechanic. We all know its biasied to newbies or carebear industry corps and it does need looking at.

I have said this for the past 4 years, my threads were slammed, I guess CCP is catching up.

..
Herr Wilkus
Aggressive Salvage Services LLC
#13 - 2013-01-20 15:23:58 UTC
Nah. Best way to improve wars is to make wardecs 'sticky' to individuals.

Wardec cost is tied to players in corp. Therefore those players should not be able to avoid the wardec simply by dropping corp.

Not saying that individuals shouldn't be allowed to 'drop corp' - but those individuals should REMAIN legal targets for the duration of the week-long war period, regardless of their new corp membership.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#14 - 2013-01-20 15:59:09 UTC
luZk wrote:
You got it backwards. If you're safer in null it means something is wrong with null not the other way around.Attention

Null isn't safer than highsec.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#15 - 2013-01-20 16:06:41 UTC
I don't usually drink in space, but when I do, I enjoy my drinks on the war deck



.
Gillia Winddancer
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#16 - 2013-01-20 16:09:43 UTC
Herr Wilkus wrote:
Nah. Best way to improve wars is to make wardecs 'sticky' to individuals.

Wardec cost is tied to players in corp. Therefore those players should not be able to avoid the wardec simply by dropping corp.

Not saying that individuals shouldn't be allowed to 'drop corp' - but those individuals should REMAIN legal targets for the duration of the week-long war period, regardless of their new corp membership.



This is in all honesty the only real solution that can combat the issue of players running the second a wardec is issued on them.

If you are in a corp you should have to stick with certain consequences that can befall you. That is what EVE is.

That is one side of the problem covered.

The other side which is infinitely harder to tackle is genuine reason to declare war on someone.

Frankly what EVE lacks is a rank system which ranks corps somehow - like in terms of value for instance. How exactly this ranking would be based I don't know. Multiple factors perhaps, all from number of members to total value of assets which is then summarised in different ranks and from that you can get an overall rank. I don't see a reason as to why we can't have something like this considering we recently got bounty-based rankings. And let's face it, a lot of people are competitive in nature and want to be number 1 if possible.

On top of that, being ranked on whom you wardec would help clearly distinguish corps who only wardec easy targets just because they can and corps who wardec others because they are looking for a fight or genuinely want to weaken their target.

Pride and prestige - fits EVE quite nicely if you ask me.

Sure, wardeccing anyone just because you can is still perfectly fine, but adding a bit more weight on the reason part would perhaps help EVE out quite a bit.
AstraPardus
Earthside Mixlabs
#17 - 2013-01-20 16:23:49 UTC
NickyYo wrote:
luZk wrote:
NickyYo wrote:


For newbie players, null is safer than highsec.



Yes that's because null is broken.


Or maybee that is because the highsec war deck system is broke?



These statements are not true.
Every time I post is Pardy time! :3
Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#18 - 2013-01-20 16:49:34 UTC
NickyYo wrote:
.......
Out of those 60 average online players that turns to about 6 players in a few days into the war, i have witnesses it so many times.

CCP loses so soo soo many subscriptions to this alone.

...

That would be an interesting stat to actually know. When you cancel your subs you are asked why. But I hope CCP also tracks that the player was up to, and what was happening to them just before they quit.

How often does someone quit after their first suicide gank?
After their first loss in low sec?
After their first war?

Once a player quits you cannot shoot them, so it would be good to retain them.

Know a Frozen fan? Check this out

Frozen fanfiction
Rellik B00n
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#19 - 2013-01-20 16:58:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Rellik B00n
NickyYo wrote:
I. If we faced them corp to corp we would win, however these targets would never want to fight and stayed docked.



Guerrilla warfare is a form of irregular warfare in which a small group of combatants including, but not limited to, armed civilians (or "irregulars") using military tactics, such as ambushes, sabotage, raids, petty warfare, the element of surprise, and extraordinary mobility to dominate a larger and less-mobile traditional army, or strike a vulnerable target, and withdraw almost immediately.


the 'picking off of newbies' is almost irrelavant - they almost certainly picked your corp because it was big and there would always be targets online somewhere.

EvE has few enough chances for guerilla warfare as it is without limiting it further.
[Of a request for change ask: Who Benefits?](https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=199765)
Gillia Winddancer
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#20 - 2013-01-20 17:03:23 UTC
Rellik B00n wrote:
NickyYo wrote:
I. If we faced them corp to corp we would win, however these targets would never want to fight and stayed docked.



Guerrilla warfare is a form of irregular warfare in which a small group of combatants including, but not limited to, armed civilians (or "irregulars") using military tactics, such as ambushes, sabotage, raids, petty warfare, the element of surprise, and extraordinary mobility to dominate a larger and less-mobile traditional army, or strike a vulnerable target, and withdraw almost immediately.


the 'picking off of newbies' is almost irrelavant - they almost certainly picked your corp because it was big and there would always be targets online somewhere.

EvE has few enough chances for guerilla warfare as it is without limiting it further.


Yeah, cause you know, like in real life guerilla warfare you have omnipotent intel tools that instantly tells you that enemies are present nearby making it impossible for said tactic......oh wait, actually I just may be wrong on that bit.
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