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Guess what? Solo players ARE the majority in EVE.

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Confessor Golab
Lower Guk
#41 - 2013-01-20 13:09:56 UTC
Yep, Ischtanchuk, I totally agree with you.

When I started to play, I also thought that nullsec play was the endgame of EVE, then joined a nullsec alliance and after an incredibly boring and annoying month or six understood how wrong I was.
Lets see...bigger rats in belts, wow, color me impressed about emargent gameplay or whatever the leet term is.
I can mine with a rorqual support, ok, I dont mine and I can do pretty much the same profit if not more in hisec with an orca.

Continuous CTAs, now thats exciting; follow the blob in my Hurricane arty, shoot the primary, unjam guns, follow the blob 30j more, shoot at some stationary structure, 4h later keep eyes open enough to make the 30j back and log off feeling like a freed convict.

Corp politics...a few prepubescent kids playing at who screams the louder in vent till mommy comes, chaperoned by an obese man-child with serious ego issues...yep, deeply captivating.

Basically, the only thing I can do in null on my own time is ratting in belts, solo mining and scanning for seriously lower-end complexes.Everything I can do in hisec better, cheaper and safer (if its even an issue).
Also, basing in hisec permits me to make a few very fun runs on a bomber into closest nullsec, with close personal friends.
Plus of course, some missioning if I want to.

Also, lets talk about pvp...the only pvp that`s unique to nullsec is blob warfare, which is (for me) something to be avoided at all costs, due to the feelings of intense boredom, uselessness and depression it creates.
In hisec, if someone wants, there are tons of small-gang pvp, where you have actually to react and think fast, which makes it quite amusing at times.

Null-sec, what for?
Solhild
Doomheim
#42 - 2013-01-20 13:16:37 UTC
Confessor Golab wrote:
Yep, Ischtanchuk, I totally agree with you.

When I started to play, I also thought that nullsec play was the endgame of EVE, then joined a nullsec alliance and after an incredibly boring and annoying month or six understood how wrong I was.
Lets see...bigger rats in belts, wow, color me impressed about emargent gameplay or whatever the leet term is.
I can mine with a rorqual support, ok, I dont mine and I can do pretty much the same profit if not more in hisec with an orca.

Continuous CTAs, now thats exciting; follow the blob in my Hurricane arty, shoot the primary, unjam guns, follow the blob 30j more, shoot at some stationary structure, 4h later keep eyes open enough to make the 30j back and log off feeling like a freed convict.

Corp politics...a few prepubescent kids playing at who screams the louder in vent till mommy comes, chaperoned by an obese man-child with serious ego issues...yep, deeply captivating.

Basically, the only thing I can do in null on my own time is ratting in belts, solo mining and scanning for seriously lower-end complexes.Everything I can do in hisec better, cheaper and safer (if its even an issue).
Also, basing in hisec permits me to make a few very fun runs on a bomber into closest nullsec, with close personal friends.
Plus of course, some missioning if I want to.

Also, lets talk about pvp...the only pvp that`s unique to nullsec is blob warfare, which is (for me) something to be avoided at all costs, due to the feelings of intense boredom, uselessness and depression it creates.
In hisec, if someone wants, there are tons of small-gang pvp, where you have actually to react and think fast, which makes it quite amusing at times.

Null-sec, what for?



There's a lot of truth in this thread, and especially in this post. Obvious implications for eroding hisec (the core of EVE).
Xenuria
#43 - 2013-01-20 13:44:36 UTC
Nick Asir wrote:
I dont think that CCP wants solo players. Why would you play solo anyway? Seems every aspect of the game is much easier in even small groups.


I don't think of it as solo play I think of it as.... parallel play. Think child development, at young ages they don't play games with each other so much as they play their own games near each other. This is what is happening in eve I think. The majority of players are still contributing to the economy and the overall community but they are doing it in a solitary way.

CSM 12 Candidate
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
#44 - 2013-01-20 14:04:15 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Oh, ffs. Not this again. How many times does it have to be repeated?!
Character ≠ player.
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
I keep reading this and all I see is Unifex saying that more CHARACTERS are controlled by people who solo, and not specifically that there are more people playing solo.

[…]

When did Unifex say that the majority of players are playing solo?
^^ This.


Ah, Tippia, how long...

We already had this discussion with the hisec vs nullsec population numbers.

The same as then, what matters is what people DOES: they stay in hisec, and they do it to play solo.

You're right that CCP doesn't haves a metric for unique users, let alone a link to their ingame habits. But they do measure what characters do, and it turns that, by their own words, "lurking single players who are already subscribed, are the majority of characters on Tranquility".

You could claim that all those characters are multiboxed alts by "communitized" players, but in EVE as in many places, when most of the crowd quacks, most of them are ducks.

Anyway, i don't want to bore you, so, listen this, dedicated to all those who dare to not play the game as they are told to and pay the price.

Roses are red / Violets are blue / I am an Alpha / And so it's you
Dave Stark
#45 - 2013-01-20 14:06:19 UTC
is it surprising that most people in high sec play solo? there's no incentive to socialise with other players.
Solhild
Doomheim
#46 - 2013-01-20 14:14:58 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
is it surprising that most people in high sec play solo? there's no incentive to socialise with other players.


Why do people think that playing in hisec means little/no socialising? I always have chat open to friends in high/null/low whenever I log in. I met these players all over the map and team up when it suits me, nice and casual but certainly still social.
Dave Stark
#47 - 2013-01-20 14:24:43 UTC
Solhild wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
is it surprising that most people in high sec play solo? there's no incentive to socialise with other players.


Why do people think that playing in hisec means little/no socialising? I always have chat open to friends in high/null/low whenever I log in. I met these players all over the map and team up when it suits me, nice and casual but certainly still social.


chatting =/= playing.
as far as playing the game goes, there's no reason to involve other people in your activities. i chat to people while i mine, but i'm not mining with them. there's nothing in it for me.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#48 - 2013-01-20 14:34:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
We already had this discussion with the hisec vs nullsec population numbers.

The same as then, what matters is what people DOES: they stay in hisec, and they do it to play solo.
…and as usual, there's little to indicate this. All we have to indicate what the players do is that a lot of them engage in solo play on occasion — only some 16% do it exclusively.

Quote:
But they do measure what characters do, and it turns that, by their own words, "lurking single players who are already subscribed, are the majority of characters on Tranquility".
…which, as Natsett points out tells us very little about what the actual players do. It also raises the question of methodology. Do they count all those NPC-corp highsec mission alts as “a lurking single player” because it's the group-play nullsec main that makes all the noise? As always, all they can talk about is characters. Characters are not the same thing as players, and character behaviour only provides a very fractured and piecemeal sample of actual player behaviour.

Confessor Golab wrote:
Yep, Ischtanchuk, I totally agree with you.

When I started to play, I also thought that nullsec play was the endgame of EVE, then joined a nullsec alliance and after an incredibly boring and annoying month or six understood how wrong I was.
The problem is that you though EVE had an endgame and that you joined a very boring nullsec alliance. It's not particularly hard to find one without CTAs or without any politics you have to care about.
Felicity Love
Doomheim
#49 - 2013-01-20 14:36:05 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
is it surprising that most people in high sec play solo? there's no incentive to socialise with other players.


Depends what you mean by "incentive".

Then again, I don't find very much "incentive" in the juvenile, Epeen asshattery of *some* null sec CTA fleet channels.

Blink

"EVE is dying." -- The Four Forum Trolls of the Apocalypse.   ( Pick four, any four. They all smell.  )
Dave Stark
#50 - 2013-01-20 14:46:10 UTC
Felicity Love wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
is it surprising that most people in high sec play solo? there's no incentive to socialise with other players.


Depends what you mean by "incentive".

Then again, I don't find very much "incentive" in the juvenile, Epeen asshattery of *some* null sec CTA fleet channels.

Blink



by incentive i mean a reason to want to go out of your way and spend time with other players. take miners for example (mainly because i am one) what benefit do i get by mining with other people?

erm, none.

most of the common argument is "but then your orca pilot can mine too, you get an extra miner!" which, is entirely false. because all my orca pilot does is end up hauling, which it was doing anyway while providing boosts. i've gained nothing.

where as, on the flip side, you end up sharing a belt/system with some one else who's basically taking food from your table. as it stands mining kinda promotes being as antisocial as possible. hiding in some quiet unloved corner of space sitting on a pile of rocks like some kind of space dragon and telling people to "get off my land" like some kind of redneck famer. all in all, the activity itself promotes being antisocial and isolated.
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
#51 - 2013-01-20 15:17:57 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
We already had this discussion with the hisec vs nullsec population numbers.

The same as then, what matters is what people DOES: they stay in hisec, and they do it to play solo.
…and as usual, there's little to indicate this. All we have to indicate what the players do is that a lot of them engage in solo play on occasion — only some 16% do it exclusively.

Quote:
But they do measure what characters do, and it turns that, by their own words, "lurking single players who are already subscribed, are the majority of characters on Tranquility".
…which, as Natsett points out tells us very little about what the actual players do. It also raises the question of methodology. Do they count all those NPC-corp highsec mission alts as “a lurking single player” because it's the group-play nullsec main that makes all the noise? As always, all they can talk about is characters. Characters are not the same thing as players, and character behaviour only provides a very fractured and piecemeal sample of actual player behaviour.

(...).


So most characters do "lurking" solo gameplay, but apparently they do it without human (player) intervention and thus we can't infer that "most characters" equate to "most players". That's briliant.

Seriuosly Tippia, you should post there in the thread i linked above, I think you just proved CCP that they can ignore one of the 5 targets for their "next decade" planning process.

Roses are red / Violets are blue / I am an Alpha / And so it's you
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
#52 - 2013-01-20 15:19:28 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Felicity Love wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
is it surprising that most people in high sec play solo? there's no incentive to socialise with other players.


Depends what you mean by "incentive".

Then again, I don't find very much "incentive" in the juvenile, Epeen asshattery of *some* null sec CTA fleet channels.

Blink



by incentive i mean a reason to want to go out of your way and spend time with other players. take miners for example (mainly because i am one) what benefit do i get by mining with other people?

erm, none.

most of the common argument is "but then your orca pilot can mine too, you get an extra miner!" which, is entirely false. because all my orca pilot does is end up hauling, which it was doing anyway while providing boosts. i've gained nothing.

where as, on the flip side, you end up sharing a belt/system with some one else who's basically taking food from your table. as it stands mining kinda promotes being as antisocial as possible. hiding in some quiet unloved corner of space sitting on a pile of rocks like some kind of space dragon and telling people to "get off my land" like some kind of redneck famer. all in all, the activity itself promotes being antisocial and isolated.


Well, you can be pretty much social if they're not minng the same minerals as you do...Lol

Roses are red / Violets are blue / I am an Alpha / And so it's you
Aareya
Backwater Redux
Tactical Narcotics Team
#53 - 2013-01-20 15:24:36 UTC
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
I have been re-reading the CSM minutes and just came across an interesting line, this:

Quote:
Unifex reminded the CSM once again that this group, the lurking single players who are already subscribed, are the majority of characters on Tranquility
.


This is no surprise, considering the hypothetical number of cyno and Jita alts in game. Many, many "solo characters".

Twitter:   @AareyaEVE
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#54 - 2013-01-20 15:27:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
So most characters do "lurking" solo gameplay, but apparently they do it without human (player) intervention and thus we can't infer that "most characters" equate to "most players". That's briliant.
No, that's stupid, as is your use of strawmen rather than a proper argument.

The problem is that you still assume that character ≡ player. I have three characters — two of which are never used in any kind of group context, and one of which occasionally does things solo, just like everyone everyone else. None of those characters have ever made a peep in any kind of of social context and are thus the quintessential lurkers. I am not a solo player, and yet, most of the characters do solo work and lurk. So no, we cannot infer anything about me as a player from my characters.

It's not a difficult concept to understand if you get rid of the false notion that characters and players are the same thing (of course, doing so would do immense damage to highsec entitlement so I'm guessing that quite a few will never accept that distinction).

ed: vvvv …so no, as Natsett points out, Unifex has said nothing about what players do.
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#55 - 2013-01-20 15:28:54 UTC
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Oh, ffs. Not this again. How many times does it have to be repeated?!
Character ≠ player.
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
I keep reading this and all I see is Unifex saying that more CHARACTERS are controlled by people who solo, and not specifically that there are more people playing solo.

[…]

When did Unifex say that the majority of players are playing solo?
^^ This.


Ah, Tippia, how long...

We already had this discussion with the hisec vs nullsec population numbers.

The same as then, what matters is what people DOES: they stay in hisec, and they do it to play solo.

You're right that CCP doesn't haves a metric for unique users, let alone a link to their ingame habits. But they do measure what characters do, and it turns that, by their own words, "lurking single players who are already subscribed, are the majority of characters on Tranquility".

You could claim that all those characters are multiboxed alts by "communitized" players, but in EVE as in many places, when most of the crowd quacks, most of them are ducks.

Anyway, i don't want to bore you, so, listen this, dedicated to all those who dare to not play the game as they are told to and pay the price.

That's not what's being said, not at all.

Unifex DID NOT say that there are more solo PLAYERS.

You guys are agrueing something on the basis that Unifex said it, and he NEVER SAID IT.

He said that solo player represent the most CHARACTERS, not that there are more solo players.

If you guys are going to quote what he said and argue over it, at least argue over what he said. You guys managed threee pages of an arguement based off something Unifex DIDN'T ******* SAY.

A discussion over solo vs group players is one thing, using something a dev said to say that others are wrong, when the dev never even said what you gusy are saying he said is rediculous.


ErrorRon
Turbo-Encabulator LLC
#56 - 2013-01-20 15:37:06 UTC
Comes to massive multiplayer online game.. complains devs ignore solo players..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UtItWL6GfSM CCP Gargant -  Dev of my heart.
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
#57 - 2013-01-20 15:41:56 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
So most characters do "lurking" solo gameplay, but apparently they do it without human (player) intervention and thus we can't infer that "most characters" equate to "most players". That's briliant.
No, that's stupid, as is your use of strawmen rather than a proper argument.

The problem is that you still assume that character ≡ player. I have three characters — two of which are never used in any kind of group context, and one of which occasionally does things solo, just like everyone everyone else. None of those characters have ever made a peep in any kind of of social context and are thus the quintessential lurkers. I am not a solo player, and yet, most of the characters do solo work and lurk. So no, we cannot infer anything about me as a player from my characters.

It's not a difficult concept to understand if you get rid of the false notion that characters and players are the same thing (of course, doing so would do immense damage to highsec entitlement so I'm guessing that quite a few will never accept that distinction).

ed: vvvv …so no, as Natsett points out, Unifex has said nothing about what players do.


And again and again and again... you're proving that CCP is wrong to worry about solo players. Seriously, got to that thread and tell that to them.

Roses are red / Violets are blue / I am an Alpha / And so it's you
Solstice Project
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#58 - 2013-01-20 15:44:36 UTC
I'm a solo player.
I'm not a casual.
I'm not a carebear.
Casual players are targets.

Please go die in a fire.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#59 - 2013-01-20 15:49:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:
And again and again and again... you're proving that CCP is wrong to worry about solo players.
And again, no, I'm saying that they aren't particularly worrying about solo players, and I don't get where you get the idea that they are.

They already have the survey data to show it: only 16% at the last count were solo players. Everyone else engaged in group play to some extent.
Karrl Tian
Doomheim
#60 - 2013-01-20 15:53:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Karrl Tian
Nick Asir wrote:
I dont think that CCP wants solo players. Why would you play solo anyway? Seems every aspect of the game is much easier in even small groups.


Small group of alts you mean--and yes they do want solo players making said alts. Thanks to PLEX (what really broke EVE more than anything else ever has) I can now run 2-4 accounts at once and take care of all my logistic/income need and even make enough to keep all 4 accounts running. In fact, for the small-scale/soloist, alts become better than other players. Alts are always on when I want them to be, always do what I want them to do and they never, ever decide to kill me and take my stuff (unless I'm drunk and lock the wrong target).