EVE General Discussion

Games find their own balance.

Or rather players find it.

All games have imbalance.

For example, chess.

Chess has an imbalance in that White scores more wins than Black. The first move advantage. Hundreds of chess players over hundreds of years have discussed this. It will never be balanced, but it's fun to talk about.

No matter what CCP does to balance EVE, players find their own balance.

For example, what if CCP decided Amarr ships were grossly underpowered and doubled all their stats. Players would complain, and then buy Amarr ships and train their skills. In the end balance would be found by all players flying Amarr ships.

So when game devs talk about balancing I think they are missing an opportunity.

Whatever balance they come up with, players will find their own level.

I think the best value is to include players fully in balance discussions, mainly because it's fun. And the players are the eventual and true determiners of balance.

It might even be fun to make ship design much more determined by player choices.

I've no idea what a drake, blob or drake blob is.

However I agree, a mix of strategies is what CCP may aim for, and that would be shown by a mix of ships being used. And the content they spend time and dollars on all getting an even use.

Some of their design has to be unbalancing.

Like causing divisions between players with different empires, factions and the variation of resources between areas are two examples.

I'd actually like to see CCP say that they are working on unbalancing the game. That would be really interesting.

I've seen some good pics of EVE Online play.

Makes me think it would be a good movie.

Star Trek with a Game of Thrones darkness.

Yeah you are right.

If you disgustingly buff one race and have everybody only play that race it is okay because balance is like water.

I used to fly falcon back when they were awesome

I'm in a busy room at the moment I will have a look when things quieten somewhat, thanks!

I think your idea of "balance" is a different one from that we're generally working with... or is used for game design.

imagine a set of these sort of tubes:

http://www.sciencelab.com/page/S/PVAR/20015/10-502-4 (the vertical water tubes of different shapes and such used to demonstrate how water seeks equilibrium)

you're basically (IMO) arguing that no matter how the tubes are shaped, the water level will adjust so they all hold the same amount.

but thats not really the issue, in fact, thats sorta the *PROBLEM*.

if each ship is a "tube", then they might want to adjust the shape and width of each tube to change how much VOLUME of water each tube holds. (how much that ship is used) for example EW Frigates might each be a thin little tube by design, and a BS or BC might be a wider tube as they are broader use for a wider span of situations, and a higher cost efficiency.

now, the imbalance, is when a particular class, or a specific ship within that class, has a water level thats significantly higher or lower than it SHOULD be. when the water is NOT balancing out evenly among the tubes (different volumes, but equal altitude of water) when the Tengu or Drake tube is full to the top, but the Proteus and Brutix (or whatever) tubes are half full, and the Legion tube is a quarter full, when they are supposed to all balance out to be about the same.

a whole class of ship, or weapon, or whatever, being completely neglected while another is favored the vast majority of the time... thats not good. there should be constant bickering over which is better and why, because it should all be situational enough and style enough that everyone is both right and wrong.

an example is how often in help chat, people ask which hybrid ammo to use with their rails. some people jump right to antimatter, some like lead... personally I like iridium. ultimately hybrid ammos are MOSTLY balanced, as each one (of the T1 ammos, in large, anyway) has something going for it and something against it. what range you like, how much damage you will give up for a "better" range or for more cap use, is a very individual balance of play style and experience. (now T2 Hybrid ammo is terrible, but thats another issue)

IN LARGE most of EVE is actually not that badly balanced. IN LARGE the answer to "which is best" is answered by "it depends on the situation or what you are trying to do" which is GOOD. now the problem is when you only take one step more specific, and the answer is radically for one option, and against another. theres nothing wrong with one ship being better in a situation than another, but when one is RADICALLY better, with only a little more narrowing of use... too radical.

EVE is a game, but so is designing EVE.

CCP is playing a min/max game with money they spend on content and how much that content is used. This is what they mean by balance. They want their money to be bang for buck, so to speak.

And yes, the water meniscus should be in constant movement to indicate balance.

However players are the ones who weigh, measure and find any want in the game. That is what CCP is measuring when they glance at the water levels in their tubes.

I think there is always more room for players in the balancing game. And if anything that's better for EVE than worse.

So, how do we as players measure how well CCP is reacting to our balancing?

From what you say about ammo it seems we need a balance that's slightly off balance in order to be balanced.

You mention chat opinions about ammo types as being varied, and how that shows balance.

And I've now watched the first of the Clear Skies movies.

That was a terrific piece of work! I'm very impressed.

How did they do the inside of the ship? That question kept bugging me as I watched.

Will definitely watch the other two.

Thank you very much for that little tidbit. CCP should make some stock footage up for players to have a play with.

~~~

Guess I should say something on topic.

Balancing is like a tightrope walker, constantly in motion, to stay in one place.

It's safe game design, one wouldn't expect game breaking updates from changes in the order of a few percentage points to one minor part of the game. And the constant balancing means the tightrope walker (game devs) cannot charge headlong into a glorious future. Like the Light Brigade.

So in a way, we can breath a sigh of relief when game devs say they are going off to do some ship balancing. Means they won't get us into too much trouble.

Not like when they announce glory filled updates like changes to the combat system. Which Star Wars Galaxies went through with their Combat Upgrade, and which wasn't very popular in the now dead MMO. Runescape also did this last year, their Evolution of Combat, which will probably kill their game. As of this time, Runescape is now showing fewer Google hits than in 2004.

So when it comes to balancing.

Keep it small, keep it segmented, and small steps.

Like the Kaizen principle I guess, and all that entails.

Most importantly talk about it. Neither SWG or RS did with their combat balancing.