These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

What If CCP Has The Wrong Idea?

First post
Author
Not Politically Correct
Doomheim
#61 - 2013-01-19 20:41:14 UTC
Ginger Barbarella wrote:
Not Politically Correct wrote:
Mickeysoft (Microsoft) hasn't gone out of business, and everything they have ever released has been garbage. Go figure.


Welcome back to the forums, NickyYo. Big smile


I guess that is supposed to mean something to me. Sorry. It doesn't.

Vaal Erit
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#62 - 2013-01-19 20:53:12 UTC
Not Politically Correct wrote:
The problem is that I don't really like the way that the game has been going. More precisely, the direction that the game seems to be headed in. I didn't realize until the CSM 7 December Meeting Notes came out, that CCP is the driving force behind many of the things I don't like. I thought that stuff just happened on it's own and CCP didn't care enough to do anything about it.

Thus my post. Do they know what they are doing and the effect it is having? Are they willing to change direction if a better direction is pointed out to them? It doesn't seem that either is true.


CCP clearly knows what is going on and the effect it is having. CCP will not change its direction because of one forum whiner with zero information that thinks he knows more than CCP. CCP makes the game CCP wants to play and will not turn it into WoW in space no matter how many ridiculous claims you make about how much more money it will make.

Fact is that changing EVE to fit with other MMORPGs will kill it in less than a year and CCP knows this. EVE is a niche game and will *only* survive by playing to their strengths. This is basic business 101. What you want is for EVE to copy other MMORPGs. This results in failure such as when microsoft released the Zune to copy the iPod. Look it up. You want to turn EVE into the freaking Zune and you think it will make money. You have zero business sense and CCP will happily ignore you and continue to be successful.
Captain Tardbar
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#63 - 2013-01-19 20:55:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Captain Tardbar
Nicor Syke'Nexen wrote:
lets see:

worried about company income? check

worried about sub numbers? check


i smell an ex-wow player... anyone else?


No one wants to play by themselves except maybe miners.

CCP has to pay the bills somehow and if enough people quit without new subsciprtions then they have to lay off developers which results in less expansion which results in less players which result in a handful of people playing by themselves before they shut down the server.

If you like eve and understand the position CCP is in, you have to understand they need to replace subscription losses some how.

How they go about it is completly up to CCP and the people who own the company.

SImply whining in the forums that CCP shouldn't try to get new subscriptions won't fly because its suicidal for CCP to attempt to simply keep the status quo.

I'm not saying CCP should turn EvE into WoW, but they have to constantly change the game to keep it fresh or people will eventually get bored and quit the game.

Its what they have been doing for the past 10 years and will most likley continue to change the game as they see fit.

Looking to talk on VOIP with other EVE players? Are you new and need help with EVE (welfare) or looking for advice? Looking for adversarial debate with angry people?

Captain Tardbar's Voice Discord Server

Not Politically Correct
Doomheim
#64 - 2013-01-19 21:01:47 UTC
Vaal Erit wrote:
Not Politically Correct wrote:
The problem is that I don't really like the way that the game has been going. More precisely, the direction that the game seems to be headed in. I didn't realize until the CSM 7 December Meeting Notes came out, that CCP is the driving force behind many of the things I don't like. I thought that stuff just happened on it's own and CCP didn't care enough to do anything about it.

Thus my post. Do they know what they are doing and the effect it is having? Are they willing to change direction if a better direction is pointed out to them? It doesn't seem that either is true.


CCP clearly knows what is going on and the effect it is having. CCP will not change its direction because of one forum whiner with zero information that thinks he knows more than CCP. CCP makes the game CCP wants to play and will not turn it into WoW in space no matter how many ridiculous claims you make about how much more money it will make.

Fact is that changing EVE to fit with other MMORPGs will kill it in less than a year and CCP knows this. EVE is a niche game and will *only* survive by playing to their strengths. This is basic business 101. What you want is for EVE to copy other MMORPGs. This results in failure such as when microsoft released the Zune to copy the iPod. Look it up. You want to turn EVE into the freaking Zune and you think it will make money. You have zero business sense and CCP will happily ignore you and continue to be successful.


As I have said, many times, I have never played any other online game. Consequently, I know nothing about them. Also, I have never heard of a Zune.

Since when did I become a whiner? Is that the new term for people who disagree with the status quo? If so. it is nice to know, but doesn't do anything to fix the problems.



Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#65 - 2013-01-19 21:08:03 UTC
The only competitor to EvE, is EvE itself.

The secret to increase subs? Deliver more awesome patches like Apochrypha (and even Retribution, cruisers pew pew speaking) and less garbage like Dominion and Tyrannis and they are set to success.
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#66 - 2013-01-19 21:09:37 UTC
In an effort to make "more" money Coca-Cola sells syrup to bottlers in other countries, who damn near all are violating human rights laws. The parent company Coca-Cola is constantly being suid by human rights groups for supporting those bottlers and continueing to sell them syrup, to make "more" money.

Extreme example is extreme, but it illustrates this simple point.

Just because you can do something to make more money, doesn't mean you SHOULD.

Shitting on your customers to attract people who SHOULDN'T be playing EVE to begin with, is not an option just because it can make you "more" money.


And,
It's that very mentality that, "it'll make you more money" that leads to companies like Coke doing the things they do, as well as the ability to get away with it. People who think that way tend to not give a **** what's being done, especially when it's not effecting THEM adversely.


Who cares if they **** on the rest of us to make more money, that's what you're saying, right?
Not Politically Correct
Doomheim
#67 - 2013-01-19 21:16:53 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
The only competitor to EvE, is EvE itself.

The secret to increase subs? Deliver more awesome patches like Apochrypha (and even Retribution, cruisers pew pew speaking) and less garbage like Dominion and Tyrannis and they are set to success.


You are right, unfortunately, about Eve being it's only competitor. That's actually pretty sad. No incentive to change their mindset.

I don't agree that more shiney upgrades are going to save the game, though. It appears to me, and maybe me only, that when CCP reaches their goal, whatever that is, we're all going to be neck deep in faeces in an uninhabitable universe. Then the games of 'Russin Sleigh Ride' will start, excpet that people will be volunteering to be thrown to the wolves.
Not Politically Correct
Doomheim
#68 - 2013-01-19 21:20:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Not Politically Correct
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
In an effort to make "more" money Coca-Cola sells syrup to bottlers in other countries, who damn near all are violating human rights laws. The parent company Coca-Cola is constantly being suid by human rights groups for supporting those bottlers and continueing to sell them syrup, to make "more" money.

Extreme example is extreme, but it illustrates this simple point.

Just because you can do something to make more money, doesn't mean you SHOULD.

Shitting on your customers to attract people who SHOULDN'T be playing EVE to begin with, is not an option just because it can make you "more" money.


And,
It's that very mentality that, "it'll make you more money" that leads to companies like Coke doing the things they do, as well as the ability to get away with it. People who think that way tend to not give a **** what's being done, especially when it's not effecting THEM adversely.


Who cares if they **** on the rest of us to make more money, that's what you're saying, right?


The extra money would be a side effect only. One I think that might interest them more than any humanitarian consideration.

And who decides who is and isn't suited to play Eve? You? If CCP had ever even given a thought to that, there wouldn't be trial accounts.

EDIT: Oh. About the last line. Not 'us, but 'you' and I would agree with you.
Captain Tardbar
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#69 - 2013-01-19 21:31:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Captain Tardbar
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
In an effort to make "more" money Coca-Cola sells syrup to bottlers in other countries, who damn near all are violating human rights laws. The parent company Coca-Cola is constantly being suid by human rights groups for supporting those bottlers and continueing to sell them syrup, to make "more" money.

Extreme example is extreme, but it illustrates this simple point.

Just because you can do something to make more money, doesn't mean you SHOULD.

Shitting on your customers to attract people who SHOULDN'T be playing EVE to begin with, is not an option just because it can make you "more" money.


And,
It's that very mentality that, "it'll make you more money" that leads to companies like Coke doing the things they do, as well as the ability to get away with it. People who think that way tend to not give a **** what's being done, especially when it's not effecting THEM adversely.


Who cares if they **** on the rest of us to make more money, that's what you're saying, right?


Welcome to 21st century capitalism.

By law, publicly owned companies are suppose to everything within the law (and in legal gray areas) to maximize profit in order to give a return to shareholders.

This means doing bad things like laying off hard working employees, shipping production overseas to basically slave labor conditions, exploting tax loopholes, and basically get away with any morally questionable behaviores they can get away with in order to maximize profit.

Don't like it. Vote with your wallet and watch how you can't buy basically anythign worth a damn.

Chances are your computer was made in a factory in China where they basically poop on the employees rights and pay them wages that are a crime.

Also chances are the hard drive you have was made in Thailand which is notorious for freedom of speach violations of its citizens (can't talk bad about the king).

By the fact you have a computer means you are complicit with both the Chinese and Thailandese authoritarian governments and support corporations who sole duty is to maximize profits. (I'm guilty too obviously if that matters.)

Guess what we can talk about how bad it is (I'd vote socialist if they were viable parties) but you are just as guilty as the next person for buying the products.

CCP is a privatley held company so its only beholden two its owners which according wikipedia is Navator Partners and Geeral Catalyst Partners which the former specializes in telecommunications, pharmaceuticals and financial services and the later is a venture capital firm.

Those two companies don't care about whines on the forums. They want a return on their invesment and if CCP does poorly they will start pulling the strings just like any other business owners who want their invesment return.

Its simply the fact of capitalism.

Looking to talk on VOIP with other EVE players? Are you new and need help with EVE (welfare) or looking for advice? Looking for adversarial debate with angry people?

Captain Tardbar's Voice Discord Server

Hosanna
Isktr
#70 - 2013-01-19 21:32:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Hosanna
Well it has gone to way I wish it had not. Via unnecessarily complicating basic functions like chat channels and inventorys.
Cant see anything new that is good coming from those guys.
Not Politically Correct
Doomheim
#71 - 2013-01-19 21:36:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Not Politically Correct
Captain Tardbar wrote:
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
In an effort to make "more" money Coca-Cola sells syrup to bottlers in other countries, who damn near all are violating human rights laws. The parent company Coca-Cola is constantly being suid by human rights groups for supporting those bottlers and continueing to sell them syrup, to make "more" money.

Extreme example is extreme, but it illustrates this simple point.

Just because you can do something to make more money, doesn't mean you SHOULD.

Shitting on your customers to attract people who SHOULDN'T be playing EVE to begin with, is not an option just because it can make you "more" money.


And,
It's that very mentality that, "it'll make you more money" that leads to companies like Coke doing the things they do, as well as the ability to get away with it. People who think that way tend to not give a **** what's being done, especially when it's not effecting THEM adversely.


Who cares if they **** on the rest of us to make more money, that's what you're saying, right?


Welcome to 21st century capitalism.


Those two companies don't care about whines on the forums. They want a return on their invesment and if CCP does poorly they will start pulling the strings just like any other business owners who want their invesment return.

Its simply the fact of capitalism.


You're talking about a side issue. The discussion is about CCP's focus. Is it right. Are they headed in the right direction. I certainly don't think so.

EDIT: I don't think they are headed in the right direction for either CCP or the players.
Captain Tardbar
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#72 - 2013-01-19 21:40:07 UTC
Not Politically Correct wrote:
Captain Tardbar wrote:
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
In an effort to make "more" money Coca-Cola sells syrup to bottlers in other countries, who damn near all are violating human rights laws. The parent company Coca-Cola is constantly being suid by human rights groups for supporting those bottlers and continueing to sell them syrup, to make "more" money.

Extreme example is extreme, but it illustrates this simple point.

Just because you can do something to make more money, doesn't mean you SHOULD.

Shitting on your customers to attract people who SHOULDN'T be playing EVE to begin with, is not an option just because it can make you "more" money.


And,
It's that very mentality that, "it'll make you more money" that leads to companies like Coke doing the things they do, as well as the ability to get away with it. People who think that way tend to not give a **** what's being done, especially when it's not effecting THEM adversely.


Who cares if they **** on the rest of us to make more money, that's what you're saying, right?


Welcome to 21st century capitalism.


Those two companies don't care about whines on the forums. They want a return on their invesment and if CCP does poorly they will start pulling the strings just like any other business owners who want their invesment return.

Its simply the fact of capitalism.


You're talking about a side issue. The discussion is about CCP's focus. Is it right. Are they headed in the right direction. I certainly don't think so.


I'm not really saying what CCP is doing is right or wrong, I'm just stating its reality of the system. In the end they'll do what they think will maximize profits in order to give their owners a return in their invesment.

Hell the CCP devs may even be in disagreement of what their parent companies what them to do (we don't know), but in the end the owners of the company call the shots and obviously that is a return on their investment.

Looking to talk on VOIP with other EVE players? Are you new and need help with EVE (welfare) or looking for advice? Looking for adversarial debate with angry people?

Captain Tardbar's Voice Discord Server

Xinivrae
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#73 - 2013-01-19 21:43:44 UTC
Not Politically Correct wrote:
You're talking about a side issue. The discussion is about CCP's focus. Is it right. Are they headed in the right direction. I certainly don't think so.

EDIT: I don't think they are headed in the right direction for either CCP or the players.


You're so right. I'm glad you came to this place to enlighten us poor, ignorant sheeple with this new, original perspective. Really.
Google Voices
Doomheim
#74 - 2013-01-19 21:52:21 UTC
CCP has chosen the wrong path......What?




Would you like to know more?






Cool



"Fozzie could not comment on when this issue would be resolved and stated that “one day Veritas will come up to me and say ‘hey I fixed off-grid boosting’”, but he had no idea on a potential timeframe for this sort of miracle."

Not Politically Correct
Doomheim
#75 - 2013-01-19 22:00:49 UTC
Captain Tardbar wrote:


I'm not really saying what CCP is doing is right or wrong, I'm just stating its reality of the system. In the end they'll do what they think will maximize profits in order to give their owners a return in their invesment.

Hell the CCP devs may even be in disagreement of what their parent companies what them to do (we don't know), but in the end the owners of the company call the shots and obviously that is a return on their investment.


This I agree with, but I'm not trying to get at the devs, even they are the most visible part of CCP. I think we need to give the bean counters something to think about.

Change will have to be from top down, but I think change is necessary.

From the meeting notes, it appears that the devs, fow whatever reason, are trying to integrate a single person shooter with a space exploration game, and doing it badly.

The CSM may have been just a clever PR move, especially since they don't really seem to have ANY say in anything, but who are the CSMs? People who have been playing long enough to have enough friends to get them elected. Doesn't that kind of suggest that they have already accepted CCP's focus on development, whether they actually like it or not?

Does CCP ever really look at the reasons that Trial accounts don't turn into subscriptions? I doubt that there is any way to find out why the people who say 'no' do that. I think CCP really ought to care. Admittedly, someone who plays for five minutes and then quits because he got ganked by a can dropper doesn't leave a big footprint behind, but you can't blame him for leaving. Losing his first ship for reasons unknown is not what most people consider fun.




Frying Doom
#76 - 2013-01-19 22:14:59 UTC
I always feel that the biggest problem with CCPs design is "Thats a good idea" mentality, how often have they thought "Thats a good idea" and wasted hundreds of man hours doing up videos for fanfest or implemented things into the game without asking the players or the CSM if it is something they think is a priority or that they actually want.

Look at the time and resources wasted on WiS, now personally I like WiS but what happened was that they kept starting the same project over and over again as someone came up with a new "good idea", so in the end millions of dollars were wasted and we got a CQ almost no one uses, a massive number of unsubs and a clothing store.

Other good ideas include

The UI, bounty hunting and frankly piles more fluff that I can't be bothered looking up.

What occurred for the following to happen "Unifex stated that what CCP did was spend effort and prototype what would make a good POS system. It would, however, only affect the group of people who manage POSes. Focusing that amount of time and effort on some small singular aspect of the game and delivering only that “is what will kill the business”. (page 37)

I think it was another "good idea", he was going on about making PI something for tablets and frankly probably didn't want to do the POS revamp so as to have the resources for that. Now once again I like the idea but it is another example of "The Good Idea"

So while some "Good Ideas" are exactly that we do have a CSM for a reason and a large part of that is to tell CCP when it stuffs it up. Preferably before they get to the waste millions of dollars stage.

Unlike one CSM member who thinks it is to mindlessly praise CCP and put down fellow CSM members.

Any spelling, grammatical and punctuation errors are because frankly, I don't care!!

Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#77 - 2013-01-19 22:18:13 UTC
Not Politically Correct wrote:
Does CCP ever really look at the reasons that Trial accounts don't turn into subscriptions? I doubt that there is any way to find out why the people who say 'no' do that. I think CCP really ought to care. Admittedly, someone who plays for five minutes and then quits because he got ganked by a can dropper doesn't leave a big footprint behind, but you can't blame him for leaving. Losing his first ship for reasons unknown is not what most people consider fun.

Make highsec safer.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

Gillia Winddancer
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#78 - 2013-01-19 22:30:46 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Not Politically Correct wrote:
Does CCP ever really look at the reasons that Trial accounts don't turn into subscriptions? I doubt that there is any way to find out why the people who say 'no' do that. I think CCP really ought to care. Admittedly, someone who plays for five minutes and then quits because he got ganked by a can dropper doesn't leave a big footprint behind, but you can't blame him for leaving. Losing his first ship for reasons unknown is not what most people consider fun.

Make highsec safer.


Somehow I don't think this would be a good idea.

Before anything else there are mainly two things that keep people from EVE.

First and foremost it is the ever-famous "EVE learning cliff" which in all honesty more or less translates to EVE interface more than anything else. The mechanics themselves, whilst numerous are rather easy to learn if you actually bother breaking them down into smaller pieces. The latest overhauls on the interfaces have been marvellous however and should keep improving as they have lately. The fitting screen would be a good candidate to revamp next. Whilst I am not a general fan of "hand-holding", for instance T1 fitting suggestions could be an option worth having.

Second reason which is probably more overlooked than people would think, is that many players are not that good/used to setting their own goals alternatively EVE is not good at telling players what goals that are potentially available.

Not Politically Correct
Doomheim
#79 - 2013-01-19 22:33:34 UTC
Now we are getting somewhere. Two posts in a row that I totally agree with, and are right on the track of the thread.

I was hoping I wasn't the only one who saw the problems. :)

Ooops, too slow. There's a dissenter in the house.
Not Politically Correct
Doomheim
#80 - 2013-01-19 22:39:19 UTC
Gillia Winddancer wrote:
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Not Politically Correct wrote:
Does CCP ever really look at the reasons that Trial accounts don't turn into subscriptions? I doubt that there is any way to find out why the people who say 'no' do that. I think CCP really ought to care. Admittedly, someone who plays for five minutes and then quits because he got ganked by a can dropper doesn't leave a big footprint behind, but you can't blame him for leaving. Losing his first ship for reasons unknown is not what most people consider fun.

Make highsec safer.


Somehow I don't think this would be a good idea.

Before anything else there are mainly two things that keep people from EVE.

First and foremost it is the ever-famous "EVE learning cliff" which in all honesty more or less translates to EVE interface more than anything else. The mechanics themselves, whilst numerous are rather easy to learn if you actually bother breaking them down into smaller pieces. The latest overhauls on the interfaces have been marvellous however and should keep improving as they have lately. The fitting screen would be a good candidate to revamp next. Whilst I am not a general fan of "hand-holding", for instance T1 fitting suggestions could be an option worth having.

Second reason which is probably more overlooked than people would think, is that many players are not that good/used to setting their own goals alternatively EVE is not good at telling players what goals that are potentially available.



Both good points. I've been told many times that Eve isn't like other games. The thing that bothers me, though, is the number of people who don't even stay with it long enough to find out that the learning curve is steep because CCP seems to enjoy new players getting blown up. I can't see that adding much to the stability of the economy, or anything else.