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The voting reform discussion

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Maelle LuzArdiden
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#521 - 2012-12-15 15:24:45 UTC
Snow Axe wrote:

There's a world of difference between communication existing and trying to measure and quantify amounts and quality of communication, especially via something as ridiculous as post counts.


Certainly, it's qualitative data and hence hard methods to measure it are difficult or even impossible to come up with. And once gain, I never suggested post count limits. Still, using common sense works here as well- if a candidate has no posting history or any similar evidence of communicating with other players, who does he represent?

Quote:
Honestly I'm opposed to the idea that every single CSM member needs to be active on the official forums as it is - I think you could easily get away with one or two representatives speaking for the CSM. There's people who gravitate more towards that anyway. Of course, that'd involve things like "unified messages" and "communication strategies", two things this current CSM seems to have none of, so vOv.


I on the other hand see it as their job- to actively discuss matters with the player base, so that they can act as representatives of the community. And I specifically mean two-way communication, current CSM has imho done a decent job of informing the public about their doings, and they also have shown efforts to gather player input before summits.

Can one fully understand the developments in game without reading the concerns of GD posters, of F&I topics? Is it enough to reflect on issues only on your corp/fleetmates?

Of course this all comes down to point of views- whether we see CSM members as community representatives, or representatives of limited constituents. Obviously this second option then sees the CSM itself as similar to a parliament, where various parties try to influence other to advance their own priorities... virtual game world politics?
Scatim Helicon
State War Academy
Caldari State
#522 - 2012-12-16 11:29:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Scatim Helicon
Maelle LuzArdiden wrote:
Scatim Helicon wrote:

Who judges this, exactly? Do you really think its a good idea for CCP to go through the candidate list deciding whether somebody's posting history or blog site is active enough for them to be approved candidates?

The fact is that if some anonymous nobody without any ability or desire to communicate with his fellow players shows up as a CSM candidate, they're probably not going to get voted in anyway.


The CCP employees dealing with CSM would judge that. I don't really see it as an impossible task.

You miss my point. The CSM's role is to provide impartial and frank input on issues affecting Eve, this sometimes involves telling CCP things that they don't want to hear. That's why CCP should be as hands-off as possible when it comes to selecting candidates, and why requiring a CCP stamp of approval based on something as arbitrary as 'community engagement' before you can be a permitted to stand de-legitimises the whole process.

Quote:
Really? It's happened before, since all it takes now is a big enough alliance backing their candidate.

You'll get the odd one, but even then they need to at least communicate with their base to get out the vote. Mittens doesn't post on eve-o any more but was active on Kugutsumen and other forums and a large proportion of his votes in both CSM6 and CSM7 (heh) came from outside our coalition. Even an alliance as big as TEST screwed this up this time around - their bloc vote wasn't sufficient to get their man a top 7 spot, and since nobody outside of TEST knows who Dovinian is (his post history here is almost non-existent, and as far as I know he has no presence outside the TEST forums) he didn't pick up any real slice of the public vote. Hell, back in CSM5 our candidate couldn't do better than third alternate when the votes came through - Helen's fine, but not exactly a prolific poster or big name personality and so didn't fire up the base to go and vote.

Every year a couple of dozen anonymous nobodies pop out of the woodwork to announce their candidacy, and every year the vast majority are greeted with a 'sorry, who are you again?' and crash out having done little but diverted a handful of votes from their corpmates and friends that could have gone more viable active candidates.

Quote:
Do you agree with the view that a CSM member should communicate with EVE players outside their corp/alliance?

Again, the voting process mostly enforces this since nobody is motivated to go out and vote for inactive and uncommunicative candidates (and voting is anonymous, so even if an alliance orders their members to vote a specific way there's no way to enforce this).

The CSM as a whole should certainly be communicating with the playerbase frequently and all the members should contribute towards that at least. Individual communications can be helpful (not least for demonstrating usefulness and securing votes next time around) but I don't think it needs to be absolutely mandatory - what matters more is that individual's ability to absorb issues from the playerbase and communicate them to CCP, since that is the CSM's primary role. Individual CSMs should be open to communication from the players and should make the best way to communicate with them known, but that doesn't necessarily mean it needs to be on eve-o, or that they should have some minimum postcount threshold to cross.

Every time you post a WiS thread, Hilmar strangles a kitten.
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#523 - 2012-12-17 21:04:04 UTC
Voter apathy is the problem, not the voting system.

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.
Snow Axe
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#524 - 2012-12-17 23:05:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Snow Axe
edit: posting on no sleep = bad, stupid idea

"Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread["
Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
#525 - 2012-12-18 04:42:01 UTC
Scatim gets it. Cool

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary
Freelancer117
So you want to be a Hero
#526 - 2012-12-26 12:29:18 UTC
maybe we can have: Liquid Democracy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fg0_Vhldz-8

Eve online is :

A) mining simulator B) glorified chatroom C) spreadsheets online

D) CCP Games Pay to Win at skill leveling, with instant gratification

http://eve-radio.com//images/photos/3419/223/34afa0d7998f0a9a86f737d6.jpg

http://bit.ly/1egr4mF
Anne-Louise Chasse
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#527 - 2012-12-26 18:57:03 UTC
If you do not mind, I'll ask another question.

Have someone noticed that CSM and the official forums are useless unless you have a good command of English?

Clearly, EVE has a very international user base, but also should be obvious that an undetermined percentage (but I guess high) of users simply do not speak enough English to follow the thread of discussions.

In the best case, they can use Google Translate, Wordreference, and other tools to make yourself understood and get a general idea of the discussion. It's what I do, but personally, I do because I want the theme of WiS and disgusted me to see that has been abandoned for all Retribution and 2013.

You have to be very convinced and be a little crazy to even attempt to follow a couple of topics on forums without a good command of English. From the Spanish/Latin-American I know, most barely speaks English and uses the help of the players who do speak to learn to play. I guess Germans, Russians and Japanese have it easier because they have localized clients, and even their own subforums, but I doubt that anyone in the CSM is able, if necessary, take a topic that one subforums and raise it to the CSM.

So, how many voters do not vote because they simply are not able to understand the subject on which is voted?

I wonder how many players are doomed to not see and not hear about the issues that affect them, and if CCP is losing a valuable resource to not listen and not talk to these people?
Varius Xeral
Doomheim
#528 - 2012-12-26 20:01:28 UTC
As in much of the rest of life, learn the lingua franca or suffer under the consequences.

Official Representative of The Nullsec Zealot Cabal
raskonalkov
Tie Fighters Inc
#529 - 2012-12-27 00:23:32 UTC
Anne-Louise Chasse wrote:
If you do not mind, I'll ask another question.

Have someone noticed that CSM and the official forums are useless unless you have a good command of English?

Clearly, EVE has a very international user base, but also should be obvious that an undetermined percentage (but I guess high) of users simply do not speak enough English to follow the thread of discussions.

In the best case, they can use Google Translate, Wordreference, and other tools to make yourself understood and get a general idea of the discussion. It's what I do, but personally, I do because I want the theme of WiS and disgusted me to see that has been abandoned for all Retribution and 2013.

You have to be very convinced and be a little crazy to even attempt to follow a couple of topics on forums without a good command of English. From the Spanish/Latin-American I know, most barely speaks English and uses the help of the players who do speak to learn to play. I guess Germans, Russians and Japanese have it easier because they have localized clients, and even their own subforums, but I doubt that anyone in the CSM is able, if necessary, take a topic that one subforums and raise it to the CSM.

So, how many voters do not vote because they simply are not able to understand the subject on which is voted?

I wonder how many players are doomed to not see and not hear about the issues that affect them, and if CCP is losing a valuable resource to not listen and not talk to these people?


I was a supporter of Montrolio in the last election. In doing my faithfull duty to him. I decided to take his posts and the platforms he stood on and google translate them and post them in the foreign language sections in the forums.

CCP ended up locking those threads, so it would be harder for the non english people to participate in the elections.

There is ways to get around the speech barrier I suppose. But hard as well. But the russians got a CSM person or two.
Xhadde
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#530 - 2013-01-14 17:14:32 UTC
http://www.electoral-reform.org.uk/voting-systems/

There CCP, you are welcome. Any discussion regarding voting systems will fall within any of the systems there described. Each with its pros ad cons (amazing how many people in the internets appropriate entire discussion without ever citing), there is no silver bullet, just whatever you decide to go with. Democracy is messy and not everyone will be happy no matter your decision. Just make the decision, support it with facts and move on. Besides that, just make sure people do know that is election time and how to vote. Login pop-ups, and a few other methods have been suggested, and are all within your ability to introduce. Any barrier to potential candidates is bad, let the voters speak by not electing "undesirable" candidates.

have fun making the decision,
MainDrain
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#531 - 2013-01-17 10:51:45 UTC
Katarina Reid wrote:
Just focus on getting more people to vote. A pop up on login you have choose to vote or not before you get in the game.


Simple and i Like this idea. it should encourage more people to actually vote.

However how many will just pick a random character to get the screen over and done with could be an issue. This also doesnt remove the issue large power blocks will have, but then again, i dont think anything will.
Snow Axe
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#532 - 2013-01-17 11:02:20 UTC
MainDrain wrote:
Simple and i Like this idea. it should encourage more people to actually vote.

However how many will just pick a random character to get the screen over and done with could be an issue. This also doesnt remove the issue large power blocks will have, but then again, i dont think anything will.


That's why you never force a vote - you make it as easy as possible and inform people in any way you can, but never force or gift. You don't just want votes for the sake of votes, you want participants in the system.

There also is no "issue" with voting blocs having power. The issue is with low voter turnout. Fix that and you'll notice that blocs suddenly don't have the power and influence they used to.

"Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread["
Lady Zarrina
New Eden Browncoats
#533 - 2013-01-17 21:38:44 UTC
personally I would like to see a system that:

- makes voting easy and seamless
- Gives each candidate a useful mechanism to state their platform and background. Ideally simple, consistent and informative. If a candidate wants to create a separate elaborate site elsewhere, so be it.

Not sure about large power blocs. If they have the numbers, they deserve a candidate. Hopefully if everyone (i know this is dreaming) votes, there will me less or no issues around stacking the CSM with multiple members. Some dang organizations out there are just too organized for their own good :)

EVE: All about Flying Frisky and Making Iskie
Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
#534 - 2013-01-19 15:33:38 UTC
I would like a system where i could have 2 votes:
- one for the player i want to ellect to the CSM.
- one for the player i don't want to ellect to the CSM (like a downvote)

The Tears Must Flow
Scatim Helicon
State War Academy
Caldari State
#535 - 2013-01-19 17:22:22 UTC
Vaju Enki wrote:
I would like a system where i could have 2 votes:
- one for the player i want to ellect to the CSM.
- one for the player i don't want to ellect to the CSM (like a downvote)


The inevitable consequence of this is ensuring that any candidate who ever says anything remotely controversial or unpopular is downvoted into oblivion and you end up with a CSM made up of passive grey suits.

Every time you post a WiS thread, Hilmar strangles a kitten.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#536 - 2013-01-22 14:22:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Malcanis
Vaju Enki wrote:
I would like a system where i could have 2 votes:
- one for the player i want to ellect to the CSM.
- one for the player i don't want to ellect to the CSM (like a downvote)


There are 14 CSM seats. Focus your energies on seeing that the 1 guy you're interested in gets the 1% of possible votes required in order to be elected, and stop worrying about other people with different views being represented as well.

EDIT: Of course, there's an exception that proves every rule.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Scooter McCabe
Thunderwaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#537 - 2013-01-23 20:48:21 UTC
This farce has gone on long enough. The CSM and CCP need to table this discussion as its getting dangerously close to another Monocole Gate. The advantage and disadvantage of open democratic elections will always be the result of that election. There is no 100% satisfied electorate, no 100% voter participation. No system can do that. The only thing you do by putting some byzantine election system in place is just generate the kind of distrust for CCP that has existed since T20 and kept alive in well in events like "Monocole Gate."

Lets have the courage, especially over the internet, to tell people to keep bad ideas to themselves. To call people out for their underhanded motivations and be the bearer of bad news to the folks that couldn't get elected even if CCP helped them cheat. I'd rather have people that actually understand the game hold an iron fisted tryanny over the CSM seats than hand out participation awards in the form of CSM seats to complete idiots. Its better for game content and CCP's financial bottom line.
Night Beagle
Beagle Inc
#538 - 2013-02-15 09:08:44 UTC
Freelancer117 wrote:
maybe we can have: Liquid Democracy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fg0_Vhldz-8



Exactly my platform as I run for CSM 8. This will make consulting the community much easier and relevant.

Also, even compulsory voting might do the trick in breaking the patterns. As I said previously, and somebody else said also, at the login screen it is the best point to insert a voting popup. Give people one week to see it and choose and we will have informed voters making the best choice for themselves.

The world needs you to stop being boring!
Snow Axe
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#539 - 2013-02-15 09:16:46 UTC
Night Beagle wrote:
Also, even compulsory voting might do the trick in breaking the patterns. As I said previously, and somebody else said also, at the login screen it is the best point to insert a voting popup. Give people one week to see it and choose and we will have informed voters making the best choice for themselves.


Replace "informed voters making the best choice" with "disinterested people mashing whatever button they have to to make that stupid popup go away so they can log in and play Internet Spaceships" and you're absolutely right.

"Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread["
Josef Djugashvilis
#540 - 2013-02-16 18:49:21 UTC
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
Frying Doom wrote:
you guys


This is the problem right here. You still buy into the disproven bullshit that the council is run by 0.0 special interests and that the currrent voting system somehow prevents minority sub-communities from obtaining representation at the highest level (including Iceland travel). Justify that meme first with some hard facts (one of which would have to be that I don't exist and that I'm not sitting here in Iceland having some brutally naked conversations with EVE's Executive Producer), and maybe more informed, intelligent voters will start taking the "you people" crap seriously. Roll


You seem angry, is your make-up running into your eyes and stinging a bit?

This is not a signature.