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Dread blapping

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ThaDollaGenerale
Perkone
Caldari State
#41 - 2013-01-19 12:41:35 UTC
Two step wrote:

FYI, this isn't something that I just came up with out of thin air, this has been a frequent complaint I have heard from many different corps and alliances. What makes EVE PVP great is that you should always be able to counter a specific fleet setup without just bringing 2x the numbers. That isn't the case with dreads + webs/painters.



If you can't figure out a way to kill a group of dreads with web/TP support WITHOUT 2X the numbers, you're an awful fleet commander.

The issue as two step defines it really sounds like people want to be able to roll a group of dreads + support involved in sites with whatever garbage pail fleet of failfit hurricanes and thoraxes they have at that moment.


Hard Knocks has had many missed opportunities to kill a bunch of dreads running sites not for lack of numbers, but for lack of a specific composition.

When we do kill dreads we roll out a number of specific "site running" dread killing fleets. Example:

"OH GOD NOOB LOLOLOL YOU BLOBBED!!one," you might say. In return, I say that we brought an amount of isk comparable to the dreads lost. In my eyes, if we had died because of a screwup, we would have lost the same amount of money as the dreads.

Yes, fleet comps in WHs are far more screwy than in k-space, but I thought that was the whole point?

The way I look at it is not the numbers brought but by the isk brought on each side of the field. My opinion is that CCP would want a 3 Bhaal + T3 + Support fleet to be roughly equal in ISK cost to the dreads they are killing.


So to all you decidedly unimaginative FCs out there whining about dreads. You will continue your dying to dreads as long as you don't actually think about the game, enjoy being awful.

Really, I think we should be addressing the issue of caps being warped to gates and THEN being dread blapped, as it seems from this thread that there are far more idiots in this game than w-space dwellers.
Hathrul
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#42 - 2013-01-19 14:05:34 UTC
i dont think dreads are the problem, the moros is. after the changes the moros has become the best dreadnaught in everything. great tracking, great damage projection over ranges and more damage then any of the others can even come close too.

you can argue what you want, but that change made a big change for wormhole space. and the post above this is the perfect example. old style fleet with some bhaalgorns to neut the dreads and they die. the problem comes when there are webbers on the field. where you can evade or semi-tank the old dreadnaughts, with the insane damage a moros puts out battleships are just a no go unless in immense numbers to nearly alpa capacitor on dreads. if you cant, and there are webbers on the field, your battleship is dead. if the post above had loki's on the dreadnaught side, id say the dreads would have taken it assuming there was something to keep the loki alive.

as for "if you cant figure out how to kill a webber with twice the numbers youre a terrible fc", fine, do tell. how do you break through the remote rep on a triage archon? you cant bring bhaals, because they die to dreads, and you need about 10 neuting legions to cap out a good archon pilot. And how many wh alliances can field a fleet with 10 neuting legions, and then enough of everything else to still fight?

the moros is overpowered. and it changes the fleet dynamics in wormhole space. we'll find a way around it eventually, but its not as simple as some people here claim
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#43 - 2013-01-19 14:15:34 UTC
nerf Gallente


.
Prince Mammon
24th Imperial Crusade
Amarr Empire
#44 - 2013-01-19 14:30:58 UTC
Two step wrote:
I built my CSM run on helping wormhole space, now I'm just going to try and get it nerfed, HAHA suckers


Thanks alot Two face, glad to know I wasted that CSM vote.Roll

CCP Gargant: "total blanket no-tolerance policy was enacted on accusing the ISD of misbehaving" Who else said there people couldn't be accused of misbehaving? Nothing to see here, move along.
Mia Restolo
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#45 - 2013-01-19 14:53:54 UTC
Hathrul wrote:


as for "if you cant figure out how to kill a webber with twice the numbers youre a terrible fc", fine, do tell. how do you break through the remote rep on a triage archon?


Umm... you use E-war to negate the webbers? (damps, ecm)

If you think the only option you have is MOAR DEEPS you ARE a terrible FC because in your rock vs paper fight you forgot about scissors.

If you can't get the right fleet composition, you don't have the gang to take them on and deserve to die if you try.
Rengas
AQUILA INC
Verge of Collapse
#46 - 2013-01-19 15:13:57 UTC
Mia Restolo wrote:
Hathrul wrote:


as for "if you cant figure out how to kill a webber with twice the numbers youre a terrible fc", fine, do tell. how do you break through the remote rep on a triage archon?


Umm... you use E-war to negate the webbers? (damps, ecm)

If you think the only option you have is MOAR DEEPS you ARE a terrible FC because in your rock vs paper fight you forgot about scissors.

If you can't get the right fleet composition, you don't have the gang to take them on and deserve to die if you try.


You are terrible.

Stop posting.

Also damping someone in an armor brawl is super effective.
Ayeson
State War Academy
Caldari State
#47 - 2013-01-19 15:31:17 UTC
Hathrul wrote:
if the post above had loki's on the dreadnaught side, id say the dreads would have taken it assuming there was something to keep the loki alive.


You missed the part where he said that was a site running dread killing fleet, i.e. dropping on top of the dreads, so the dreads really don't get a chance to do much, seeing as they get neuted as soon as the bhaals land.

You can do it sans neuts too, like HERE

ThaDollaGenerale wrote:

If you can't figure out a way to kill a group of dreads with web/TP support WITHOUT 2X the numbers, you're an awful fleet commander.


Hathrul wrote:
as for "if you cant figure out how to kill a webber with twice the numbers youre a terrible fc", fine, do tell. how do you break through the remote rep on a triage archon? you cant bring bhaals, because they die to dreads, and you need about 10 neuting legions to cap out a good archon pilot. And how many wh alliances can field a fleet with 10 neuting legions, and then enough of everything else to still fight?


Badquoting, but I would just bring something to jam the lokis, you dont need to target the archon when you can just make the loki's useless. Path of least resistance.

I ♥ the orthrus
Omen Nihilo
Omen Holdings
#48 - 2013-01-19 15:39:23 UTC
Mia Restolo wrote:

Umm... you use E-war to negate the webbers? (damps, ecm)

You literally have no idea what you're talking about. Roll

All it takes is one missed jam and you're alpha'd. And there's no way you're permajamming my Loki w/ 66.9 sensor strength.

ThaDollaGenerale wrote:
Example

Those are sniper dreads.Blink If they were close-range fit with loki and archon support they probably could've taken you (assuming they aren't retards in the first place). And the real problem is if they bring in dreads at range.

Hathrul wrote:
old style fleet with some bhaalgorns to neut the dreads and they die. the problem comes when there are webbers on the field. where you can evade or semi-tank the old dreadnaughts, with the insane damage a moros puts out battleships are just a no go unless in immense numbers to nearly alpa capacitor on dreads.

You hit the nail on the head.

A tracking Moros with strong Drop tracks twice as well as an arty Maelstrom. That wouldn't be such a problem if it didn't do upwards of 15k dps.
Ayeson
State War Academy
Caldari State
#49 - 2013-01-19 15:45:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Ayeson
Omen Nihilo wrote:

A tracking Moros with strong Drop tracks twice as well as an arty Maelstrom. That wouldn't be such a problem if it didn't do upwards of 15k dps.


The insane tracking afforded to the momo seems to be our issue, but what about without strong drop?

That and the moros can only apply its DPS to a -mostly- stationary target, so tracking might not actually be that big of a problem?

I ♥ the orthrus
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#50 - 2013-01-19 15:49:22 UTC
How much dps does a revelation do?

The wishlist is pretty much complete...
Omen Nihilo
Omen Holdings
#51 - 2013-01-19 15:52:14 UTC
9k dps... with about half the tracking.
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#52 - 2013-01-19 16:13:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Rek Seven
Okay so not too far off the Moros. Since neither dread is effective without support (i.e. Web loki) is the tracking that big of an issue?

Let's say ccp nerf the Moros' tracking, wouldn't support fleets just need to bring more webs and/or target painters?

where would these nerfs end? When dreads can't target sub BS hulls anymore or when all dreads are exactly the same and we're all flying vanilla ships?

The wishlist is pretty much complete...
Hathrul
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#53 - 2013-01-19 16:40:31 UTC
Rek Seven wrote:
Okay so not too far off the Moros. Since neither dread is effective without support (i.e. Web loki) is the tracking that big of an issue?

Let's say ccp nerf the Moros' tracking, wouldn't support fleets just need to bring more webs and/or target painters?

where would these nerfs end? When dreads can't target sub BS hulls anymore or when all dreads are exactly the same and we're all flying vanilla ships?


not to far off? thats like 7k dps off. with much better tracking. rev's are fine, moros are scary as fck atm.

as for ecm and damps, yes, you can use those on webbers. problem is that a smart fc will bring a lotta webs, eccm, remote eccm just to prevent that. and unlike the attacking side that needs to get near perma jams, the defending site just needs a single cycle to waste your bhaal

as for 3 bhaals vs 3 dreads....dont think you can neut them flat fast enough
Omen Nihilo
Omen Holdings
#54 - 2013-01-19 16:45:34 UTC
Uhmm... the difference between 9k and 15k dps is huge. And the tracking matters.

Before the Moros buff (not to mention the addition of t2 siege) you could bring bhaals and evade/mitigate/semi-tank a couple dreads long enough to neut them down. I think CCP should drop Moros dps levels down to 12-13k and nerf the tracking by 15% or so.
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#55 - 2013-01-19 17:10:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Rek Seven
Yeah that sounds reasonable.

Knocking 3-5k dps is irrelevant when you think about it, as all it means is the defenders (and that is what we are talking about - defence dreads) need to recruit/train additional dread pilots to make up for the loss. Additional webs/tp's in fleet would make up for the reduced tracking... So high level wormhole pvp with be even more of a numbers game than it is now.

I think the answer to the issue that some people seem to have is a change to the mechanics rather than a change to the ships... But that is just my opinion, i am a newb when is comes to caps

The wishlist is pretty much complete...
AutumnWind1983
Reboot Required
#56 - 2013-01-19 20:03:47 UTC
Numbers for thought.

Per EFT, a Rev with all V's, triple damage mods, t2 siege, meta guns, and faction crystals will do 10320, a Moros 14190. A Nag with three gyros, two navy bcs, meta highs, t2 siege, faction ammo will do 11520. I have no idea how to fit a phoenix, haven't seen enough of them out there.

If you put three tracking computers with tracking scripts on your moros your tracking is 0.01299. Your rev is 0.00506. You can't do that with Nag without killing your tank. Despite this it tracks at 0.00608. With those same scripts the Moros can hit at 21+19. The Rev 36+24. The Nag 17+36.

Take from that what you will.

James Arget for CSM 8! http://csm.fcftw.org
ExookiZ
The Dark Space Initiative
Scary Wormhole People
#57 - 2013-01-20 00:19:58 UTC
So you understand Autumn capital misiles dont deal damage. What EFT says and what a naglfar actually does are much different. You may as well not have citadel torps/cruises fit to your ship. Even with webs and paints your lucky if you get 3 digits.

Most of the people saying it isnt a problem/ "just use ECM" obviously dont encounter this tactic often. I encourage you to come bring ECM tengus against a fleet of dreads. they will 1 shot your tengus.

If you land the dreads 30-40 out in different directions, you can nail t3s without a single web/TP. And no mater what direction you fly your getting "under" the guns of one dread and only reducing your transversal to the others. We have tested this on SISI, with 0 sub caps the dreads can still blap a t3 fleet off the field. Not as successfully as with webs/tps of course but it will still happen.

The problem here is that dreads+ range and your looking at a mexican standoff, as long as it boils down to caps home field advantage will always triumph. The only good fights you get is when you choose not to use your cap fleet and even at the risk of losing have a good time. Something that doesnt happen often enough.

Event Organizer of EVE North East
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#58 - 2013-01-20 00:35:13 UTC
Only real solution is to use sig damage scaling like titans aka properly working tracking formula but not to the degree it is on titans (even then some stuff can be bloomed up enough to apply a lot of damage).

Not a great fan of that change happening especially as it would hit other dreads harder than the moros probably. Personally tho I know it wouldn't be a popular one I'd rather see the moros get its old drone capabilities back and turret capabilities reduced back closer to the revelation. It still has good dps that way but without the same levels of alpha and gives the attackers the option of killing its drones. (One thing I don't want to see is all the dreads end up copy and paste versions of each other with slightly different models).
Two step
Aperture Harmonics
#59 - 2013-01-20 02:53:09 UTC
Sorry, I got a little busy, and didn't get back to this thread until now. I do think a large part of the problem is the tracking on the Moros, and perhaps with that fixed blapping wouldn't be as big of an issue.

As for the "bring ECM" argument, you are missing the point. So now I need to bring both ECM ships as well as more DPS ships to counter Lokis + dreads. As was pointed out, miss a jam or two and you are screwed.

CSM 7 Secretary CSM 6 Alternate Delegate @two_step_eve on Twitter My Blog
Winthorp
#60 - 2013-01-20 03:16:50 UTC
Two step wrote:
Sorry, I got a little busy, and didn't get back to this thread until now. I do think a large part of the problem is the tracking on the Moros, and perhaps with that fixed blapping wouldn't be as big of an issue.

As for the "bring ECM" argument, you are missing the point. So now I need to bring both ECM ships as well as more DPS ships to counter Lokis + dreads. As was pointed out, miss a jam or two and you are screwed.


But if the other fleet has thought about their composition enough to bring DPS and utility webbing ships why should they now be penalized because you don't want to?