These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Care-bears may be physically unable to PvP

First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Sarah Schneider
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#161 - 2013-01-19 11:36:38 UTC
TigerXtrm wrote:
Industry won't survive without PVP and PVP won't survive without industry. Simple fact. I don't get why people get hung up on what someone else does in a space game. The people who mine and build and stuff like that are the same people who may prefer a city builder or simulator above a shooter or RTS. More into organizing than blowing things up.

So how about we just respect each others choices and realize that one can not exist without the other. People tend to forget a lot around here.

People also tend to forget that while Eve needs both and both PVP and industry are equally important, the whole economy as in everything depends on ships got blown up. Second part that people also seems to forget is mentality or the people whom are doing those two activities.

Eve's lifeline depends on those two aspects working in conjunction and balanced in distribution. Problem is, while people whose doing PVP can do industry or say in a hypothetical scenario where all the carebears (people whom refuses to do anything related to PVP in any way) are gone from Eve, they will do them in the carebears place and actually, many PVPers right now are doing that exact thing (both shooting at each other with one char and doing pve/industry stuff with another). What about the other way around? if say all PVPers are gone from Eve, would the carebears step up and keep the balance between production and destruction/supply and demand? right, they won't, they will just quit the game for the simple fact that they already determined to not doing PVP in the first place and just waiting for the inevitable economic collapse.

My point is, sure, in the grand scheme both are important, as CCP Ytterbium once said. But notice this, there has never been any devs or GMs whom promoted to people to not do PVP or informing players that Eve is not a conflict driven (PVP) sandbox, while no one is forcing people to play Eve in a certain way, the simple fact and the one realization remains, the one aspect that CCP has put into numerous length to make sure people are still and would still be doing it despite all the contents, changes and updates they've put into the game is because...

Eve, will die without PVP.

"I'd rather have other players get shot by other players than not interacting with others" -CCP Soundwave
Chopper Rollins
hahahlolspycorp
#162 - 2013-01-19 11:40:12 UTC
Vera Algaert wrote:
Corey Fumimasa wrote:
I’ve talked with a few carebears over the years and I have come to believe that they can’t PvP. Not because they don’t want to kill the griefers and gankers, but because they physically can’t do it. They freeze up at the keyboard when they get attacked.

This experience is often referred to as "the shakes" in EVE and is just your regular high adrenaline fight-or-flight response which is not very well suited to computer games (evolution didn't select for the ability to calmly sit in a chair keeping track of half a dozen different mini-tasks while watching transversal and module heat closely when in a life-threatening situation).....
.



Fight-flight or freeze are the usual adrenaline inspired options. Predator/girlfriend's angry husband upwind might not smell you, but motion-detecting eyes will see you the second you run. Your choice is largely determined by your body chemistry and neural wiring, both handed down by your ancestors. As an added layer of complexity, the astoundingly huge network of neurons in your brain has the ability to occasionally allow anomalous wave forms of electrical activity to affect your choices, overriding instinct.
That's what gives us the awesome ability to be stupid, to try things never tried before, to try things we just tried and got burned by. Ants never do anything stupid, their nests do not fail due to corruption or internal chaos. Cockroaches are relentlessly stupid, which serves them well. A cockroach faced with a maze that shocks it at dead-ends will get shocked at the same place a few times. Remove the same roach's head and it's problem solving intelligence actually increases as nerve bundles allow the body to navigate away from pain stimuli. It will pick one wall and find it's way through, usually.


I've known a few pilots who freeze when attacked. In a computer game! I had to know them a while before they would tell me, I always tried to be understanding without being condescending or pitying.

TLDR version for livestock: some people are physically and mentally incapable of combat, and still not cowards.






Goggles. Making me look good. Making you look good.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#163 - 2013-01-19 12:01:58 UTC
Corey Fumimasa wrote:
Cyprus Black wrote:
You seem to confuse can't and wont. They can, they just choose not to. Drastically altering game mechanics for players who already choose not to participate is bad design.

Players would participate if they had some options for doing so. IDK why I even respond to you here. Eve will continue to evolve and change, some of those changes will be hard on you.


They have all the options we do.
Corey Fumimasa
CFM Salvage
#164 - 2013-01-19 12:13:06 UTC
Chopper Rollins wrote:



Fight-flight or freeze are the usual adrenaline inspired options. Predator/girlfriend's angry husband upwind might not smell you, but motion-detecting eyes will see you the second you run. Your choice is largely determined by your body chemistry and neural wiring, both handed down by your ancestors. As an added layer of complexity, the astoundingly huge network of neurons in your brain has the ability to occasionally allow anomalous wave forms of electrical activity to affect your choices, overriding instinct.
That's what gives us the awesome ability to be stupid, to try things never tried before, to try things we just tried and got burned by. Ants never do anything stupid, their nests do not fail due to corruption or internal chaos. Cockroaches are relentlessly stupid, which serves them well. A cockroach faced with a maze that shocks it at dead-ends will get shocked at the same place a few times. Remove the same roach's head and it's problem solving intelligence actually increases as nerve bundles allow the body to navigate away from pain stimuli. It will pick one wall and find it's way through, usually.


I've known a few pilots who freeze when attacked. In a computer game! I had to know them a while before they would tell me, I always tried to be understanding without being condescending or pitying.

TLDR version for livestock: some people are physically and mentally incapable of combat, and still not cowards.



I hope its OK that you are my new BFF!
Corey Fumimasa
CFM Salvage
#165 - 2013-01-19 12:17:42 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Corey Fumimasa wrote:
Cyprus Black wrote:
You seem to confuse can't and wont. They can, they just choose not to. Drastically altering game mechanics for players who already choose not to participate is bad design.

Players would participate if they had some options for doing so. IDK why I even respond to you here. Eve will continue to evolve and change, some of those changes will be hard on you.


They have all the options we do.


That's not all the options that should exist in a sandbox. Lets open the doors a bit and see just how far the sandbox goes.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#166 - 2013-01-19 12:23:04 UTC
Corey Fumimasa wrote:

]

That's not all the options that should exist in a sandbox. Lets open the doors a bit and see just how far the sandbox goes.


And what options do we lack exactly that stops these people?
Torrin Vakarian
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#167 - 2013-01-19 12:24:35 UTC
im a carebear all the way. i love pvp but i have to major hurdles i need to overcome (3 technically). 1. i suck at fitting ships. 2. im poor as hell (gotta love highsec). and 3. i made the bad idea of putting nearly all my traing in the industry skill tree. so its gonna take a **** ton of time for me to train up the right combat skills. i think for most carbears pvp is just a good waste of time and a bad waste of isk. fun as hell but i only make maybe 3-6 mil an hour. idk if thats average for a highsec miner but i cant afford it.
Corey Fumimasa
CFM Salvage
#168 - 2013-01-19 12:32:30 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Corey Fumimasa wrote:

]

That's not all the options that should exist in a sandbox. Lets open the doors a bit and see just how far the sandbox goes.


And what options do we lack exactly that stops these people?

POS's that cause expensive modules to blow up, the ability to manufacture modules that may self destruct when used in combat, The ability to hire NPC mercs, sovereignty that denies enemies certain ships or skill sets, mines, kamikaze ships.

The type of combat that the bears will enjoy is denied to them in Eve. It would be so much more interesting if they had some enjoyable options to strike back.
Dave Stark
#169 - 2013-01-19 12:40:31 UTC
Corey Fumimasa wrote:
It would be so much more interesting if they had some enjoyable options to strike back.


you mean, like the new bounty system?
sellable kill rights?
etc
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#170 - 2013-01-19 12:43:52 UTC
Corey Fumimasa wrote:

POS's that cause expensive modules to blow up, the ability to manufacture modules that may self destruct when used in combat, The ability to hire NPC mercs, sovereignty that denies enemies certain ships or skill sets, mines, kamikaze ships.

The type of combat that the bears will enjoy is denied to them in Eve. It would be so much more interesting if they had some enjoyable options to strike back.


POS will not only blow up expensive modules but also the ship around them

The point in such a module is?

NPC mercs will never happen. However you can hire player mercs in several different ways.

That sov idea is bad and you should feel bad and will never happen because it will fix nothing and break a great many things.

We used to have mines but they caused game breaking problems and were removed.

Kamikaze ships already exist.
Corey Fumimasa
CFM Salvage
#171 - 2013-01-19 12:44:38 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Corey Fumimasa wrote:
It would be so much more interesting if they had some enjoyable options to strike back.


you mean, like the new bounty system?
sellable kill rights?
etc

No...I don't know what else to say. Just "No" that's not at all what I mean. Those systems just funnel isk back to the enemy. There should be some options that allow bears to kill and destroy and attack the PvPers.
Zol Interbottom
Blimp Requisition Services
#172 - 2013-01-19 12:45:02 UTC
Make some systems where a cyno can only support ships under a certain limit, watch alliances **** bricks now that there are places immune to their tactics

"If you're quitting for the 3rd time you clearly ain't quitting" - Chribba
Corey Fumimasa
CFM Salvage
#173 - 2013-01-19 12:47:37 UTC
Zol Interbottom wrote:
Make some systems where a cyno can only support ships under a certain limit, watch alliances **** bricks now that there are places immune to their tactics


Did you just post in the wrong thread?
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#174 - 2013-01-19 12:49:49 UTC
Corey Fumimasa wrote:

No...I don't know what else to say. Just "No" that's not at all what I mean. Those systems just funnel isk back to the enemy. There should be some options that allow bears to kill and destroy and attack the PvPers.


There is, they just chose to ignore them like you just did.
Dave Stark
#175 - 2013-01-19 12:49:57 UTC
Corey Fumimasa wrote:
There should be some options that allow bears to kill and destroy and attack the PvPers.


so, kill rights?
Corey Fumimasa
CFM Salvage
#176 - 2013-01-19 13:02:31 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Corey Fumimasa wrote:

POS's that cause expensive modules to blow up, the ability to manufacture modules that may self destruct when used in combat, The ability to hire NPC mercs, sovereignty that denies enemies certain ships or skill sets, mines, kamikaze ships.

The type of combat that the bears will enjoy is denied to them in Eve. It would be so much more interesting if they had some enjoyable options to strike back.


POS will not only blow up expensive modules but also the ship around them

The point in such a module is?

NPC mercs will never happen. However you can hire player mercs in several different ways.

That sov idea is bad and you should feel bad and will never happen because it will fix nothing and break a great many things.

We used to have mines but they caused game breaking problems and were removed.

Kamikaze ships already exist.



Actual industrialists would develop options to attack their opponents. The sandbox is not complete if the industrialists here cannot pursue those same goals.
The options that I present may not work, I'm ok with that. But the "sandbox" does not currently support options for destruction and attack that would be implemented by people living within it.

The question of this thread is "what options for attack, that are enjoyable to bears, could be implemented in the sandbox ?'
MatrixSkye Mk2
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#177 - 2013-01-19 13:04:45 UTC  |  Edited by: MatrixSkye Mk2
Sarah Schneider wrote:

Eve's lifeline depends on those two aspects working in conjunction and balanced in distribution. Problem is, while people whose doing PVP can do industry or say in a hypothetical scenario where all the carebears (people whom refuses to do anything related to PVP in any way) are gone from Eve, they will do them in the carebears place and actually, many PVPers right now are doing that exact thing (both shooting at each other with one char and doing pve/industry stuff with another). What about the other way around? if say all PVPers are gone from Eve, would the carebears step up and keep the balance between production and destruction/supply and demand? right, they won't, they will just quit the game for the simple fact that they already determined to not doing PVP in the first place and just waiting for the inevitable economic collapse.


I actually agree with you in that carebears and PVPers depend on each other. Where I disagree with you is in that if all carebears left PVPers would simply fill in the void and Eve would be just fine. This may be true at first. But, if those that seek to PVP are now having to spend more time carebearing it up they will tire and wear out rather quickly. In other words, if you're primary enjoyment is PVP and you're now having to spend 80% of your time doing industry to support your PVP habit you won't last very long either. The harcore PVPers will probably be the first ones to go if they are having to spend more time doing activities they simply don't enjoy.

As a side note (this may not apply to you), but I find it amusing that the "hardcore elite" PVPers who criticize carebears for engaging in "insanely boring" activities are usually the ones to claim they will fill the void if industrialists and carebears were to dissappear from the game.

Successfully doinitwrong™ since 2006.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#178 - 2013-01-19 13:06:11 UTC
Corey Fumimasa wrote:

Actual industrialists would develop options to attack their opponents.



As an industialist I can safely say we have all the options that everyone else has when it comes to fighting. If you chose to ignore these options then you have only yourself to blame for your lack of options.
Whitehound
#179 - 2013-01-19 13:11:52 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Corey Fumimasa wrote:

Actual industrialists would develop options to attack their opponents.



As an industialist I can safely say we have all the options that everyone else has when it comes to fighting. If you chose to ignore these options then you have only yourself to blame for your lack of options.

You are not an industrialist. Your a Goon and one of Bat Country and you gank freighters.

You now want everyone else believe that when you talk of "we" that you are now a carebear?

You are here only to cause drama. What's new about that?

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
Dave Stark
#180 - 2013-01-19 13:15:37 UTC
Whitehound wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Corey Fumimasa wrote:

Actual industrialists would develop options to attack their opponents.



As an industialist I can safely say we have all the options that everyone else has when it comes to fighting. If you chose to ignore these options then you have only yourself to blame for your lack of options.

You are not an industrialist. Your a Goon and one of Bat Country and you gank freighters.

You now want everyone else believe that when you talk of "we" that you are now a carebear?

You are here only to cause drama. What's new about that?


systematically ignoring the fact that you're wrong, and then taking issue with the character itself doesn't mean you win the argument.

just so you know.