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How is the Omen rebalanced
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Torrin Vakarian
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#1 - 2013-01-19 12:17:36 UTC
See I rarely get to play eve and even rarer when i get to do pvp. The omen has a special place in my heart i dont know why but it does. Back in inferno and crucible whenever i used the omen i had two major problems. it was too damn slow to catch anything and its capacitor drained faster than a jews bank account on tax day. i also had problems with dps as well. that could be because my guy is mostly trained in indie so im not to worried about it, I also had a hard time tanking it without out throwing on a crap ton of plating on it. im curious as to how she fly with the newest release. and is it actually usable/ can do anything. i know back in the other expansions the maller was the go to cruiser for amarr. all replys welcome
W0lf Crendraven
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#2 - 2013-01-19 12:42:20 UTC
Pretty much the best kiting t1 cruiser nowadays. Cap life is still terrible (but all kiting t1 cruisers are terrible with cap, and its on of the best there) but long enough to kill lots of stuff. The plated one seems to be outshined by the maller.
Mizhir
Devara Biotech
#3 - 2013-01-19 13:16:41 UTC
The Omen is pretty badass at the moment. I am actually starting to crosstrain to amarr because of it. It can be fit as a great kiting ship but it is also a fantastic brawler.

Jester made a good blogpost: http://jestertrek.blogspot.dk/2012/12/fit-of-week-retribution-omen.html

And I have tried to explain the RVB lemmings to fly omen (using the same fit as Jester's) instead of maller:

Quote:

Armor Omen
Despite being an attack cruiser the omen is actually a quite good brawler and is a great ship for armor fleets. "But Miz, isn't the maller a better ship for fleets? It got a nice tank" one of you lemmings might ask me. And for that I have a few answers: The maller can fit a good tank, but it does still suffer from low dps. And the large tank doesn't benefit you when the rest of your fleet has already been cleared. The Omen mix well with other armor t1 cruisers and is faster than the maller. And once you see the potential pain an omen can deliver you will never go back. In order for a Maller to deal the same dps as an Omen it needs 3 heatsinks, which means the tank advantage will be diminishing. And lastly, the Omen doesn't suffer that much from cap problems, so it frees up the mid for something else.

So lets take a look at the fit:


[Omen, 1600 brawler]
Damage Control II
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II

Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I
X5 Prototype Engine Enervator
J5b Phased Prototype Warp Scrambler I

Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M
Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M
Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M
Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M
Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M

Medium Ancillary Current Router I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I

Hammerhead II x3
Hobgoblin II x2

Is 1% over on cpu, either use an implant or downgrade the DCU to a meta or a EANM to a ANM.
This is a brawler fit, hence the scram.

487 dps (539 heated) with INMF 6.8 + 3.8 range
527 dps (586 heated) with Conflag 6.8 + 3.8 range (can shoot for about 5 min before capping out)
415 dps (457 heated) with Scorch 20 + 3.8 range

267 m/s, 1557 m/s with MWD (2202 heated)
18 min of cap without MWD, 1min 31s with MWD (both with MF loaded)

36,010EHP (75.1, 67.6, 62.6, 60.1 resist)

If you got logi support it is worth replacing the armor rigs with exp and kin resist rigs.

If your fleet has enough webs, you can replace the web with a small cap booster. It allows you to permarun everything with MWD and Conflag (using both simultaneously will be stupid since the MWD mess with the tracking) and it fixes the cpu problem.

This is a ship that can scale really well with player skills. The instant ammo switch allows you to really benefit from the 3 types of ammo. If your target is far away you can burn them down with scorch until you are in range. With good manual piloting (or if the target is double webbed and you sit still) you can really benefit from the high dps of conflag (you will outdps a standard 1600mm plated thorax). Otherwise just use INMF. Manageing your ammo will allow you to gain near max potential dps from it, but be aware of tracking. It is the biggest drawback and your own orbit can easily break it. If you dont have a cap booster you can get a huge benefit from micro manageing the capacitor.

It seems like a very fun ship and I will definitely try it out once I got the skills for it.

So all our laser lovers. Park our mallers in the back of your hangar and embrace the face meltage of the omen.

❤️️💛💚💙💜
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#4 - 2013-01-19 13:29:34 UTC
If majority of T1 attributes are carried up the chain .. Zealot and Nomen will be monsters .. cap unstable as hell but wielding a stick bigger than John Holmes'.

Brawling fits with enough cap to function under a med neut will probably serve you best as kiting is so popular that 99% of the people you meet will expect you to die when sneezed at in close range .. surprise is half the battle in frig/cruiser fights as the dps/EHP ratio is so high.

Personally getting together different configs to see how one might squeeze the last juice out of it.
Moonasha
Orcses and Goblinz
#5 - 2013-01-20 13:19:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Moonasha
People always tell me it's a 'kite ship', which I think is silly since Amarr is supposed to have armor plates, drones, neuts, and TD in their design philosophy. But if that were the case, why doesn't it have a speed bonus or something?

Whenever I try to fit it, it just comes out exactly like the Maller, but with 10k less EHP, and a tiny bit more dps. Meh. I guess the only thing about it that's better than the maller is it's a bit more mobile.

I guess it's cheaper too, but when you T2 fit your ship, 4 mil or so is nothing
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#6 - 2013-01-20 13:29:30 UTC
Omen and maller are still pretty ****.


Sorry.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Rynnik
Evasion Gaming
The Ancients.
#7 - 2013-01-20 15:09:03 UTC
Mizhir wrote:

[Omen, 1600 brawler]
Damage Control II
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II

Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I
X5 Prototype Engine Enervator
J5b Phased Prototype Warp Scrambler I

Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M
Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M
Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M
Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M
Focused Medium Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M

Medium Ancillary Current Router I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I

Hammerhead II x3
Hobgoblin II x2

So all our laser lovers. Park our mallers in the back of your hangar and embrace the face meltage of the omen.


The thing about the Maller is that it can get identical tank out of 3 lows and 1 trimark, versus the 4 lows and 2 trimarks of your fit. You can do a LOT with an extra rig and an extra low including but not limited to more tank, more DPS, more cap stability, etc. The only advantage the armour Omen will always have over the armour Maller is speed (unless you wanted to use that spare low for an ODI - which of course no one would do). All things considered the Maller is a better T1 armour brawler cruiser than the Omen (unsurprisingly) and if you decide the amount of tank you have on the omen is appropriate than scale the Maller to that and then explore what else you can do with it.
W0lf Crendraven
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#8 - 2013-01-20 19:01:28 UTC
Moonasha wrote:
People always tell me it's a 'kite ship', which I think is silly since Amarr is supposed to have armor plates, drones, neuts, and TD in their design philosophy. But if that were the case, why doesn't it have a speed bonus or something?

Whenever I try to fit it, it just comes out exactly like the Maller, but with 10k less EHP, and a tiny bit more dps. Meh. I guess the only thing about it that's better than the maller is it's a bit more mobile.

I guess it's cheaper too, but when you T2 fit your ship, 4 mil or so is nothing


Slicer, cynabal, machariel all are ships that are viable kiters yet they dont have a speed bonus. Omen is a kiter, for brawling take a maller!
Mizhir
Devara Biotech
#9 - 2013-01-20 19:48:35 UTC
Rynnik wrote:

The thing about the Maller is that it can get identical tank out of 3 lows and 1 trimark, versus the 4 lows and 2 trimarks of your fit. You can do a LOT with an extra rig and an extra low including but not limited to more tank, more DPS, more cap stability, etc. The only advantage the armour Omen will always have over the armour Maller is speed (unless you wanted to use that spare low for an ODI - which of course no one would do). All things considered the Maller is a better T1 armour brawler cruiser than the Omen (unsurprisingly) and if you decide the amount of tank you have on the omen is appropriate than scale the Maller to that and then explore what else you can do with it.


But, if you spend that extra low and rig for dps, the omen will still outdps the maller (487 against 441 with INMF). The omen still got better cap, and for shorter engagements it doesn't need a cap booster (and an 3/2 fit augorer can easily cap up a bunch of omens) so it will free up a mid if the fleet lacks tackle. Dont underestimate speed. For smallscale pvp, speed is vital but for larger slugfests it is still a big bonus since you can get in range and apply dps faster. Yes, scorch has long range, but INMF still does more dmg when you get up close. And since lasers has instant ammo swap, you can take advantage of that.

And despite that the maller has a potential to deal ok dmg, I still see more brick mallers than dps ones in RVB.

❤️️💛💚💙💜
Rynnik
Evasion Gaming
The Ancients.
#10 - 2013-01-20 20:52:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Rynnik
Mizhir wrote:

But, if you spend that extra low and rig for dps, the omen will still outdps the maller (487 against 441 with INMF). The omen still got better cap, and for shorter engagements it doesn't need a cap booster (and an 3/2 fit augorer can easily cap up a bunch of omens) so it will free up a mid if the fleet lacks tackle. Dont underestimate speed. For smallscale pvp, speed is vital but for larger slugfests it is still a big bonus since you can get in range and apply dps faster. Yes, scorch has long range, but INMF still does more dmg when you get up close. And since lasers has instant ammo swap, you can take advantage of that.

And despite that the maller has a potential to deal ok dmg, I still see more brick mallers than dps ones in RVB.


Maller does get more gun DPS than the fit you posted if you use that extra low for an RCU II. Blink

[Maller, Brawler]
Damage Control II
1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Reactor Control Unit II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II

Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I
X5 Prototype Engine Enervator
J5b Phased Prototype Warp Scrambler I

Heavy Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M
Heavy Pulse Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M

Medium Processor Overclocking Unit I
Medium Energy Discharge Elutriation I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I

I would never underestimate speed but at the same time it isn't much of a factor in comparing these two ships in much the same way that the idea of using the 'extra' low on the Maller for an ODI (which makes it faster than the Omen) is just a bit silly.

If we are talking real usage rather than theory crafting, I personally wouldn't fly the Maller or the Omen planning to engage in INM range without a cap booster. I fly too many neuting ships and if there isn't a higher priority target in range of my neuts (like Logi or EWAR) I will always choose a laser ship to neut - you are just too cap vulnerable in any sort of longer engagement in either hull. But you can certainly, reasonably fit equivalent tackle on the Maller if that is more important in the particular scenario.

Don't get me wrong. They are both good, perfectly functional ships. What really pushes the argument in the favour of the Maller for me though is exactly what you say: "I still see more brick mallers than dps ones in..." When you can get the same DPS out of a platform as an FC I would rather have my fleet in the one with the better reputation tank even if the effective tank is the same! Especially when you can be in the same hull with 150k EHP calling the fight while your fleet can be doing nearly 500 DPS in a different fit.

From what you are describing I am curious if you have played with the dual-web armour vexor - it sounds like almost exactly what you seem to want the omen to do if you happen to be cross trained.
bigboy boss
Doomheim
#11 - 2013-01-20 21:03:02 UTC
If only it had better cap life it would be a very very nice ship.

Currently its awesome for about a minute until it runs out of cap and you die / need to warp off.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#12 - 2013-01-21 00:49:59 UTC
Jester's blog post hypes the Omen way more than it deserves. It's nothing like the Zealot because it lacks the optimal bonus.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#13 - 2013-01-21 11:49:41 UTC
W0lf Crendraven wrote:
Slicer, cynabal, machariel all are ships that are viable kiters yet they dont have a speed bonus.

That is because speed bonus is useless when you can just build-in it into basic hull stats. And ships you've listed definitely have good base mobility stats.

Future of T3 cruisers - multi-tool they aspired to be instead of sledgehammer they have become
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#14 - 2013-01-21 11:56:19 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Jester's blog post hypes the Omen way more than it deserves. It's nothing like the Zealot because it lacks the optimal bonus.

-Liang




I really don't get how many people think its a good ship..

I mean its better than it was but its still gimpy as all ****.

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Klown Walk
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#15 - 2013-01-21 11:58:52 UTC
Never found a fit that I like on the Omen.
ChromeStriker
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#16 - 2013-01-21 12:14:10 UTC
Cap stable is a lie!!

No Worries
Denuo Secus
#17 - 2013-01-21 12:20:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Denuo Secus
Kiting Omen is nice and all...as long as nothing goes wrong. Hard mode kiting imho, zero margin of error. It does a lot of damage at nice ranges. But is very vulnerable as soon as caught by a simple frig.
Torrin Vakarian
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#18 - 2013-01-22 16:47:13 UTC
Now im quite curious what is kiting? See i dont actually have a pc or internet so i rarely get to play EVE xD i know crazy right. I'm working on getting a job but its hard.
Mizhir
Devara Biotech
#19 - 2013-01-22 16:58:11 UTC
Torrin Vakarian wrote:
Now im quite curious what is kiting? See i dont actually have a pc or internet so i rarely get to play EVE xD i know crazy right. I'm working on getting a job but its hard.

Using your speed and range to stay out of the enemy's effective range and slowly kill him.

❤️️💛💚💙💜
Torrin Vakarian
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#20 - 2013-01-22 17:00:47 UTC
Mizhir wrote:
Torrin Vakarian wrote:
Now im quite curious what is kiting? See i dont actually have a pc or internet so i rarely get to play EVE xD i know crazy right. I'm working on getting a job but its hard.

Using your speed and range to stay out of the enemy's effective range and slowly kill him.


Can a Omen sacrifice defense to dish out lots of dps or are amarr ships just not capable of this?
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