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Where would EVE Online be....
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Aza Ebanu
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1 - 2013-01-19 06:26:49 UTC
Without gatecamps? I am convinced that this game is dependent on gate camps. Unfortunately if you want to find a fight you have to be on a gate camp. WH space has delayed local so you can surprise someone. So where would EVE Online be if one could not camp a gate? Is it a bad game design if most fights must take place at the gates?
Surfin's PlunderBunny
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#2 - 2013-01-19 06:30:43 UTC
You don't have to gatecamp... I've been in plenty fights on stations or in belts. It's just that's where other people have to enter the system from so it's a logical place to sit and wait

"Little ginger moron" ~David Hasselhoff 

Want to see what Surf is training or how little isk Surf has?  http://eveboard.com/pilot/Surfin%27s_PlunderBunny
Some Rando
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2013-01-19 06:35:31 UTC
Gates provide convenient chokepoints where players meet; FW plexes and other static places provide similar meeting points. Most fights happen on gates because most players travel, so I wouldn't exactly say it's game design that causes fights to happen at gates. Rather, it happens organically. Gates are probably the most common point in a system to find other players.

CCP has no sense of humour.
Aza Ebanu
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#4 - 2013-01-19 07:04:47 UTC
Some Rando wrote:
Gates provide convenient chokepoints where players meet; FW plexes and other static places provide similar meeting points. Most fights happen on gates because most players travel, so I wouldn't exactly say it's game design that causes fights to happen at gates. Rather, it happens organically. Gates are probably the most common point in a system to find other players.

You're probably right, but imagine if gate guns worked like concord weapons, and EVE returned to the way it was before warp bubbles.... Would there be as many ships destroyed?
Karrl Tian
Doomheim
#5 - 2013-01-19 07:10:03 UTC
Aza Ebanu wrote:
Some Rando wrote:
Gates provide convenient chokepoints where players meet; FW plexes and other static places provide similar meeting points. Most fights happen on gates because most players travel, so I wouldn't exactly say it's game design that causes fights to happen at gates. Rather, it happens organically. Gates are probably the most common point in a system to find other players.

You're probably right, but imagine if gate guns worked like concord weapons, and EVE returned to the way it was before warp bubbles.... Would there be as many ships destroyed?


Before warp bubbles there were no gate guns---or warp to zero (long story). Hiding behind a gate let's you surprise people since otherwise you have to try to narrow down, warp to and point/scram a target all while you're revealed to them in local.
Aza Ebanu
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#6 - 2013-01-19 07:11:53 UTC
Karrl Tian wrote:
Aza Ebanu wrote:
Some Rando wrote:
Gates provide convenient chokepoints where players meet; FW plexes and other static places provide similar meeting points. Most fights happen on gates because most players travel, so I wouldn't exactly say it's game design that causes fights to happen at gates. Rather, it happens organically. Gates are probably the most common point in a system to find other players.

You're probably right, but imagine if gate guns worked like concord weapons, and EVE returned to the way it was before warp bubbles.... Would there be as many ships destroyed?


Before warp bubbles there were no gate guns---or warp to zero (long story). Hiding behind a gate let's you surprise people since otherwise you have to try to narrow down, warp to and point/scram a target all while you're revealed to them in local.

Would that be a bad thing?
Karrl Tian
Doomheim
#7 - 2013-01-19 07:22:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Karrl Tian
Aza Ebanu wrote:
Karrl Tian wrote:
Aza Ebanu wrote:
Some Rando wrote:
Gates provide convenient chokepoints where players meet; FW plexes and other static places provide similar meeting points. Most fights happen on gates because most players travel, so I wouldn't exactly say it's game design that causes fights to happen at gates. Rather, it happens organically. Gates are probably the most common point in a system to find other players.

You're probably right, but imagine if gate guns worked like concord weapons, and EVE returned to the way it was before warp bubbles.... Would there be as many ships destroyed?


Before warp bubbles there were no gate guns---or warp to zero (long story). Hiding behind a gate let's you surprise people since otherwise you have to try to narrow down, warp to and point/scram a target all while you're revealed to them in local.

Would that be a bad thing?


Having no gate guns? No. Without warp bubbles lowsec is still cake compared to null. As for being tackled by frigates, outlaw players deal with that on a daily basis anyway.
ACE McFACE
Dirt 'n' Glitter
Local Is Primary
#8 - 2013-01-19 07:31:29 UTC
Aza Ebanu wrote:
Without gatecamps? I am convinced that this game is dependent on gate camps. Unfortunately if you want to find a fight you have to be on a gate camp. WH space has delayed local so you can surprise someone. So where would EVE Online be if one could not camp a gate? Is it a bad game design if most fights must take place at the gates?

Wow, I didn't realise that a lot of my fights don't actually count because they weren't on a gate

Now, more than ever, we need a dislike button.
Aza Ebanu
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#9 - 2013-01-19 07:40:31 UTC
ACE McFACE wrote:
Aza Ebanu wrote:
Without gatecamps? I am convinced that this game is dependent on gate camps. Unfortunately if you want to find a fight you have to be on a gate camp. WH space has delayed local so you can surprise someone. So where would EVE Online be if one could not camp a gate? Is it a bad game design if most fights must take place at the gates?

Wow, I didn't realise that a lot of my fights don't actually count because they weren't on a gate

How are you defining a lot?
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#10 - 2013-01-19 09:07:47 UTC  |  Edited by: RubyPorto
Aza Ebanu wrote:
Karrl Tian wrote:
Before warp bubbles there were no gate guns---or warp to zero (long story). Hiding behind a gate let's you surprise people since otherwise you have to try to narrow down, warp to and point/scram a target all while you're revealed to them in local.

Would that be a bad thing?


Only if you like the sever. The lack of WTZ meant that people had a bookmark 15km past each gate/station from every other gate/station in that system for every system (most people bought packs of them). Especially in LS (great story from early GSF history: they sold WTZ BM packs that were accurate, except one bookmark, which led right to a deathstar POS.).

All those bookmarks (and the process of copying them) were doing horrible things to the server, so CCP introduced WTZ to obviate the need for people to have thousands of bookmarks.


Anyway, without fighting available on gates, Freighters would ply their trade right through Rancer in perfect safety.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Aza Ebanu
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#11 - 2013-01-19 19:44:36 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
Aza Ebanu wrote:
Karrl Tian wrote:
Before warp bubbles there were no gate guns---or warp to zero (long story). Hiding behind a gate let's you surprise people since otherwise you have to try to narrow down, warp to and point/scram a target all while you're revealed to them in local.

Would that be a bad thing?


Only if you like the sever. The lack of WTZ meant that people had a bookmark 15km past each gate/station from every other gate/station in that system for every system (most people bought packs of them). Especially in LS (great story from early GSF history: they sold WTZ BM packs that were accurate, except one bookmark, which led right to a deathstar POS.).

All those bookmarks (and the process of copying them) were doing horrible things to the server, so CCP introduced WTZ to obviate the need for people to have thousands of bookmarks.


Anyway, without fighting available on gates, Freighters would ply their trade right through Rancer in perfect safety.


Yeah I remember that was the problem, but without the ability to camp a gate would the game cease to have combat - PVP?
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#12 - 2013-01-19 19:46:45 UTC  |  Edited by: RubyPorto
Aza Ebanu wrote:
Yeah I remember that was the problem, but without the ability to camp a gate would the game cease to have combat - PVP?


No, but it would be very much optional. Like my example of Freighters cruising through Rancer in near-total safety.


Besides, some of my favorite fights started by jumping into someone else's gatecamp (including a very nice Chimera kill that involved a 3 way fight, because never not gate camp with Carriers.).

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Nexus Day
Lustrevik Trade and Travel Bureau
#13 - 2013-01-19 19:51:19 UTC
Some Rando wrote:
Gates provide convenient chokepoints where players meet; FW plexes and other static places provide similar meeting points. Most fights happen on gates because most players travel, so I wouldn't exactly say it's game design that causes fights to happen at gates. Rather, it happens organically. Gates are probably the most common point in a system to find other players.

You are so right again. CCP get rid of D-scan, it isn't needed.

Gate camps happen because:

a) Players are lazy. I say get rid of gates and make people work for their food.

b) They usually consist of multiples. Leet PvPers don't want a challenge, they want a killmail.

c) Gates protect the campers more then they protect the traveller.

Luckily it takes very little time to figure out how to avoid gate camps.
Ptraci
3 R Corporation
#14 - 2013-01-19 19:54:42 UTC
Aza Ebanu wrote:
Without gatecamps? I am convinced that this game is dependent on gate camps. Unfortunately if you want to find a fight you have to be on a gate camp. WH space has delayed local so you can surprise someone. So where would EVE Online be if one could not camp a gate? Is it a bad game design if most fights must take place at the gates?


Posting in yet another stealth remove local thread.

Hey if you want to play D-Scan Online, fair enough. I don't.
Gillia Winddancer
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#15 - 2013-01-19 20:00:59 UTC
What EVE lacks in this regard is:

A: Free flight during warp where you can alter course mid-warp, engage and fly in warp without a set destination - at the cost of cap energy of course.

B: A more advanced system where you can chase and catch ships whilst in warp. Current bubbles are beyond insufficient for this.

It would not eliminate location specific engagements entirely but it would definitely reduce it as well as making system size a somewhat more important factor.

There is a reason for why the current system is purely from A to B, but this IMO is also quite outdated by now.
Gillia Winddancer
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#16 - 2013-01-19 20:02:11 UTC
Ptraci wrote:
Aza Ebanu wrote:
Without gatecamps? I am convinced that this game is dependent on gate camps. Unfortunately if you want to find a fight you have to be on a gate camp. WH space has delayed local so you can surprise someone. So where would EVE Online be if one could not camp a gate? Is it a bad game design if most fights must take place at the gates?


Posting in yet another stealth remove local thread.

Hey if you want to play D-Scan Online, fair enough. I don't.


And yes, removing local is always something that the wiser of us approve of. And instead have a d-scanner that is much more advanced and intuitive than the current RSI joke of today.
Aza Ebanu
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#17 - 2013-01-19 20:20:49 UTC
Ptraci wrote:
Aza Ebanu wrote:
Without gatecamps? I am convinced that this game is dependent on gate camps. Unfortunately if you want to find a fight you have to be on a gate camp. WH space has delayed local so you can surprise someone. So where would EVE Online be if one could not camp a gate? Is it a bad game design if most fights must take place at the gates?


Posting in yet another stealth remove local thread.

Hey if you want to play D-Scan Online, fair enough. I don't.

No I dont think CCP should remove local. I don't know why that is even an issue in this game. I'm asking: "would PVP exist if there were no more gatecamps?" D-scan? is PVP too hard to get then? if you have to D scan to get a fight thats not on a gate?
Aza Ebanu
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#18 - 2013-01-19 20:22:24 UTC
Gillia Winddancer wrote:
What EVE lacks in this regard is:

A: Free flight during warp where you can alter course mid-warp, engage and fly in warp without a set destination - at the cost of cap energy of course.

B: A more advanced system where you can chase and catch ships whilst in warp. Current bubbles are beyond insufficient for this.

It would not eliminate location specific engagements entirely but it would definitely reduce it as well as making system size a somewhat more important factor.

There is a reason for why the current system is purely from A to B, but this IMO is also quite outdated by now.

Thank you for your well thought out response. I feel an addition like what you mention here is the next step CCP needs to take to improve the dated combat system.
Some Rando
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#19 - 2013-01-19 20:45:42 UTC
Aza Ebanu wrote:
I'm asking: "would PVP exist if there were no more gatecamps?"

Of course it would, since not all fights happen on gates now.

CCP has no sense of humour.
EvEa Deva
Doomheim
#20 - 2013-01-19 21:11:10 UTC
Had a few fights at the sun or stars ( that we bubbled because everyone warps too it )
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