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Skill reallocation Option needs to finally be added and why
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Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#541 - 2013-01-18 01:50:30 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:
Malcorian Vandsteidt wrote:
Apostrof Ahashion wrote:
You know what, if there were ever to be a referendum or public vote on this, im gonna +1 it.

Ppl who propose this bullsh1t are obviously too stupid to see how this would magically create sp out of nothing, and wont even know how to exploit it. Only a matter of time they start bitch1ng again to stop remaps in posts filled with exclamation marks and capital letters.

I could use that month or two to gain some free sp, and reading their bitch1ing on the forums about it could be a good laugh for a couple of days.


It would take you 4 years to create any extra xp and it would be a negligible amount by then, Not to mention a waste of time. And as I stated before if this is actually an issue tweaks can be made to the skill system in order to prevent it.

Not a huge deal.


no, it would take you 4 years to make a negligible amount of extra SP. every year, everyone but the noobs will be re-allocating SP's trained at maximum speed with less than half the currently required implants and putting them wherever the hell they like.


That would be a terrible TERRIBLE idea.

Sure, you wouldn't have to ever need to change your neural remap, but look at the consequences.

If you're taking a year to train for a Marauder, then every so often you'll hit certain mile stones.

Frigs, t2 frig weapons, cruisers, t2 cruiser weapons, battlecruisers, t2 tank if you can't already, battleships, t2 bs weapons, Marauders.

There are also other related skills along the way. The golem is the only one that wouldn't require the mile stones of having t2 small and medium weapon systems.

So, lets say you remap to train...I don't know...engineering skills.

Well, one thing is for sure and this is that there is at least one skill in every class of skills that you're going to need/want, so removing SP from that skill would be redundant.
However, in doing this you're not able to be involved in these mile stones.

You're not going to be flying frigs while waiting on cruisers, you won't be flying cruisers waiting on battlecruisers, battlecruisers waiting on battleships, and battleships waiting on marauders.

You'll be able to enjoy sitting on your @ss with nothing to do while you wait on all that sp to train and be able to use a reallocation.

So, why not just remap in a way to train those specific skills quicker?

Now, if you're already flying a ship you're happy with for another race, then why not just remap for the skills you wish to train and focus them?

To me it sounds ******** to train skills (some of which you need/want) for a year while you are introduced to no new capabilities and then transfer them all at once.

If you'd like to use this method the good for you, but while you're unable to play cause you don't have any ship skills, I'll be flying around in pretty new space ships...

Mag's wrote:

You on the other hand, should stop posting.


Lol. Good times.

Good to see you have maintained your same stand on this topic.

Which is basically no "cause I said no" and "no, cause you're dumb and I don't like you"
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#542 - 2013-01-18 02:13:11 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:

If you'd like to use this method the good for you, but while you're unable to play cause you don't have any ship skills, I'll be flying around in pretty new space ships...


This was exactly the reasoning people used for keeping learning skills.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Dolorous Tremmens
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#543 - 2013-01-18 04:01:58 UTC
Isn't this thread a bit of a troll-fest? after all its in the "common ideas" sticky

Get some Eve. Make it yours.
Sean Parisi
Blackrise Vanguard
#544 - 2013-01-18 05:45:55 UTC
Dolorous Tremmens wrote:
Isn't this thread a bit of a troll-fest? after all its in the "common ideas" sticky


That's why a good o'l thread burning is necessary.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#545 - 2013-01-18 06:59:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Mag's
Joe Risalo wrote:
Mag's wrote:

You on the other hand, should stop posting.


Lol. Good times.

Good to see you have maintained your same stand on this topic.

Which is basically no "cause I said no" and "no, cause you're dumb and I don't like you"
No not really, I say stop because you're simply bad at it. No logic, awful analogies. Or just plain bad. Like this one.

Then we have your admission, that you were in game for almost 2 years before knowing about Capitals and high sec. Oh dear.

Your complete misunderstanding of what is Pay2Win.
And here, I mean A Battlecruiser hahaha. Yea we don't get those in game already, except it's another failed analogy (surprise) because yours is a Pirate one and not available through normal game play. Lol You then go on to talk about soccer, but that just plain embarrassing. So let's move on.

A Plex, is a Plex, is a Plex. It gives gametime, repeat it for the children. Gametime. There you go.

Yes it can be swapped for ISK, but only ISK already in the game and ISK that is available through normal game play. ISK isn't magically created for this and this is why Eve is also not Free2Play. Because someone PAID for that Plex with real life cash. You know, for 30 days Gametime. Even though it was swapped for ISK, the gametime is still live. Do you remember that? You know the part someone paid for? Gametime? Good good, now we'll move on.

Then we have your Tengu ROFL. Yea damn those Tengu's not letting you know about Hybrids. But, but wait, you have an answer. Lasers. You go girl. Lol

But you know what, even though your posting is bad, (One could even say delusional, but I digress.) I've changed my mind and you should carry on posting. Simply because making this post, had me laughing so much. Thanks for that. Lol

Edit: Had to change a few things sorry, I have tears running down my face here. Lol

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#546 - 2013-01-18 10:15:55 UTC
Tbh, if he already has skills for Tengu it doesn't take long to train for Legion.

Then he would have his lazor T3!
Karig'Ano Keikira
Tax Cheaters
#547 - 2013-01-18 10:32:47 UTC
from someone who would definitely benefit (skill points and allocation wise) from extra sp or sp allocation:
- hell no!, add skill reallocation and you destroy one of basic things EVE stands for
- personally I haven't seen any benefit from skill / talent / whatever reallocation in any MMO I have played so far, it generates lot of problems with 0 (!) benefits on the long run
Sean Parisi
Blackrise Vanguard
#548 - 2013-01-18 11:11:21 UTC
Mr. Gorbachev; Tear down this thread!
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#549 - 2013-01-18 13:27:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Daichi Yamato
Joe Risalo wrote:
general fail


ur touching on how the idea sucks for noobs but is amazing for vets.
the noobs have to train a little of everything to develope their abilities, just as ur example pointed out, and having one remap a year is a decent constraint.

however,

i can already fly enough ships in high sec to get me by doing PvP and missioning, and can afford to wait a year before developiong my skills. all i have to do is set my attributes to max perception and willpower and train T2 and capital skills. i only have to buy +5 perception and willpower implants to max my training time rather than for all attributes.

once the time for respec comes i take all those SP's out of caps and T2's i'm not using and i can put them anywhere i want, like indy, PI, social, trading, drones and all the other trees that have messed up attribute requirements. i can become an over night master trader without an ounce of charisma, or a mining beast without any memory. thus there is no point in any attributes and vets have a huge advantage over noobs who cannot afford to save up SP's for a year.

edit - i forgot to mention, that once i've respecced, i just re-skill the exact same T2 and capital skills as before for a year and restart the whole process. even if u say that respeccing all the SP's out of a skill removes that skill and i have to re-buy it, all i have to do is respec it down to level 1, which is a minuscule fraction of the SP's.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Sedstr
#550 - 2013-01-18 13:42:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Sedstr
Was this a request for a one off reallocation because of the ship changes, or as a new feature?

I would support a one off SP reallocation if it was directly related to the CCP ship changes with severe restrictions.
Definitely not as an ongoing feature.

...
Mag's
Azn Empire
#551 - 2013-01-18 13:55:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Mag's
Sedstr wrote:
Was this a request for a one off reallocation because of the ship changes, or as a new feature?

I would support a one off SP reallocation if it was directly related to the CCP ship changes with severe restrictions.
Definitely not as an ongoing feature.
So because they rebalance a ship, you then think you deserve that SP to be moved?

What about the time you've already used that ship and that SP? Why can't you still use that ship?
You see no matter what argument is tried in an attempt to justify this idea, none are based on a problem that actually needs to be solved.

This is because they solved the problem, when they rebalanced the ship. What you're asking for is the SP back, that you used when you abused the OP nature of that ship.

So in fact you're asking for a solution, to a solution. Not a problem.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#552 - 2013-01-18 17:40:47 UTC
Mag's wrote:
Joe Risalo wrote:
Mag's wrote:

You on the other hand, should stop posting.


Lol. Good times.

Good to see you have maintained your same stand on this topic.

Which is basically no "cause I said no" and "no, cause you're dumb and I don't like you"
No not really, I say stop because you're simply bad at it. No logic, awful analogies. Or just plain bad. Like this one.

Then we have your admission, that you were in game for almost 2 years before knowing about Capitals and high sec. Oh dear.

Your complete misunderstanding of what is Pay2Win.
And here, I mean A Battlecruiser hahaha. Yea we don't get those in game already, except it's another failed analogy (surprise) because yours is a Pirate one and not available through normal game play. Lol You then go on to talk about soccer, but that just plain embarrassing. So let's move on.

A Plex, is a Plex, is a Plex. It gives gametime, repeat it for the children. Gametime. There you go.

Yes it can be swapped for ISK, but only ISK already in the game and ISK that is available through normal game play. ISK isn't magically created for this and this is why Eve is also not Free2Play. Because someone PAID for that Plex with real life cash. You know, for 30 days Gametime. Even though it was swapped for ISK, the gametime is still live. Do you remember that? You know the part someone paid for? Gametime? Good good, now we'll move on.

Then we have your Tengu ROFL. Yea damn those Tengu's not letting you know about Hybrids. But, but wait, you have an answer. Lasers. You go girl. Lol

But you know what, even though your posting is bad, (One could even say delusional, but I digress.) I've changed my mind and you should carry on posting. Simply because making this post, had me laughing so much. Thanks for that. Lol

Edit: Had to change a few things sorry, I have tears running down my face here. Lol


Wow, thank you for proving my point and making a post that is the very definition of trolling...

You even went as far as trolling posts that I've made on other threads that have nothing to do with this one.

As far as hyrids on a tengu.. oops, wasn't thinking.

As far as the rest of those posts, it's your personal opinion.

Much like I feel every post YOU have made are fail and have contributed NOTHING to the conversation.

You have done two things.
You have beaten on the backs of those defending this idea with personal attacks.
And, you have been riding on the backs of those whom have actually contributed a strong counter argument.

So yeah, your direct personal attack towards my comments, and expecially those not even on this thread, are worth no merit and should thus be ignored by everyone.
Istvann
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#553 - 2013-01-18 18:08:42 UTC
sYnc Vir wrote:
Malcorian Vandsteidt wrote:
sYnc Vir wrote:
I'm for a skill remap option, but only under a couple of terms.

Its a 1 toon 1 time thing.
its only once the re-balance has been finished.
It gives you all you skill points back.
It destroys all your extra clones due to skill loss.
You're required to re-buy all your skill books,
It cost a plex to start.
its only available for 30 days after the re-balance then is gone forever.



I don't think you should have to re-buy any skill books, Your talking about billions and billions of ISK for some of us. And I am fine with this being set as once a year like the Attribute reskill.

Only once and gone forever will not work because battleships are next. and then capitals, and then something else, and then something else.

So this feature needs to be a repeating one.


Its called balance, wanna re-skill, fine. Cost you X amount to do.

It should maybe also insta put you -10 and give you a free open to all Kill Right for 30 Days from concord for using dirty dirty black market stuff.


I agree, if this were implemented, it should come at a great cost, but maybe not to the extreme as the quotes above. A hybrid of the two I think. Some skillbooks are expensive...I say keep the books. Once a year? I can see that too. A plex to start? hmmm, maybe. Destroy extra clones? Thats a toughy. You could be losing a lot of isk in augments...but that could be part of the steep price. I have other thoughts too.

I am not sure if I would use it or not. I dont' even use the free stat maps we get now. I am living with my decisions long ago and making the best of them.

I do disagree with a poster above me saying auto cannon skills are useless if you fly a megathron, minmatar skills are useless if you fly Amarr, etc. I say to you sir....if you live in the USA and move to Germany....do you expect an instant wipe of your English skills and automatically expect to speak German? Doesn't happen that way. You continue to learn "new skills". I think that should be the same here too.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#554 - 2013-01-18 18:13:17 UTC
Malcorian Vandsteidt wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Malcorian Vandsteidt wrote:

Actually thats a bad anology as the problem you present is with the Cable company, Not the big screen Tv. So it is neither your fault or the Big Tvs. It's the cable companies. (And in my example CCP is the cable company)

In RL however if this did happen the cable company would in fact be legally responsible for not providing a service which you are paying them for, and would be required to refund you, or face legal prosecution (in the US anyway, I am not sure what country you are from). (No one is going to sue CCP though so this is Irrelevant) However the Analogy Isn't.

It still proves that CCP is responsible, Not you. As you are not psychic,a nd can not read the future there is no way you can know what CCP is going to change and there fore can not educate or prepare yourself for it.

You just have to suck it up and suffer with it. And it is an unnecessary suffering because it is not caused by players but rather by external forces.

THIS is what I am trying to change so you no longer HAVE to suck it up and Suffer with it.


It is not a perfect analogy, but its much more relevant than your "lets invoke emotions by bringing up mugging and ****" craptastic analogy.

Yes... CCP is the Cable company...
Yes... Your TV is the Skillpoints you have
Yes... The stream represents what you can do with those SP... you can fly a tengu that shoots heavy missiles to 100kms with excellent dps....

And yes... ultimately CCP is responsible for changing the stream format... altering what you can do with the TV/SP you have...

But... the cable company is NOT responsible for your previous purchase of that TV... even if you purchased it through them... You are responsible for buying it, and using it... Furthermore, with this analogy, the cable company does NOT make any promises that the stream will stay the same 6 months from now, or 1 year from now, just like CCP doesn't make any promises that the SP you have today will be of the same utility to you in the future.

You are NOT entitled to a new TV just because something changes... you are NOT entitled to a skillpoint redistribution because CCP rebalances ships..



No the service/stream the cable company provides would be the skill points actually, The tv would be my computer monitor. neither are related to the other. Your example is invalid.


It's my analogy, and the TV represents the skillpoints we have.... to prove the analogy invalid, you have to explain why my designations are invalid... you don't just get to change what represents what in my analogy and then call it invalid... that's not how analogies work....

To put it another way... I could say, I think in your robbed/molested in a dark alley analogy CCP is the guy getting mugged, rather than the mugger, and so the analogy doesn't fit and hence it's invalid... But to do so is just dumb response, because that's not how you meant the analogy... Just like I clearly stated what represents what in my analogy... If you don't understand the nuances of it, then ask... but don't be dumb!
Mag's
Azn Empire
#555 - 2013-01-18 21:47:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Mag's
Joe Risalo wrote:


Wow, thank you for proving my point and making a post that is the very definition of trolling...

You even went as far as trolling posts that I've made on other threads that have nothing to do with this one.

As far as hyrids on a tengu.. oops, wasn't thinking.

As far as the rest of those posts, it's your personal opinion.

Much like I feel every post YOU have made are fail and have contributed NOTHING to the conversation.

You have done two things.
You have beaten on the backs of those defending this idea with personal attacks.
And, you have been riding on the backs of those whom have actually contributed a strong counter argument.

So yeah, your direct personal attack towards my comments, and expecially those not even on this thread, are worth no merit and should thus be ignored by everyone.
You really shouldn't start something, you don't wish to have fired back at you. Sorry to upset you, but that's life. That wasn't trolling, that was indicating your awful logic and lack of any understanding on certain subjects. But even though I picked some arguments apart, you didn't respond and defend them. Why is that?

Shall we see where it started?

Blah blah blah, anything to argue. Where I'm lost in a world of make believe. I believe you'll find the whole point, is to argue against an idea you know to be bad. Whether the people you argue against, understand it or not.

Then I do an awful thing of cutting down a post of yours, to make a point. Here page 20, post 397. Not a direct personal attack, more an indication of the content.
But it seems you think I'm back in the habit of trolling. But you say it's a good thing. You even say "It's been a while since I've seen you contribute absolutely nothing", which was also nice. Because it must mean I contributed something. So nothing about what I said, you were just being nice?

I have to respond, but try to be as nice as you were.

You really should keep a tabs on what you post and the time line. You and the OP have been far and away more rude than anyone else in this thread. The first link in that post, shows exactly that. But when someone gives you a taste of your own medicine, you act all upset and hurt.

Also what comments of yours, do I include from other threads?

No posts were linked or talked about in that post, that are outside this thread. Reading and comprehension, seems also to be an issue you have. This is why you've so obviously failed to read the posts were I outlined EXACTLY why this is a bad idea. But it seems when we post logical and factual reason why this idea is bad, all you and your OP mate can say is, "that's personal opinion" only. Maybe because you cannot put an bad analogy to it, or argue logically against it. Who knows?

Direct personal attacks towards your comments? Not you, just your comments? What does that mean exactly?

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#556 - 2013-01-18 23:55:01 UTC
Mag's wrote:
word vomit



ya know...if you're soo unhappy with this thread, then stop reading it.

Is me who makes this thread continue, or is it you who has to argue against everything we say that makes the thread continue?

It's not 28 pages of everyone agreeing...

So, if it were just those of us that liked this idea, it would be half as long and probably have died off by now.



Oh, and just so you have a better understanding I found a nice little link for you.

http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/04/19/the-daily-grind-how-do-you-define-pay-to-win/

link wrote:

Game design in the free-to-play era is somewhat different from that of years past. No longer can devs concentrate solely on making a fun title; now they must also worry about getting a percentage of their userbase to actually pay for it.

Free-to-play makes it quite challenging to separate monetization decisions from game design decisions, and as a result, developers are understandably concerned about avoiding the dreaded pay-to-win stigma. Pay close attention to any interview or press release that talks about a title's business model and you're guaranteed to hear a dev (or executive) say something vaguely reassuring in terms of how his title's monetization scheme absolutely isn't pay-to-win.

The problem is that there is no agreed-upon definition of pay-to-win."Convenience" items are a good case in point. Some folks don't mind them, while others point out that they can make your character more powerful in less time, depending on the system. For today's early-morning discussion, we'd like to know your thoughts on pay-to-win. More specifically, how do you define it?

Every morning, the Massively bloggers probe the minds of their readers with deep, thought-provoking questions about that most serious of topics: massively online gaming. We crave your opinions, so grab your caffeinated beverage of choice and chime in on today's Daily Grind!


I underlined the important parts.

There is no agreed apon definition of "pay-to-win", therefore, any definition of the term is merely opinion.

HOwever, it goes on to state that some players feel convenience items are "pay-to-win".

A PLEX would fall under the catagory of a convenience item that allows your character to become more powerful in less time.

How so?

Well, buying plexes for the isk to buy a character makes you more powerful.

Buying plexes to get isk for attribute implants surely makes you more powerful, quicker.

Hell, it's Eve. Isk is a major part of being powerful, so transfering a plex for isk alone allows you to be more powerful.


So, you're buying an item with real cash that give the convenience of earning items much faster than someone who attempts to earn the isk the old school way.
And since there's not an actual agreed apon definition of "pay-to-win".

Right now PTW is entirely opinionated, and since this is the case, my opinion in the matter is not wrong.


As far as my suggestion of a once a year opportunity for an SP refund, well, your opinion that it will kill the game isn't wrong, however my opinion that it won't kill the game isn't wrong either.

Hell, if you wish to get logical in the matter, the closest comparison we have to use for this is the removal of learning skills.

Many players said it would kill the game, others said it would make like better.

Well, CCP did it anyway, and well. Is life better or worse?

I guess that's your opinion as well, but seeing as how you're still playing the game, I'm assuming it didn't kill Eve.



Opinions are like @ssholes, everyone has got one, and since both of these things are opinionated because we have no direct definition or proof in either cicumstance, then everything mentioned in this thread is nothing more than opinion and no one is wrong....

And if you try to argue that I'm wrong because neither of these two subjects are opinionated, then do me a favor and find proof cause i'm tired of hearing it.
Knorkor
Ministry of Silly Walk
#557 - 2013-01-19 00:14:25 UTC
What I would like to see is the option to remove one skill at a time with a cooldown of at least 1 year and a cost of at least 100 Million for a lvl 5 Skill, which comes down to 20 Million per level and the skill book should be lost.
This way some more money would go out of the system and a player could correct an earlier mistake and gain a small benefit from it.

For example, I'd like to get rid of Mining Drones Skill completely. It was mistake learning it, because Mining Drones are just utter nonsense in my eyes once you sit in a Hulk.

So this way I could correct this minor mistake and put the few SP to better use.


A one time per character all respec would be fine by me, but with great cost and really only time. I have something like 2 Billion in mind. It should NOT cost a PLEX though, only ISK that gets taken out of the system.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#558 - 2013-01-19 00:32:33 UTC
Knorkor wrote:
What I would like to see is the option to remove one skill at a time with a cooldown of at least 1 year and a cost of at least 100 Million for a lvl 5 Skill, which comes down to 20 Million per level and the skill book should be lost.
This way some more money would go out of the system and a player could correct an earlier mistake and gain a small benefit from it.

For example, I'd like to get rid of Mining Drones Skill completely. It was mistake learning it, because Mining Drones are just utter nonsense in my eyes once you sit in a Hulk.

So this way I could correct this minor mistake and put the few SP to better use.


A one time per character all respec would be fine by me, but with great cost and really only time. I have something like 2 Billion in mind. It should NOT cost a PLEX though, only ISK that gets taken out of the system.


I don't see how it is a mistake to have the mining drone skill...

Just because there are other skills you would rather have at this point doesn't make it a "mistake" to have.

IMO, this is like having your cake and eating it too.... you already benefited from the mining drone skill when you used to use mining drones... and now you want to "double dip" those SP into another area just because that skill is of low utility to you now.
Cheshire Katt
Pyramid Celestial
#559 - 2013-01-19 00:50:47 UTC
I like how you say that "All MMOs have this ability". Maybe you should think about that comment. That is part of the appeal of Eve Online. They break from the norm that most MMOs have. They are unique. We, the players, don't WANT to be every other MMO. We want to continue to adapt, learn to beat the system, and not make this another instant gratification game like WoW.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#560 - 2013-01-19 01:51:39 UTC
Cheshire Katt wrote:
I like how you say that "All MMOs have this ability". Maybe you should think about that comment. That is part of the appeal of Eve Online. They break from the norm that most MMOs have. They are unique. We, the players, don't WANT to be every other MMO. We want to continue to adapt, learn to beat the system, and not make this another instant gratification game like WoW.


yes

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs