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When people talk about PvP in EvE what do they mean?
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Ravnik
Infinate Horizon
#21 - 2013-01-18 09:54:42 UTC
Nexus Day wrote:
Certain people talk about EvE being a PvP game even though there is more action in hi-sec and on the markets than on the killboards. My question to them is what is PvP?

My understanding is that it stands for player versus player. This implies an interaction between the two parties. This would exclude:

- A bitter vet alphaing a noob in a starter area
-A gate camp
-A blob, well blobbing

There is no interaction in the above situations, it is a one way exchange with a predetermined outcome.

I think CCP has done a good job of working to eliminate one way exchanges and promote PvP. Yet everytime CCP acts to create two way exchanges you get leets bemoaning a nerf to PvP? It leads me to believe that certain people feel entitled to killmails without a challenge, reward with no risk.

So when people are asking for expanded PvP in EvE what are they really asking for?


I dont understand how there is no interaction in points 2 or 3. One would assume that a gate camp or blob would be attacking ships in low sec or null. This means you are knowingly going into an area where that gank is a possibility. It is therefore in your best interests to run with a scout, fleet, or use a fast ship. Look at the star map and do some research. see how many ship / pod kills there have been recently, how many jumps etc. All of this is interaction to prevent the possiblility of a pvp gank.

The light that burns twice as bright burns half as long - and you have burned so very, very brightly..........
Sura Sadiva
Entropic Tactical Crew
#22 - 2013-01-18 11:00:16 UTC
Nexus Day wrote:

My understanding is that it stands for player versus player. This implies an interaction between the two parties. This would exclude:

- A bitter vet alphaing a noob in a starter area
-A gate camp
-A blob, well blobbing

There is no interaction in the above situations, it is a one way exchange with a predetermined outcome.


There is intereaction even in your example, interaction doesn't mean fair duels, it's New Eden, not Camelot. Not only there's interaction but much more, there's player contents creation. And much more than 2 players only.

Example: a pirate ganking a miner.

What are they doing?

- The miner as target is creating game content for the pirate and his gameplay.
- The pirate is creating content for the miner, adding a risk/variable element to his gameplay (and, aso, making it more evaluable).

This is not only interaction (no matter if the fight was fair, consensual or whatever) but is also game content creation. And not only this, there's aslo a stealth interaction and content creation in this:

- Both, the pirate and the miner are creating game content for some industrialist, somewhere else, that will build a new retriver to replace the one just ganked. And other miners that will have to get and sell the minerals for it.... And so on...
Corey Fumimasa
CFM Salvage
#23 - 2013-01-18 12:16:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Corey Fumimasa
Nexus Day wrote:
Certain people talk about EvE being a PvP game even though there is more action in hi-sec and on the markets than on the killboards. My question to them is what is PvP?

My understanding is that it stands for player versus player. This implies an interaction between the two parties. This would exclude:

- A bitter vet alphaing a noob in a starter area
-A gate camp
-A blob, well blobbing

There is no interaction in the above situations, it is a one way exchange with a predetermined outcome.

I think CCP has done a good job of working to eliminate one way exchanges and promote PvP. Yet everytime CCP acts to create two way exchanges you get leets bemoaning a nerf to PvP? It leads me to believe that certain people feel entitled to killmails without a challenge, reward with no risk.

So when people are asking for expanded PvP in EvE what are they really asking for?


Markets tend to create more than they destroy. The current Eve dynamic is akin to riba which is the charging of interest. In this system the people charging "interest" in this case the bears, will inevitably have all the money.

I believe that when people want PvP in highsec they want destruction of that accumulated wealth so that further accumulation does not accelerate and thereby destroy the economy as a whole.
Whitehound
#24 - 2013-01-18 13:12:47 UTC
For some is PvP not more than an outlet. And just like we bring our real-life morals into EVE do we bring our real-life excitement and frustration, dreams and hopes into EVE, too.

The Player versus Player-interaction then needs to be seen as a Person versus Person-interaction, and with some people standing outside the sandbox and being unreachable.

For example, when someone comes home from school with a lot of homework given by his teachers, the parents making demands, the TV sucks, and so on, then they log into EVE and start shooting players for what seems as no good reason.

We let them do this, because we can.

Others play EVE to measure their intellectual abilities. This is what happens when players craft new fittings and experiment with new strategies.

Then there are those who desire accomplishments. Who build stuff and who get rich.

And more.

When these play styles come together then it can get weird. However, when the different play styles are being recognized by the players and their strengths are being combined does it lead to great alliances and epic battles.

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
Usagi Toshiro
Strategic Exploration and Development Corp
Silent Company
#25 - 2013-01-18 13:34:18 UTC
I'm inclined to agree with the OP regarding folks getting upset at changes that remove one way PVP encounters. The forum community seethes with impudent rage when this happens and I find it sad.

While sometimes an alpha strike is the order of the day, it shouldn't be what a majority of PVP is. PvP is player versus player not player violates player. That said, I believe that by clicking 'undock' you agree to the rules of the game which may include an alpha strike.

Trolls are like stray cats. If you feed them they multiply. Please do not  feed the trolls.
TheBlueMonkey
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#26 - 2013-01-18 13:39:11 UTC
You missed out the low end market .01 isking PvP, high end market PvP, small gang on small gang PvP, large gang, Sov warfare, corp thieves, scammers, espionage, diplomats, alliance leadership, etc etc etc etc

I think you may have tunnel vision, go get your eyes checked.
stoicfaux
#27 - 2013-01-18 14:20:23 UTC
Empire building is the "true" PvP end game. Random ship shootings are just small time deathmatching. RMT'ing to pay your rent is the purest form of PvP "in" the game.

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#28 - 2013-01-18 17:25:27 UTC
Whitehound wrote:
For some is PvP not more than an outlet. And just like we bring our real-life morals into EVE do we bring our real-life excitement and frustration, dreams and hopes into EVE, too.

The Player versus Player-interaction then needs to be seen as a Person versus Person-interaction, and with some people standing outside the sandbox and being unreachable.

For example, when someone comes home from school with a lot of homework given by his teachers, the parents making demands, the TV sucks, and so on, then they log into EVE and start shooting players for what seems as no good reason.

We let them do this, because we can.

Others play EVE to measure their intellectual abilities. This is what happens when players craft new fittings and experiment with new strategies.

Then there are those who desire accomplishments. Who build stuff and who get rich.

And more.

When these play styles come together then it can get weird. However, when the different play styles are being recognized by the players and their strengths are being combined does it lead to great alliances and epic battles.

And this is what you want to remove from highsec.
...

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Whitehound
#29 - 2013-01-18 17:41:35 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
And this is what you want to remove from highsec.
...

If it means to kick you out into low-sec and null-sec and in order for you to gain greatness in PvP, then it is a win for everyone.

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
Barakach
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#30 - 2013-01-18 17:47:10 UTC
PvP is when you do something against another player and have a real chance of failing.

Gate camping and popping some newb is as much PvP as shooting a caged deer is "hunting". Not to say gate campers are targeting newbs, but when a target comes through, one must assume it can get away.
Daisai
Daisai Investments.
#31 - 2013-01-18 17:51:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Daisai
Eve online isnt a pvp combat focused game, its a game focused around pvp interaction.
For example like trading in a station and everything where you interact with other players.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#32 - 2013-01-18 17:55:19 UTC
PvP is not an acronym for combat. Combat is only a subset of what PvP stands for.
This is why Eve is PvP centric.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#33 - 2013-01-18 18:03:47 UTC
Whitehound wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
And this is what you want to remove from highsec.
...

If it means to kick you out into low-sec and null-sec and in order for you to gain greatness in PvP, then it is a win for everyone.

No, it's not.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Barakach
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#34 - 2013-01-18 18:04:49 UTC
Mag's wrote:
PvP is not an acronym for combat. Combat is only a subset of what PvP stands for.
This is why Eve is PvP centric.


FloppieTheBanjoClown elegantly stated that PvP is competition. It doesn't matter what you're doing, but if it isn't competitive, it isn't PvP.
yopparai
ASTARTES CORP
Hashashin Cartel
#35 - 2013-01-18 19:16:09 UTC
Your post is bad, and you should feel bad about making this post.

All of your examples are two way exchanges, each player has ways to affect the out come.

The noob getting blapped is providing content to older players.

Gate camps serve all kinds of purposes from area denial, sitting around till an other gang finds you, & it teaches the players that lose ships to gate camps how to better avoid the losses in the future.

A blob is any gang bigger than your gang, get more friends or go find somewhere else to fly.

Yopp
Mina Bluerain
Mine 'N' Refine
Goonswarm Federation
#36 - 2013-01-24 12:26:41 UTC
Well, I'm a bit late in this topic, and many already answered it very well, so basically I'm just repeating others, but I'll go ahead and tell you my opinion on PVP...

So let's start with what the term PVP stands for: Player versus Player.

Everything you do in EVE, EVERYTHING, will at some level affect another player. Whether it's Player With Player or Player Versus Player depends on what it actually is that you do.

Even mission running: you are shooting NPCs (non-player characters) in a mission. This means you *are* present in a solar system where other players might be present too. You are part of an alliance that is in war with another (don't do it... I mean don't be stupid to run missions when you are wardecced... seriously... don't)

A hostile group, but newbies are in a system. You jump in with your mission fitted battleship. You already affected those players. just by being in the system, you took your part in PVP. They will check your employment history and see that you are quite a veteran, with a long history. Some of the newbies will say "**** it I have no chance against him", but they don't know you are not there to shoot them. Still they will stay docked and be safe. You prevent them to do anything: you acted against them. You just engaged them in PVP without even targeting them.

You finish your mission, take your reward, get some iskies, sell the loot on the market to someone. You sold them to the one that offered the highest price for it. You supported him... player with player... you did not sell it to those that offered lower price for your item. You acted against them... player versus player.

You might not realise but this affected other players too... both positive and negative ways. maybe even regions away. You sold the item to a player that is in war with another alliance, inevitably supporting him against that alliance: you helped him in PVP.

You take your stuff to Jita, even have an instant dock bookmark on Jita 4-4, so campers of your enemy could not catch you. You just outran them. Acted against them: did some PVP. Then you have an alt, your enemies don't know of... you undock with that alt, burn your mwd off the station, in straight line with the docking perimeter. Then you undock with your main and hit the fleet -> warp to member immediately. Warp is active, and since you are at full speed, perfectly aligned, you enter warp immediately... campers had no chance targeting you. You outran them, yet again: you engaged them in PVP and again: you won.

see? you don't need to shoot your guns, don't even need to target anything to do PVP. Be smart, gather intel, analyse it, use it and do something by which your enemy will be affected negatively...

THAT is what PVP is about. EVE's mechanics and open market and literally everything allows you to interact with or against another player.

destroying an enemy ship is not the only way to bring down an alliance. You can infiltrate their alliance, and do damage to them from within: PVP. Outrun a gatecamp: PVP. Place bounty on them: PVP. Manipulate market prices: PVP: sell to a powerful alliance to help them against your enemies: PVP.

using your brains - not your guns - against another player: PVP

There is many ways to do PVP in EVE... you don't need to shoot someone to affect their gameplay. You can just use your brain and make life hard for them.
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