These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
12Next page
 

Weapons Timer?
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Kryss Darkdust
The Skulls
#1 - 2013-01-17 12:07:55 UTC
Is there a logical reason that the Weapons Timer is only 1 minute?

I've come to the realization that this is actually laughably exploitable. Done a bit of testing and its very easy to use this timer for griefing purposes in particular when your parked up against a station with a suspect flag and have a tanky ship. Quite often people will attack you in fleets, but fairly easy to pick out a lighter target, blow them up, tank/wait out the timer and dock up.

I'm seeing this happening in almost every major hub and station and its extremely easy to pull off, in particular with passive tanks where you don't have to worry about cap. It takes considerable firepower for example to take out a 150EHP cruiser like a Prophecy in under 60 seconds (which noteably me and my boys tried to do the other day and failed).

In any case, is this weapons timer up for discussion, or nerfing/changing? It seems to me that if you aggress on someone you kind of should be more commited than 60 seconds worth of not shooting at someone. In particular given all the dock/undock games these days.

The reality of Eve is that, if you don't love it like it is today, you should probobly go ahead and unsub. 
Solstice Project
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#2 - 2013-01-17 12:18:48 UTC
*facepalm* it's not griefing.

Have you read your own sig ?
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#3 - 2013-01-17 12:21:40 UTC
I don't think hisec station games are that relevant in combat timer mechanics, weapons flag is more relevant when dealing with low/null gates.

Furthermore sitting on Jita 4-4 undock with a suspect timer is hardly griefing in any sense of the word.

.
Kryss Darkdust
The Skulls
#4 - 2013-01-17 12:25:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Kryss Darkdust
Solstice Project wrote:
*facepalm* it's not griefing.

Have you read your own sig ?


Well maybe not griefing but kind of an exploitable mechanic in which players hands are tied by the mechanic. I mean if you engage someone in a fight... why is there a "time limit" on that fight? I engage a guy who has a suspect flag.. he shoots back... suddenly decides he doesn't like how its going, stops shooting and all he has to do is survive for 60 seconds and he's golden and can simply dock up.

Its a stupid mechanic that makes absolutly no sense and has no redeaming qualities in terms of gameplay because all it does is mechanically force end an intereaction. Its basically a free warp out that can't be scrambled.

And I have read my sig.. I love Eve and this doesn't change it, but I'm curious about the thinking behind the design. After all, Eve is all about player vs player interaction.. why do have a mechanic that effectively puts an abstract timer on it? Why 1 minute? Its so short given the current state of the game with massive 150k cruiser tanks for example? It just seems really short to me.

The reality of Eve is that, if you don't love it like it is today, you should probobly go ahead and unsub. 
Scrindle Kavees
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#5 - 2013-01-17 12:27:36 UTC
Given the number of neutral/corp mate logi pilots these sad people use to ensure they can kill the odd cruiser with a vindicator and dock up safely. Extending the timer will not achieve much given that the RR chain will just have to stay there for longer and the populace of market hubs generally lack the cooperation to remove logis from the field anyway.

What I do find highly amusing however, cloaking off market hub stations in a falcon and waiting for one of these RR fags to actually start to lose a fight. When they reveal their logistics pilots, who in turn also pick up a suspect flag, jam the logis and watch the station campers burn. The hypocritical cries in local of the situation suddenly not being 'fair' are hillarious generally.
Thomas Gore
Blackfyre Enterprise
#6 - 2013-01-17 12:31:32 UTC
ITT: Station games - The PvP of the PvP Elite
Kryss Darkdust
The Skulls
#7 - 2013-01-17 12:31:45 UTC
Scrindle Kavees wrote:
Given the number of neutral/corp mate logi pilots these sad people use to ensure they can kill the odd cruiser with a vindicator and dock up safely. Extending the timer will not achieve much given that the RR chain will just have to stay there for longer and the populace of market hubs generally lack the cooperation to remove logis from the field anyway.

What I do find highly amusing however, cloaking off market hub stations in a falcon and waiting for one of these RR fags to actually start to lose a fight. When they reveal their logistics pilots, who in turn also pick up a suspect flag, jam the logis and watch the station campers burn. The hypocritical cries in local of the situation suddenly not being 'fair' are hillarious generally.



Well there is always a work around and this is one of several ways. But in general this timer throws people under the bus in several different scenarios. I mean I had a fight with a Navy Typhoon the other day and it sucked to know that even if we broke the tank, he would survive because all he had to do was hold out for 60 seconds. It was a fight not worth engaging... and any mechanic that makes you say "eh its not worth it to fight him, the timer will screw us"... is bad for the game. I mean it stifles fights. Of course I can use tricks here, but what I want is that when I pick a fight with someone and they accept the challenge, that we can resolve it with our skills/ships and fits... I don't want "timers and flags" and other BS getting in the way of the fight.. ending it prematurely or other stupidity of that nature.

Let us bloody fight!

The reality of Eve is that, if you don't love it like it is today, you should probobly go ahead and unsub. 
Cannibal Kane
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#8 - 2013-01-17 13:02:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Cannibal Kane
Kryss Darkdust wrote:
Is there a logical reason that the Weapons Timer is only 1 minute?

I've come to the realization that this is actually laughably exploitable. Done a bit of testing and its very easy to use this timer for griefing purposes in particular when your parked up against a station with a suspect flag and have a tanky ship. Quite often people will attack you in fleets, but fairly easy to pick out a lighter target, blow them up, tank/wait out the timer and dock up.

I'm seeing this happening in almost every major hub and station and its extremely easy to pull off, in particular with passive tanks where you don't have to worry about cap. It takes considerable firepower for example to take out a 150EHP cruiser like a Prophecy in under 60 seconds (which noteably me and my boys tried to do the other day and failed).

In any case, is this weapons timer up for discussion, or nerfing/changing? It seems to me that if you aggress on someone you kind of should be more commited than 60 seconds worth of not shooting at someone. In particular given all the dock/undock games these days.


Normally an automated response would be to bring more DPS.

Especially if they don't have RR busy repping them up. The prophecy is not a cruiser though.

I know what your talking about but I never see that Prophecy engage. So they don't have a 60s timer. they sit there for a while making sure they are engaged properly, giving you reason to engage again once he undock again. They are making use of the limited engagement timer. You undock as a suspect in heavily tanked ship before your suspect timer goes. Get people to shoot at you turning you light blue with a limited engagement.

Their suspect timer ends and they undock in something bigger. Now for the next 5 minutes they can engage people that shot at them. Since they appear blue the people that shot at them think he is still a suspect since they see him a blue. The fools that engaged dies and people come on the forums and Cry.

i have seen many people die like this. Realizing that nobody else can help them.

"Kane is the End Boss of Highsec." -Psychotic Monk
Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#9 - 2013-01-17 13:07:46 UTC
Station games existed for a long time actualy. Retribution made some moves to affect them a bit actually but you know, ~baby steps~.

Future of T3 cruisers - multi-tool they aspired to be instead of sledgehammer they have become
Debora Tsung
Perkone
Caldari State
#10 - 2013-01-17 13:22:45 UTC
Kryss Darkdust wrote:
Is there a logical reason that the Weapons Timer is only 1 minute?

I've come to the realization that this is actually laughably exploitable. Done a bit of testing and its very easy to use this timer for griefing purposes in particular when your parked up against a station with a suspect flag and have a tanky ship. Quite often people will attack you in fleets, but fairly easy to pick out a lighter target, blow them up, tank/wait out the timer and dock up.

I'm seeing this happening in almost every major hub and station and its extremely easy to pull off, in particular with passive tanks where you don't have to worry about cap. It takes considerable firepower for example to take out a 150EHP cruiser like a Prophecy in under 60 seconds (which noteably me and my boys tried to do the other day and failed).




60 seconds + the time You need to blow up the said weaker target. They could just bait You and then undock their DPS of DOOM ship to kill You.

Stupidity should be a bannable offense.

Fighting back is more fun than not.

Sticky: AFK Cloaking Thread It's not pretty, but it's there.
Solstice Project
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#11 - 2013-01-17 13:29:22 UTC
I've seen suspects sit at a station, waiting for a random idiot to shoot them.
Then the suspect docks up and undocks again in something bigger,
to blow the random idiot away.

Hey, to fix that, we could put a timer on both ships ... so the suspect can't dock either.

That would solve this problem. ^_^
Kryss Darkdust
The Skulls
#12 - 2013-01-18 07:21:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Kryss Darkdust
Well I haven't seen the dock up and undock with a bigger ship thing, but in as a whole the 1 minute timer creates a variety of restrictive time presures on fights that should take place naturally. I mean.. it should be quite simple. Your a suspect because you did something... I shoot at you... We are now in a fight. You can get your friends in it.. I can get my friends in it... but let the fight resolve as a fight, not as a abstract mechanical "timer" which creates a situation where the consquences of engaging in combat can be avoided.

I mean Im fine with a suspect docking up.. but if he shoots at me.. at that point, he and I are committed.. no gates, no docks.. just your ships, my ships... and space until the fight is resolved.

I think the timer shouldn't start until both he and I stop shooting at each other. If he stops but I continue to shoot, than the timer does not begin and we should both unable to dock or jump gates.

This timer has gotten in the way on two occassions which have prevented legitimate fights from coming to their natural conclusions.

1. A suspect floating next to a station. I engage, he fights back, Im breaking his tank, he realizes he is going to lose, he stops shooting.. survives for 60 seconds and docks up.

2. War target, I catch them at a station, we fight, he realizes he's going to lose, stops shooting 60 seconds later, docks up.

To me this is backwards... a fight is a fight.. lets us bloody fight in Eve.. last time I checked this is what the game was about. Just saying... I mean, of course I can deal with it in alternative "sneaky ways", but it all seems very unescessary.

The reality of Eve is that, if you don't love it like it is today, you should probobly go ahead and unsub. 
Alec Enderas
Space Wolves ind.
Solyaris Chtonium
#13 - 2013-01-18 14:17:49 UTC
Kryss Darkdust wrote:
Well I haven't seen the dock up and undock with a bigger ship thing, but in as a whole the 1 minute timer creates a variety of restrictive time presures on fights that should take place naturally. I mean.. it should be quite simple. Your a suspect because you did something... I shoot at you... We are now in a fight. You can get your friends in it.. I can get my friends in it... but let the fight resolve as a fight, not as a abstract mechanical "timer" which creates a situation where the consquences of engaging in combat can be avoided.

I mean Im fine with a suspect docking up.. but if he shoots at me.. at that point, he and I are committed.. no gates, no docks.. just your ships, my ships... and space until the fight is resolved.

I think the timer shouldn't start until both he and I stop shooting at each other. If he stops but I continue to shoot, than the timer does not begin and we should both unable to dock or jump gates.

This timer has gotten in the way on two occassions which have prevented legitimate fights from coming to their natural conclusions.

1. A suspect floating next to a station. I engage, he fights back, Im breaking his tank, he realizes he is going to lose, he stops shooting.. survives for 60 seconds and docks up.

2. War target, I catch them at a station, we fight, he realizes he's going to lose, stops shooting 60 seconds later, docks up.

To me this is backwards... a fight is a fight.. lets us bloody fight in Eve.. last time I checked this is what the game was about. Just saying... I mean, of course I can deal with it in alternative "sneaky ways", but it all seems very unescessary.


Won't comment on the suggested mechanics, will leave that to the station huggers and their friends/enemies.
You need to realize that eve is NOT about fights, it's about screwing each other around. You make somebody's ship go poof ? You avoid a fight, you bait someone , you dock up before somebody can finish you off ? You deny a kill ? Seem all legit win scenarios for me.

I am not old, just bitter.
Othran
Route One
#14 - 2013-01-18 14:24:04 UTC
This thread is just full of fail.

1 minute at gates is quite long enough to wait - Eve has plenty of time sinks, waiting at gates for 5 minutes (or whatever) isn't one of them, nor should it be.

Basing your thoughts about weapons timer on high-sec station games is where you went wrong. High-sec station games have always primarily been about timers and manipulating said timers to produce the desired result. Timers matter elsewhere but not to the same extent as you can just bring more dps without bothering with high-sec mechanics (concorde/faction navy).
Kryss Darkdust
The Skulls
#15 - 2013-01-18 14:36:20 UTC
Othran wrote:
This thread is just full of fail.

1 minute at gates is quite long enough to wait - Eve has plenty of time sinks, waiting at gates for 5 minutes (or whatever) isn't one of them, nor should it be.

Basing your thoughts about weapons timer on high-sec station games is where you went wrong. High-sec station games have always primarily been about timers and manipulating said timers to produce the desired result. Timers matter elsewhere but not to the same extent as you can just bring more dps without bothering with high-sec mechanics (concorde/faction navy).



Its not really the timer thats the issue per say, I have no issue with a 1 minute timer. The issue is when the timer starts. Having it start the moment someone "stops" shooting after commiting themselves to a fight, is weak status. The timer should start when you stop shooting and stop being shot at.

The reality of Eve is that, if you don't love it like it is today, you should probobly go ahead and unsub. 
K1netic
Doomheim
#16 - 2013-01-18 14:41:06 UTC
you have bigger problems if 60 seconds isn't enough for you to take out 150 EHP.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#17 - 2013-01-18 14:49:53 UTC
…sooooo deaggressing has been a part of standard gameplay for… how many years now?
And now, all of a sudden, it's a problem? Colour me sceptical.
Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings
#18 - 2013-01-18 14:50:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Kahega Amielden
Quote:
Its not really the timer thats the issue per say, I have no issue with a 1 minute timer. The issue is when the timer starts. Having it start the moment someone "stops" shooting after commiting themselves to a fight, is weak status. The timer should start when you stop shooting and stop being shot at.


I sympathize with the position, but this also makes station camping infinitely more effective. As it is now any (prepared, competent) player can just consider hisec stations safeishzones.

Quote:
…sooooo deaggressing has been a part of standard gameplay for… how many years now?
And now, all of a sudden, it's a problem? Colour me sceptical.


Ship tiers were part of standard gameplay for years and I don't see anyone bitching at those being removed.
Unsuccessful At Everything
The Troll Bridge
#19 - 2013-01-18 18:34:30 UTC
Kryss Darkdust wrote:

I'm seeing this happening in almost every major hub and station and its extremely easy to pull off, in particular with passive tanks where you don't have to worry about cap. It takes considerable firepower for example to take out a 150EHP cruiser like a Prophecy in under 60 seconds (which noteably me and my boys tried to do the other day and failed).


Number 1, if you got ganked by a Prophecy...then you have bigger issues and should probably revist tanking 101 as super tanked Prophecy has miserable DPS.

Number 2, Sounds like you got ganked in a hub by a Prophecy. Please see number 1.

Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings?
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#20 - 2013-01-18 18:36:13 UTC
Kahega Amielden wrote:
Quote:
Its not really the timer thats the issue per say, I have no issue with a 1 minute timer. The issue is when the timer starts. Having it start the moment someone "stops" shooting after commiting themselves to a fight, is weak status. The timer should start when you stop shooting and stop being shot at.


I sympathize with the position, but this also makes station camping infinitely more effective. As it is now any (prepared, competent) player can just consider hisec stations safeishzones.

Quote:
…sooooo deaggressing has been a part of standard gameplay for… how many years now?
And now, all of a sudden, it's a problem? Colour me sceptical.


Ship tiers were part of standard gameplay for years and I don't see anyone bitching at those being removed.

Uh, what are you even talking about?
The timer was ALWAYS there, it just wasn't shown.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
12Next page