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new subscribers vs. subscriber retention.
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Ris Dnalor
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#1 - 2013-01-18 07:57:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Ris Dnalor
CSM Meeting Notes Page 13 wrote:
...For many years, CCP has tended to focus primarily on subscriber retention and less on new subscriber acquisition. And that looking at the path that people take to find themselves playing the game for the first time, isn't something that was being given enough attention.


focusing on subscriber retention for as long as you did is what made eve great, and you can't focus on both -- if you try then you're not focusing on either one.

playing for 10 years and seeing many of the same people affecting the eve world is a big part of what makes eve what it is.

You won't get that if you start a massive turnover of new subscribers.

CCP posted many graphs, charts, and blogs to this effect in response to the many "eve is dying posts" over the years.
http://users.telenet.be/mmodata/Charts/Subs-2.png


To think that they have lost the courage to continue this is sad.

The whole reason why the subscriber base stopped it's gradual increase over the years is because you got away from your core ideals of eve being a cold harsh place.

CCP Wrangler wrote:

EVE is a dark and harsh world, you're supposed to feel a bit worried and slightly angry when you log in, you're not supposed to feel like you're logging in to a happy, happy, fluffy, fluffy lala land filled with fun and adventures, that's what hello kitty online is for.


http://eve-search.com/thread/528360/page/1#29

This is all you need to know. Get back to this, and take care of your existing customers.


Or don't. Feed the new subscriber frenzy, and go the way of so many other games that spike heavily and die. It would be such a sad thing.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=118961

EvE = Everybody Vs. Everybody

  • Qolde
Hir Miriel
Elves In Space
#2 - 2013-01-18 09:00:26 UTC
I'm new to EVE, some 30 days here.

I've played a few MMOs, my wife and I met in Ultima Online, and I think EVE is doing really well.

They gave me surprising service, GM Tegrino had a private chat with me one time, asking how I was going and all that personal touch stuff that makes a product or service stand out.

By contrast there is a game called Runescape that has had a lot more success than EVE but is crashing and burning badly. The problem they have is how they deal with customers.

To get an idea of what is going on, go to Google Trends and type in EVE Online and then add the term Runescape.

Runescape reached dizzy heights in 2007 and since then has slide to less activity than 2004, and will probably go past EVE's numbers in a year or so, in the downward direction. EVEs numbers just plod along.

Which for EVE means two things;

1. If they want some new subs they could do worse than advertise to Runescape customers.
2. Slow and Steady works, imagine if 30k new players signed up tomorrow, it would be a blessing and a curse. Mo'money, mo'lag, for a start.

I came to EVE because I heard they minimised microtransaction and monetisation plans. Runescape on the other hand is all hands out grabbing player's money, including gambling aimed at kids.

From a newbies perspective ideas like the CSM and the Rookie chat strike me as excellent ideas, well implemented.

That's all EVE has to do, keep talking to the players. All the rest is makework designed to keep marketers in jobs.

~ ~~ Thinking inside Schrodinger's sandbox. ~~ ~
Tyrendian Biohazard
The Bastards
Sedition.
#3 - 2013-01-18 13:52:32 UTC
Hir Miriel wrote:
I'm new to EVE, some 30 days here.

I've played a few MMOs, my wife and I met in Ultima Online, and I think EVE is doing really well.

They gave me surprising service, GM Tegrino had a private chat with me one time, asking how I was going and all that personal touch stuff that makes a product or service stand out.

By contrast there is a game called Runescape that has had a lot more success than EVE but is crashing and burning badly. The problem they have is how they deal with customers.

To get an idea of what is going on, go to Google Trends and type in EVE Online and then add the term Runescape.

Runescape reached dizzy heights in 2007 and since then has slide to less activity than 2004, and will probably go past EVE's numbers in a year or so, in the downward direction. EVEs numbers just plod along.

Which for EVE means two things;

1. If they want some new subs they could do worse than advertise to Runescape customers.
2. Slow and Steady works, imagine if 30k new players signed up tomorrow, it would be a blessing and a curse. Mo'money, mo'lag, for a start.

I came to EVE because I heard they minimised microtransaction and monetisation plans. Runescape on the other hand is all hands out grabbing player's money, including gambling aimed at kids.

From a newbies perspective ideas like the CSM and the Rookie chat strike me as excellent ideas, well implemented.

That's all EVE has to do, keep talking to the players. All the rest is makework designed to keep marketers in jobs.


I agree. I've tried Eve out in the past and never been able to get into it, but found I was going with the wrong approach and mentality. Once I've put that aside it was easy to get into and while I'm only a few weeks in, I'm completely hooked.

While I've seen a lot more Eve ads floating around the net to pull in new players, their dedicated to their current user base is what makes them extraordinary.

As far as recruiting, I say let the players of the WoWs and Rifts of the world have their fun with micro-transactions and scripted story lines. After three months of playing and completing endgame content, they'll be bored out of their minds. Some will say to themselves "There has to be something more out there for me" and those are the ones you will have discover Eve and never look back.

Twitch streamer and EVE NT tournament broadcaster.
Hrothgar Nilsson
#4 - 2013-01-18 13:55:46 UTC
Quote:
focusing on subscriber retention for as long as you did is what made eve great, and you can't focus on both -- if you try then you're not focusing on either one.

That's categorically false - they can do both.

It makes about as much sense as saying someone can't walk and chew bubble gum at the same time.

I've... seen things you people wouldn't believe...

Attack ships on fire off the shoulder of Orion...
Commander Spurty
#5 - 2013-01-18 14:11:09 UTC
Runescape alliance of 30k wet behind the ear n00bs running around space ...

Sounds fun!

Really what eve needs is a new 40k power block (none of the old school in it) to teach us how to play the game in 2013.

I'm a bit stuck in 2008 :-/

There are good ships,

And wood ships,

And ships that sail the sea

But the best ships are Spaceships

Built by CCP
Montevius Williams
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#6 - 2013-01-18 18:07:15 UTC
Ris Dnalor wrote:
[quote=CSM Meeting Notes Page 13]focusing on subscriber retention for as long as you did is what made eve great, and you can't focus on both -- if you try then you're not focusing on either one


You can focus on both. WoW did it with the Burning Cruscade Expansion which was a GREAT expansion pack.

"The American Government indoctrination system known as public education has been relentlessly churning out socialists for over 20 years". - TravisWB
Unsuccessful At Everything
The Troll Bridge
#7 - 2013-01-18 18:28:54 UTC
Is this a stealth "Eve is dying" thread?

Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings?
Loretta Syne
Drunken CND
#8 - 2013-01-18 18:30:28 UTC
New subscribers pay sub and make CCP rich. Old subscribers use up PLEX stockpiles and inflate PLEX price and love to drive away new players that might otherwise buy PLEX from CCP.
Mira Robinson
#9 - 2013-01-18 18:37:46 UTC
Loretta Syne wrote:
New subscribers pay sub and make CCP rich. Old subscribers use up PLEX stockpiles and inflate PLEX price and love to drive away new players that might otherwise buy PLEX from CCP.

Yet another anti-PLEX post that doesn't know how PLEX works. Any PLEX in-game has already been bought with real money. CCP already has their cut.

Earlier today, the Dixon Mining Guild and the Butz Manufacturing Corporation formed a coalition.

It's hard to tell if there is a light at the end of the tunnel for the Dixon-Butz Alliance.
Lashenadeeka
Qinglong Fleet
Jade Kirin Alliance
#10 - 2013-01-18 18:40:48 UTC
Mira Robinson wrote:
Loretta Syne wrote:
New subscribers pay sub and make CCP rich. Old subscribers use up PLEX stockpiles and inflate PLEX price and love to drive away new players that might otherwise buy PLEX from CCP.

Yet another anti-PLEX post that doesn't know how PLEX works. Any PLEX in-game has already been bought with real money. CCP already has their cut.


Implying an increase in demand will always force an increase in supply.
T'Laar Bok
#11 - 2013-01-18 18:55:38 UTC
Hir Miriel wrote:
Runescape.


I've recently seen adds for Runescape on AU pay TV. My wife and girls used to play it a few years back until they couldn't do anything without being accosted by pedophiles at every turn.

"I got another one" was the catch cry in our household for a long time unit the girls just got sick of it.

Saw a lot of penises though.Shocked

Amphetimines are your friend.

http://eveboard.com/pilot/T'Laar_Bok
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#12 - 2013-01-18 19:10:59 UTC
Ris Dnalor wrote:

focusing on subscriber retention for as long as you did is what made eve great, and you can't focus on both -- if you try then you're not focusing on either one.

playing for 10 years and seeing many of the same people affecting the eve world is a big part of what makes eve what it is.

You won't get that if you start a massive turnover of new subscribers.


This is exactly incorrect. Many of the things which improve the new player experience also improve the vet experience. For instance, Tiericide is primarily focused on new players but has a large and measurable benefit for vets. Removing learning skills is primarily focused on new players but also benefits vets. Making the UI approachable benefits new players and vets.

The list goes on almost literally forever.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#13 - 2013-01-18 19:23:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Malcanis
What will get EVE lots of new players isn't mollycoddling them and wrapping them up in cotton wool. The way to attract and retain new players is to encourage and facilitate them joining in the cold, dark dangerous dirty world of New Eden.

EDIT: Some people automatically assume that new players are put off by violence and danger. But lots of them are put off because they feel excluded from it.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#14 - 2013-01-18 19:26:17 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
What will get EVE lots of new players isn't mollycoddling them and wrapping them up in cotton wool. The way to attract and retain new players is to encourage and facilitate them joining in the cold, dark dangerous dirty world of New Eden.


Do you truly believe that CCP is trying to mollycoddle new players and is forsaking the cold, dark, dangerous, dirty world of New Eden?

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#15 - 2013-01-18 19:28:41 UTC
See the edit.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#16 - 2013-01-18 19:30:52 UTC
Lashenadeeka wrote:
Mira Robinson wrote:
Loretta Syne wrote:
New subscribers pay sub and make CCP rich. Old subscribers use up PLEX stockpiles and inflate PLEX price and love to drive away new players that might otherwise buy PLEX from CCP.

Yet another anti-PLEX post that doesn't know how PLEX works. Any PLEX in-game has already been bought with real money. CCP already has their cut.


Implying an increase in demand will always force an increase in supply.


If PLEX were selling for 2 bill each, I'd definitely buy 2-3 GTC and sell the PLEX

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#17 - 2013-01-18 19:45:18 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
What will get EVE lots of new players isn't mollycoddling them and wrapping them up in cotton wool. The way to attract and retain new players is to encourage and facilitate them joining in the cold, dark dangerous dirty world of New Eden.

EDIT: Some people automatically assume that new players are put off by violence and danger. But lots of them are put off because they feel excluded from it.


Not only that, but that is exactly the kind of thing that is going to keep CCP from directly competing with WOW, SWTOR, etc. CCP is best served by expanding the game to be welcoming of everyone in the "niche" that they fill. Letting people get away because the new player experience is bad or because people feel excluded from the game early on is a huge mistake.

I believe it is completely reasonable for CCP use the same changes to make huge strides in both new player retention as well as vet retention. The question is whether they're going to focus on things that only a very small portion of the community are directly affected by or if they're going to continue delivering awesome results directly to everyone.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.