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Cyno jamming cruiser

Author
nikon56
UnSkilleD Inc.
#41 - 2013-01-11 13:41:54 UTC
i think we need to ask WHY some ppl want a ship to have this ability.

and i think the answer is because some ppl hotdrop in ridiculous way.

they misuse the capability offered by titans because of a flaw in the way bridging is designed.

everything PVP related in eve is designed to be put at risk, any ship that take part, in a way or another, to combat, CAN be potentially destroyed.

a flaw was logi ship, which still had the capacity to dock any moment even if they were taking action in combat, and this has been corrected with the last update.

only ships now that remains able to take part in fight yet stay in pure safety are titans and black ops, that can just project forces, thus taking active part in combat, without being put at risk of destruction.

this is wrong.

make it so that the titans and Black ops are on the field, where they take the risk of being killed, like anyone that take part in the fight.

thus those using titans will have to think wisely about taking part of it.

this will stop silly hotdrop of 20+ gang to kill 2 cruisers, or at least give the opportunity for the "other side" to fight back ALL the ppl taking part in the combat.

i know a couple of ppl that would either stop dropping crazy stuff, or loose titans sooner or later.

ps: all this is also available to black ops indeed

all pvp pilot shall assess the risk when he take part in any fight, but not the titans pilots, they just don't care, they bridge and Voila. this is not the way eve claims to work
JD No7
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#42 - 2013-01-11 14:28:38 UTC
jamesoverlord wrote:
JD No7 wrote:
This is just another way for the roaming fleet to prevent themselves having to engage anything that poses a challenge / defeat. With scouts in place, and this ship, getting that fleet to fight on anything but their terms would be nigh impossible.

So it's a no. And that's coming from an alliance that both uses hot drops and gets hotdropped.

Man up, James :-)




Lol coming from an alliance that would hot drop a rifter with an ahac fleet

Grow some balls JD :)


Only time we go hotdrop is when we find campers with eyes everywhere.... Things have really improved in the Gud fites dept recently :-)

You can have this ship if we get a 30 second local update delay, how's that?
Anthar Thebess
#43 - 2013-01-11 15:01:28 UTC
Check this thread.
Both things on the field should be grate ;)

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=182784&find=unread
Anthar Thebess
#44 - 2013-01-11 15:02:17 UTC
Peter Powers wrote:
a cyno jamming ship should be capital if at all.


And cyno ship can be a noobship ;)

Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#45 - 2013-01-11 19:37:06 UTC
JD No7 wrote:
Only time we go hotdrop is when we find campers with eyes everywhere.... Things have really improved in the Gud fites dept recently :-)

You can have this ship if we get a 30 second local update delay, how's that?

My goodness, if there was a thirty second delay, local chat would not have enough time to warn the risk averse that they needed to get safe.

You could bring a fleet through a gate, and engage unsuspecting targets.

(Well, they could use intel channels, or dscan, and still be able to avoid you... but seriously, many won't bother)
Reppyk
The Black Shell
#46 - 2013-01-11 23:27:59 UTC
JD No7 wrote:
You can have this ship if we get a 30 second local update delay, how's that?
30s delay is something I would love to see. Oops

I AM SPACE CAPTAIN REPPYK. BEWARE.

Proud co-admin of frugu.net, a French fansite about EVE !

Sigras
Conglomo
#47 - 2013-01-12 00:39:43 UTC
Nikk Narrel wrote:
How many well intentioned ideas end up being misused?

I appreciate you would want this to promote more PvP, but the fact remains that it could be used very effectively to avoid it.
And let there be no doubt strong motivation exists for some pilots to do exactly that.

It is not enough that it might do some good occasionally.

How would you balance out those who would seek to avoid risk, above and beyond what is intended by the game's design?
For this undoubtedly creates such opportunities.

well if it had a 1 minute cycle time during which you could not warp off . . . even if it were like 5 minutes with a 15% reduction per level (ends up at 75 seconds) that would basically stick them on grid; also if it had the same restrictions as the HIC when launching a bubble, it wouldnt be going anywhere fast.

Combining this with making it a T2 battlecruiser would mean that it isnt some cheap throw away ship that you can lose over and over and over again . . .

I think that should do it . . . in fact you could even do some pretty funny things like bait people into putting the field up and have your fleet hop the gate and pounce on them.
Kesthely
Mestana
#48 - 2013-01-12 03:24:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Kesthely
This idea is never going to work as you want it. Your worried about hot drops? Be a man, face it it happens. If it happens all the time you should have a better early warning system, like adding the titan / black ops pilots on your contact list.

Now if you want a way to Counter Titan and black op drops you should reverse it entirely. Make the bridgeing ship autojump at the end of the current (covert) cyno if the cynoship isn't destroyed.

This way you have a bit more options, you can counter drop, and keep the enemy cyno alive and at the end of the cycle, you get a big expensive bonus if you manage to kill the fleet and set in the proper tackle. This just requires a tiny change in bridgeing mechanics, as well as in self destructing mechanics (not allowed to selfdestruct while a cyno is active) instead of introduceing an inbalanced, easily exploitable new ship that really doesn't serve any purpose.
Sigras
Conglomo
#49 - 2013-01-12 05:23:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Sigras
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Sigras wrote:
2.) Jamming out an entire grid is pretty harsh.... and that may be too much. I'd prefer a more limited range, like a 50-100 km radius sphere.

maybe 200 km? so youre out of warp disruption range of a lachesis with loki bonus?


A Faction fit Arazu has a 72 km pt before Warfare Link Bonuses. And links only push it out to 90ish.... Frankly, I think having someone decloak an arazu, pt from 70ish km's, bridge in the backup, and gank your anti-cyno ship is exactly the type of danger it should have to face... and I think that's a pretty good reason to limit the range to 50-60 km's. At the same time, logistics reps have a 72 km range.... which is the only reason I thought pushing it out to 80ish is a good idea...

From a pragmatic use scenario... when an opponent cyno's onto field, you want them beyond rep range, but closer than warp range.... this basically means there will be two separate fleets, and allows you to finish one off before engaging the other, etc...

While i get that, what I would want to avoid is falcons bridging in and mucking up the fight . . .


Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Sigras wrote:
3.) The order of precedence needs to be established. If I light a cyno, it should be to late for you to prevent it bridging to it... In other words, you need to preemptively act to prevent a cyno, not "react" to prevent a bridge to an already lit cyno.
Agreed . . . the field should prevent cynos from going up but not affect any cynos currently up.

It would be cool, however, to script the module to prevent ships from coming through open cynos if you targeted it, like the script on the warp disruption field generator.

So you can have the script in and target the ship launching the cyno to prevent anyone from coming through it, so you would need 2 to completely lock down a grid once a cyno is up.


I'm against the scripted module.... I think that creates too much abuse and problems.... you either prevent the cyno, or you deal with the bridge by blowing up the cyno ship!

I dont know i feel like this could add an interesting niche to the force recon class. instead of the useless time bonus, they could get a "resistance to directed cyno scrambling effects" on their cynos.

That would give someone incentive to use those ships for cynos instead of throw away frigates.

Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Also, need to add a fifth caveat:

5.) The module cannot be activated while inside a POS shield!!! And your ship is "prevented" from entering a POS force field while the cyno disruption field is active.

Agreed this thing in a POS would be totally OP, to affect the battlefield you should always have to put your ship in danger.
Sigras
Conglomo
#50 - 2013-01-12 05:54:37 UTC
Kesthely wrote:
Now if you want a way to Counter Titan and black op drops you should reverse it entirely. Make the bridgeing ship autojump at the end of the current (covert) cyno if the cynoship isn't destroyed.

A better idea would be to literally reverse it and make the ships right click on the cyno and appear next to the titan . . . that way you cant bridge and then just log off.

Kesthely wrote:
This way you have a bit more options, you can counter drop, and keep the enemy cyno alive and at the end of the cycle, you get a big expensive bonus if you manage to kill the fleet and set in the proper tackle. This just requires a tiny change in bridgeing mechanics, as well as in self destructing mechanics (not allowed to selfdestruct while a cyno is active) instead of introduceing an inbalanced, easily exploitable new ship that really doesn't serve any purpose.

First of all the word is unbalanced
Second, you dont explain how the ship would be easily exploitable
Lastly the ship would serve a purpose, preventing hot drops . . .
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#51 - 2013-01-12 14:54:18 UTC
Sigras wrote:
Kesthely wrote:
Now if you want a way to Counter Titan and black op drops you should reverse it entirely. Make the bridgeing ship autojump at the end of the current (covert) cyno if the cynoship isn't destroyed.

A better idea would be to literally reverse it and make the ships right click on the cyno and appear next to the titan . . . that way you cant bridge and then just log off.

Kesthely wrote:
This way you have a bit more options, you can counter drop, and keep the enemy cyno alive and at the end of the cycle, you get a big expensive bonus if you manage to kill the fleet and set in the proper tackle. This just requires a tiny change in bridgeing mechanics, as well as in self destructing mechanics (not allowed to selfdestruct while a cyno is active) instead of introduceing an inbalanced, easily exploitable new ship that really doesn't serve any purpose.

First of all the word is unbalanced
Second, you dont explain how the ship would be easily exploitable
Lastly the ship would serve a purpose, preventing hot drops . . .

I am not happy about hot drops existing. That said, I respect they are present for a reason.

Remove the reason, and you remove the result.

I know many players are quite happy with the status quo, but that does not make it right.
Players who want to avoid conflict, can do so with no effort by watching local.
The ease of use and it's near absolute success rate is considered unbalanced by enough of the playerbase, that they created AFK Cloaking and subsequent Hot Dropping tactics to counter this free intel effect.

Many of us feel if this is ignored, the real problem will remain unsolved.
To be specific, that the near perfect ability to avoid risk with so little effort should be limited to high security space exclusively.
Darth Element
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#52 - 2013-01-14 17:53:17 UTC
nikon56 wrote:
i think we need to ask WHY some ppl want a ship to have this ability.

and i think the answer is because some ppl hotdrop in ridiculous way.

they misuse the capability offered by titans because of a flaw in the way bridging is designed.

everything PVP related in eve is designed to be put at risk, any ship that take part, in a way or another, to combat, CAN be potentially destroyed.

a flaw was logi ship, which still had the capacity to dock any moment even if they were taking action in combat, and this has been corrected with the last update.

only ships now that remains able to take part in fight yet stay in pure safety are titans and black ops, that can just project forces, thus taking active part in combat, without being put at risk of destruction.

this is wrong.

make it so that the titans and Black ops are on the field, where they take the risk of being killed, like anyone that take part in the fight.

thus those using titans will have to think wisely about taking part of it.

this will stop silly hotdrop of 20+ gang to kill 2 cruisers, or at least give the opportunity for the "other side" to fight back ALL the ppl taking part in the combat.

i know a couple of ppl that would either stop dropping crazy stuff, or loose titans sooner or later.

ps: all this is also available to black ops indeed

all pvp pilot shall assess the risk when he take part in any fight, but not the titans pilots, they just don't care, they bridge and Voila. this is not the way eve claims to work


Show us on the dolly where the big bad titan/black ops drop touched you. Blink
Sigras
Conglomo
#53 - 2013-01-18 09:46:51 UTC
Darth Element wrote:
Show us on the dolly where the big bad titan/black ops drop touched you. Blink

This kind of post is not constructive and only feeds the stereotype that the only people who want hot drops to remain as is in game are fools who cannot make coherent arguments.

However as I keep saying, and everyone seems to keep ignoring, this ship could not be used to avoid engagements; in fact this ship would be a liability to those looking to avoid engagements as it would be stuck in place for 1-2 minutes

what it would do is facilitate engagements between smaller fleets who would engage if they could mitigate the risk of having 500 people drop in and ruin your day.

There would be several ways to counter this ship:

1. baiting - you could bait the ship into launching its bubble, light a cyno off grid and warp the fleet in on top of him.
2. sniping - if the ship is unable to receive RR it should be a fairly trivial matter to just blow it up and launch the cyno anyway.
3. being faster - if you hit the button first, your cyno goes up then the bubble goes up, which, hilariously means that they cant counter drop you.

Hot drops are another uncounertable mechanic in the game; if youre fast enough there is literally nothing i can do to stop you from bringing in 248 of your closest friends to the party uninvited.

I guarantee this stops far more fights than it enables.
nikon56
UnSkilleD Inc.
#54 - 2013-01-18 10:16:25 UTC  |  Edited by: nikon56
Darth Element wrote:
nikon56 wrote:
i think we need to ask WHY some ppl want a ship to have this ability.

and i think the answer is because some ppl hotdrop in ridiculous way.

they misuse the capability offered by titans because of a flaw in the way bridging is designed.

everything PVP related in eve is designed to be put at risk, any ship that take part, in a way or another, to combat, CAN be potentially destroyed.

a flaw was logi ship, which still had the capacity to dock any moment even if they were taking action in combat, and this has been corrected with the last update.

only ships now that remains able to take part in fight yet stay in pure safety are titans and black ops, that can just project forces, thus taking active part in combat, without being put at risk of destruction.

this is wrong.

make it so that the titans and Black ops are on the field, where they take the risk of being killed, like anyone that take part in the fight.

thus those using titans will have to think wisely about taking part of it.

this will stop silly hotdrop of 20+ gang to kill 2 cruisers, or at least give the opportunity for the "other side" to fight back ALL the ppl taking part in the combat.

i know a couple of ppl that would either stop dropping crazy stuff, or loose titans sooner or later.

ps: all this is also available to black ops indeed

all pvp pilot shall assess the risk when he take part in any fight, but not the titans pilots, they just don't care, they bridge and Voila. this is not the way eve claims to work


Show us on the dolly where the big bad titan/black ops drop touched you. Blink

says the guy who use his titan to make his 40 men fleet go back and forth aranir <=> dysa (5 lowsec gates to go for those who don't know the region) because a 10 man fleet is on the path....
Drake Doe
88Th Tax Haven
#55 - 2013-01-18 12:36:32 UTC
So you want to remove a valid tactic which is projecting a fleet?

"The homogenization of EVE began when Gallente and Caldari started sharing a weapon system."---Vermaak Doe-- "Ohh squabbles ohh I love my dust trolls like watching an episode of Maury with less " Is he my Dad " but more of " My Neighbor took a dump on my lawn " good episode! pops more corn" ---Evernub--

nikon56
UnSkilleD Inc.
#56 - 2013-01-18 13:40:08 UTC
Drake Doe wrote:
So you want to remove a valid tactic which is projecting a fleet?

no, i don't want it removed.

as i agree it is a valid projection tactic, (even when used to avoid growing balls, yes, this is about you BTs), this is not the main problem inherent to the current mechanic.

the issue is that the titan, which when used for a combat deployement (hot drop), is a major combat asset, but remains not commited to the fight and stay in parfect safety.

when you take part in combat, you HAVE to be put at immediate retaliation risk.

any other combat asset in eve is put at risk, from the noob ship to the supercap, the moment they take part in any engagement.

this is not the case of the titan

the only other combat asset not put at risk at the moment, is offgrid booster, and this is being adressed by CCP because considered unfair that an asset with so much impact on the battlefield is not put at risk.

i don't ask for titan nerf in projection capability, and i'm not fan of the proposed here jamming solution.

but i think the titan shall end up on the battlefield, whether it goes first, or not, with delay or not, it shall go on batlefield, to give the opportunity for the ppl dropped to defend themselve.

actually, too many ppl just use the titan only for drops or fleet mouvement, well, then just lets replace them by a 70-100B pos module with the same characteristics, i'm sure that this would not make a single difference for at least half of them.

all this is also true for black ops indeed
Drake Doe
88Th Tax Haven
#57 - 2013-01-18 13:54:46 UTC
In that state they're not using it for combat for a purpose, it's a f****** expensive ship. If people want to use one of it only for one of it's greatest assets while keeping it out of harms way that's their business, you should have to actually look for what system they're in like how you have to find jump bridges by probing for them

"The homogenization of EVE began when Gallente and Caldari started sharing a weapon system."---Vermaak Doe-- "Ohh squabbles ohh I love my dust trolls like watching an episode of Maury with less " Is he my Dad " but more of " My Neighbor took a dump on my lawn " good episode! pops more corn" ---Evernub--

nikon56
UnSkilleD Inc.
#58 - 2013-01-18 14:00:07 UTC
Drake Doe wrote:
In that state they're not using it for combat for a purpose, it's a f****** expensive ship. If people want to use one of it only for one of it's greatest assets while keeping it out of harms way that's their business, you should have to actually look for what system they're in like how you have to find jump bridges by probing for them

yes it is expansive, and if they had to field it up, maybe they would sometimes reconsider dropping?

even when you find the titan (wich is quite easy tbh), you cannot virtually destroy it unless his pilot screws up

you do what? attack the pos he's in? right, but the second the pos is RF, the titan has moved in another pos, and so on.

titan is actually an invulnerable major tactical asset and this is broken mechanic
Drake Doe
88Th Tax Haven
#59 - 2013-01-18 14:10:26 UTC
A tactical asset that isn't even being ised to it's fullest extent.

Once it's found you call the bubblers in to make sure it can't get away so it doesn't even matter if they're in a pos because thats when you bring in most of your corp/alliance

"The homogenization of EVE began when Gallente and Caldari started sharing a weapon system."---Vermaak Doe-- "Ohh squabbles ohh I love my dust trolls like watching an episode of Maury with less " Is he my Dad " but more of " My Neighbor took a dump on my lawn " good episode! pops more corn" ---Evernub--

nikon56
UnSkilleD Inc.
#60 - 2013-01-18 14:18:24 UTC
Drake Doe wrote:
A tactical asset that isn't even being ised to it's fullest extent.

Once it's found you call the bubblers in to make sure it can't get away so it doesn't even matter if they're in a pos because thats when you bring in most of your corp/alliance

yea, sure, and of course this prevent it from jumping right? or this works for the titans parked in lowsec?