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Which skills should NOT ever be trained to Level 5 ???
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Elektra Tatiana
K.O.R.
#1 - 2013-01-16 19:11:16 UTC
HI folks,

I am looking at taking some skills to Level 5 because I really don't have much anything else to train that I can think of, and I need something to kill some time (couple of weeks at least). But I don't want to train anything stupid to Level 5. So I thought it would be good to know what skills the EVE community thinks are skills that should NEVER be trained up to Level 5. This could also apply to skills that should never be trained past Level 2,3,4, etc. Or skills that should only go to Level 1.



Although this is a thread about what NOT to train to Level 5, I wanted to also ask about taking the following to Level 5 . . .
Rigs
Drone Specialization
Advanced Drone Interfacing
EW Drone Interfacing
Cloaking
Multitasking
Astrometric skills - (Acquisition, Pinpointing, Rangefinding)
Capital Emissions/Capital Remote Repair
Jump Fuel Conservation - (already have Calibration/Operation to L5)


I mostly fly Caldari. After that it would be Amarr, followed by Gallente. I have some skills for Minmatar, but rarely flown.
I spend most of my time in high sec, but have lived in low-sec and 0.0 where I plan to move back to at some future point in time.



Thank you in advance,
Elektra
Lost Greybeard
Drunken Yordles
#2 - 2013-01-16 20:34:14 UTC
Cloaking 5 is primarily trained for Recon ships, to reduce targeting delay out of cloak, where a split-second of difference can be pretty vital.

Rigs 5 can make some fits possible that weren't otherwise

Drone specialization 5 isn't terribly useful unless 2% damage is going to make a difference.

Maxing multitasking is good for Logistics pilots.

Every level in an astrometrics skill reduces the time to pinpoint your targets, including point V.

You need enough fuel conservation to get the number of jumps on your route, maybe that's V and maybe it isn't.

If you're going to use a capital repair platform, max the skill for the same reason you max the logistics skill to fly logistics.



... basically whether the time investment involved is worth it depends how much you use the skill involved and how vital it is to what you want to fly. Generally, if you like a role enough to fly a T2 or higher hull, then every skill involved in the core application of the ship is worth eventually getting to V. Whether it's a _priority_ to get things to V is, well, your personal judgement call.

(Except Advanced drone interfacing, I've never heard of anyone taking that to V)
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#3 - 2013-01-16 20:47:43 UTC
Elektra Tatiana wrote:
Rigs


Some rigging skills are fitting skills. Those definitely have their uses at 5. The others are more debatable.

Elektra Tatiana wrote:
Drone Specialization
Advanced Drone Interfacing
EW Drone Interfacing


I like having EWDI 5. 3km extra range isn't a whole lot, but it does get control range up to a nice round 60km. Drone specs are less vital and Amarr Drone Specialization is just kind of silly to take that high. ADI -- yeah, not so much.

Elektra Tatiana wrote:
Astrometric skills - (Acquisition, Pinpointing, Rangefinding)


Absolutely worth it if you scan a lot.

Elektra Tatiana wrote:
Capital Emissions/Capital Remote Repair


If you're a serious combat carrier pilot they're worthwhile. For everyday uses not so much.

The skills that come to mind as not being worthwhile at all to take to 5 are Tactical Shield Manipulation (which can weaken a shield tank, although the difference is negligible), Industrial Construction (which literally doesn't help with anything over 3), and Battleship Construction (ditto except 4 instead of 3).
Liam Inkuras
Furnace
#4 - 2013-01-16 23:13:55 UTC
Tactical Shield Manipulation. Reduces EHP slightly but involves lots of math and I'm not very good at math

I wear my goggles at night.

Any spelling/grammatical errors come complimentary with my typing on a phone
Elektra Tatiana
K.O.R.
#5 - 2013-01-17 01:00:25 UTC
Liam Inkuras wrote:
Tactical Shield Manipulation. Reduces EHP slightly but involves lots of math and I'm not very good at math



Think I trained that to Level 5 years ago, before anyone knew that it was actually bad for you. Lol.
Still haven't seen a good explanation on why it is so bad. Why doesn't CCP fix it?
Inkarr Hashur
Skyline Federation
#6 - 2013-01-17 02:00:26 UTC
Its only bad because it is a waste of skill points with completely zero benefit. Rank IV you can't get any bleed through at all until your shield is under 5%, (this is how it was explained to me). If you're sitting at that level long enough for bleed through to be an issue you're dead anyway. You don't tank at 5% shield. Rank V means you get no bleed through at all.
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#7 - 2013-01-17 06:23:12 UTC
Inkarr Hashur wrote:
Its only bad because it is a waste of skill points with completely zero benefit. Rank IV you can't get any bleed through at all until your shield is under 5%, (this is how it was explained to me). If you're sitting at that level long enough for bleed through to be an issue you're dead anyway. You don't tank at 5% shield. Rank V means you get no bleed through at all.


the reason bleeding through can be good is that your shields stay marginally higher, allowing a little bit of passive regen. as you may know, shield regeneration is not constant, and at 0% it is very very slow, whereas at 5% it's already somewhat faster. in an ideal situation, you would want to keep your shields at the regen sweet spot (25% or 30%, i keep forgetting) until you are at 1hp structure and only then sacrifice the rest of shields.

I should buy an Ishtar.
Mocam
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#8 - 2013-01-17 08:56:23 UTC
Lost Greybeard wrote:
Cloaking 5 is primarily trained for Recon ships, to reduce targeting delay out of cloak, where a split-second of difference can be pretty vital.
...


I'll just touch on this point a bit more.

Cloaking V - Base locking delay for the T2 covert cloak is 10 seconds. 10% off per level is 1 second per. This effects recon ships the most - they have the targeting delay after dropping cloak and are often used for "hot drop" style action.

There are a lot of ships that can align and warp out between 5 and 6 seconds (the difference when trained to 5 vs 4). If you get it to 5 they won't get away but vastly more won't get this chance outside of that 1 second range. A "nice to have" edge for sneak-tackling.
Caldari 5
D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F. S.A.S
Affirmative.
#9 - 2013-01-17 13:35:40 UTC
Lost Greybeard wrote:
Maxing multitasking is good for Logistics pilots.

Maybe I have missed something somewhere, but iirc you start with a Max Targets of 1, Targeting skill adds 1 per level and then Multitasking adds 1 per level. Logistics ships have a max Targets of 10, which means that you would hit that at Multitasking IV?

Lost Greybeard wrote:
(Except Advanced drone interfacing, I've never heard of anyone taking that to V)

I have an alt that trained Advanced Drone Interfacing to V, just so that he could say that he had all drone skills to V.... and then CCP added Fighter Bombers and Salvage Drones :(
Zor'katar
Matari Recreation
#10 - 2013-01-17 14:00:36 UTC
Caldari 5 wrote:
Maybe I have missed something somewhere, but iirc you start with a Max Targets of 1, Targeting skill adds 1 per level and then Multitasking adds 1 per level. Logistics ships have a max Targets of 10, which means that you would hit that at Multitasking IV?

Almost... you start with 2 targets, so Multitasking III is 10 targets.
Caldari 5
D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F. S.A.S
Affirmative.
#11 - 2013-01-17 14:15:11 UTC
Zor'katar wrote:
Caldari 5 wrote:
Maybe I have missed something somewhere, but iirc you start with a Max Targets of 1, Targeting skill adds 1 per level and then Multitasking adds 1 per level. Logistics ships have a max Targets of 10, which means that you would hit that at Multitasking IV?

Almost... you start with 2 targets, so Multitasking III is 10 targets.

I stand corrected, however my underlying point was that Multitasking doesn't really need to goto V, I don't believe that I've seen a ship that has a Max Targets of 12.
(Yes I know that there is Modules that expand the Max Targets, but very few people fit them because they use a high slot that you'd be better off fitting a Weapon or a Neut/etc into)
Zor'katar
Matari Recreation
#12 - 2013-01-17 14:23:46 UTC
Caldari 5 wrote:
(Yes I know that there is Modules that expand the Max Targets, but very few people fit them because they use a high slot that you'd be better off fitting a Weapon or a Neut/etc into)

There's also a low slot item. I agree with you, though. I have Multitasking III and have no current plans on pushing it higher.
Shaotuk
Sin City Enterprises
#13 - 2013-01-18 04:11:17 UTC
MT IV is good for an incursion logi pilot, because it allows the targeting of all 12 ships in a VG fleet.
Hot McDropper
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#14 - 2013-01-18 14:50:07 UTC
Nearly all skill training is worth it if you've got nothing better to train.

Rigs - Might as well. The weapon ones are beneficial for improving fitting requirements. The Armor and Shield ones are always beneficial to take to 5.

Drone Specialization - Yeah, train these. At least for Min/Gal drones. They're useful on just about any ship you will fly, unlike the gun/missile specs.

Advanced Drone Interfacing - Meh. If you're a PVE carrier pilot, it is useful. Otherwise, don't bother.

EW Drone Interfacing - I trained this for the extra range. I approve.

Cloaking - This is worth taking to 5 when you're at 150mil SP in sub-capitals only. Opens up the concord cloak device, which was nice at one time if you were into supercaps. Maybe it still is cool for that, I don't know.

Multitasking - Not really a good reason to take this to 5. Level 4 lets you max out a T2 Triage carrier's targets. And you probably aren't going to waste slots on additional targeting modules. But who knows, maybe you like to re-fit off other carriers mid fight and can spare the slots for more targets? This is one I will prob never take to 5 on any character.

Astrometric skills - (Acquisition, Pinpointing, Rangefinding) - Absolutely worth it. Acquisition isn't that hot of a skill but the other two are super helpful to have at 5.

Capital Emissions/Capital Remote Repair - Yes. Triage archons should always be 100% maxed out. If you aren't into that, train for something else first and come back to this later.

Jump Fuel Conservation - (already have Calibration/Operation to L5) - I did this on two chars... Triage Archons should be maxed out. Not really needed, I only did it to carry more Stront & to get better economy on the JF. Its not worthless, but not exactly needed either.
Salpad
Carebears with Attitude
#15 - 2013-01-18 19:34:35 UTC
Elektra Tatiana wrote:
Astrometric skills - (Acquisition, Pinpointing, Rangefinding)


Two of the probing skillz are highly useful to train to 5. The one for probe scan strength, and the one for scan deviation.

The other two, for probe scan time, and for the number of probes you can use, are pointless to train to 5. As far as I know, it's even pointless to train the number-of-probes skill to the point where you can use more than 7 probes. I use 5 probes and that works well for me, but I've heard that some pilots use 3D spatial configurations of 6 or even 7 probes. As far as I know, training the number-of-probes skill to 5 lets you use something like eight probes, and since most of us use only five or so at a time, that was a great waste of time.

The scan time one is even worse. I did train it, but I don't seem to get any benefit from it at all. As far as I know, several years ago, probe scanning was very slow, with each scan process taking many minutes. In such a situation it made sense - it was worthwhile - for a player to spend a week or so to train the time skill to 4, even a bit more than a month to train it to 5. But ever since I started scanning, each scan attempt takes only a few seconds, so it's completely pointless to train that skill, except in order to meet prerequisites for high-end probes or launchers.



Some other skillz not worth training at all, except to meet prerequisites for modules or ship hulls:

Electronics Uprades
Energy Grid Upgrades

I think I trained both those to 5 some years ago. I've played for a long time, and sometimes just train something that sounds like it might be useful, but in these cases I feel pretty cheated.

Shield Upgrades is a bit like the two above, except I do suspect it's worthwhile because it reduces the Powergrid need of Shield Extenders, and large ones require quite a bit of PG. At least I won't sit here and say it's stupid to train it to 4, if you're a shield tanker. But for many it might not be worth training to 5.
Salpad
Carebears with Attitude
#16 - 2013-01-18 19:38:02 UTC
Elektra Tatiana wrote:

Drone Specialization
Advanced Drone Interfacing


Drone specialization to 5 is very worthwhile, at least for your one preferred race, and especially if you use Light drones a lot. They don't do much damage, so you want to give them as big a damage boost as you can. I trained Minmatar Drone Specialization to 5 many years ago (early 2009 as I recall), and eventually took the other 3 races from 4 to 5 as well (maybe a year or a year and a half ago).

Drone Interfacing gives +20% drone damage per level. It's obviously good to train to five. However, you mention Advanced Drone Interfacing, which is only pertinent to capital ships, and I don't know anything about those. I'm just mentioning this in case you had in mind asking about the non-Advanced version of the skill (some people confuse the two - I do so myself sometimes).
Ford Chicago
Ziz Zag Ziggurat
#17 - 2013-01-18 19:44:37 UTC
Salpad wrote:
Elektra Tatiana wrote:
Astrometric skills - (Acquisition, Pinpointing, Rangefinding)

The other two, for probe scan time, and for the number of probes you can use, are pointless to train to 5. As far as I know, it's even pointless to train the number-of-probes skill to the point where you can use more than 7 probes. I use 5 probes and that works well for me, but I've heard that some pilots use 3D spatial configurations of 6 or even 7 probes. As far as I know, training the number-of-probes skill to 5 lets you use something like eight probes, and since most of us use only five or so at a time, that was a great waste of time.


The value of Astrometrics V (the skill that lets you use more probes) is that Astrometrics V unlocks:
Deep Space Scanner Probe
Sisters Deep Space Scanner Probe
Core Probe Launcher II
Expanded Probe Launcher II

The Deep Space probes allow quick scans of large areas and the T2 launchers have a 5% strength bonus compared to T1, although the Sisters launcher has a 10% bonus.
Salpad
Carebears with Attitude
#18 - 2013-01-18 21:31:31 UTC
Ford Chicago wrote:

The value of Astrometrics V (the skill that lets you use more probes) is that Astrometrics V unlocks:
Deep Space Scanner Probe
Sisters Deep Space Scanner Probe
Core Probe Launcher II
Expanded Probe Launcher II

The Deep Space probes allow quick scans of large areas and the T2 launchers have a 5% strength bonus compared to T1, although the Sisters launcher has a 10% bonus.


Thanks for pointing that out. Prerequisite effects are indeed worth taking into account. It's not always only about direct bonuses.
Ryuce
#19 - 2013-01-19 01:39:10 UTC
Shaotuk wrote:
MT IV is good for an incursion logi pilot, because it allows the targeting of all 12 ships in a VG fleet.

I can't figure out whether this guy is trolling or clueless.

Anyways; -1
Paikis
Vapour Holdings
#20 - 2013-01-19 05:22:14 UTC
Salpad wrote:
Elektra Tatiana wrote:
Astrometric skills - (Acquisition, Pinpointing, Rangefinding)


Two of the probing skillz are highly useful to train to 5. The one for probe scan strength, and the one for scan deviation.

The other two, for probe scan time, and for the number of probes you can use, are pointless to train to 5. As far as I know, it's even pointless to train the number-of-probes skill to the point where you can use more than 7 probes. I use 5 probes and that works well for me, but I've heard that some pilots use 3D spatial configurations of 6 or even 7 probes. As far as I know, training the number-of-probes skill to 5 lets you use something like eight probes, and since most of us use only five or so at a time, that was a great waste of time.

The scan time one is even worse. I did train it, but I don't seem to get any benefit from it at all. As far as I know, several years ago, probe scanning was very slow, with each scan process taking many minutes. In such a situation it made sense - it was worthwhile - for a player to spend a week or so to train the time skill to 4, even a bit more than a month to train it to 5. But ever since I started scanning, each scan attempt takes only a few seconds, so it's completely pointless to train that skill, except in order to meet prerequisites for high-end probes or launchers.


Don't do a lot of scanning do you? :)

As someone who lives in a wormhole, and often jumps into a system with upwards of 20 signatures to scan, having all of these skills at V is huge (I have a scan-***** alt), as is having the implants.

You *can* scan with Astrometrics II and nothing else... but once you've played with all Vs and implants, using an un-skilled character is physically painful.

Acquisition V will drop your base scan time from 10 seconds to 5 seconds. Doesn't sound like much, but when you're trying to get a warp in on someone, it can make a huge difference. And those systems with 20+ sigs in them become much faster to scan down.
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