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Can't believe how many CSM/CCP employees want a theme park

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Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#221 - 2013-01-17 19:17:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Natsett Amuinn
Whitehound wrote:
Vaju Enki wrote:
Whitehound wrote:
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
The games economy is not built on that vision of EVE.

It is a free economy. How is this unfit for anything?

Supply and Demand?

So what?

As long as something stays inside the theme park is it of no consequence for the rest of EVE. And once it leaves the theme park can it be shot. There is no problem unless you have made yourself depend upon Jita for your low- and null-sec needs. If so then there is still a bit of a carebear in you who needs to be killed.

THAT IS NOT POSSIBLE.

High sec is not on a seperate server.
It is not segregated by it's own economic structure from the rest of the world.

What happens in high sec impacts every other reagion of EVE.


If you want a themepark go play a ******* themepark.
I did not come to EVE to play your EVE. I came to play the EVE we have.


You are simply wrong.


So stupid.
WE HAVE NO CHOICE BUT TO DEPEND UPON JITA.
Some of you have no ******* clue how EVE really works. You've stuck youself in one area and only see what happens when you play. YOUR MISSIONING IMPACTS THE REST OF THE GAME. Isk is not confined to the region it's made, nor any other item in EVE.
Whitehound
#222 - 2013-01-17 19:18:31 UTC
Vaju Enki wrote:
Whitehound wrote:
Vaju Enki wrote:
Whitehound wrote:
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
The games economy is not built on that vision of EVE.

It is a free economy. How is this unfit for anything?

Supply and Demand?

So what?

As long as something stays inside the theme park is it of no consequence for the rest of EVE. And once it leaves the theme park can it be shot. There is no problem unless you have made yourself depend upon Jita for your low- and null-sec needs. If so then there is still a bit of a carebear in you who needs to be killed.


Have fun selling anything to anyone, since no one needs anything, since nothing gets destroyed.

Ups, i just made a summary of what happened in UO.

I am pretty sure there will be continues destruction in- and outside the theme park. Only inside the theme park would the losses not occur from PvP but only PvE.

Besides, only because my tea leafs are stronger than your tarot cards doesn't mean it is going to happen.

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
Beekeeper Bob
Beekeepers Anonymous
#223 - 2013-01-17 19:20:48 UTC
Kainotomiu Ronuken wrote:
Mister S Burke wrote:
Call if griefing please, just man up already and drop the euphemisms. 99% of the gaming world hates griefing (not pvp) and video games did not become mainstream in the 1990's because games were all grief fests. It sounds to me like the employees understand the concept of evolve or die and let's face it, griefers are an ever shrinking small minority. Everyone used to say they wanted "hardcore" free for all or no rules. Everytime a game is harcore in the griefing aspect everyone gets prison stomped and they all quit.
I don't think this game hinges on some griefers ability to suicide gank an AFK autopiloter or a miner in hisec. I pvp and frankly it would be nice to autopilot in hisec and go make a sandwhich or get a drink. Removing the lame suicide ganking does not equate to instant theme park.

And ten years of griefing later, EVE is still growing.

There's something wrong with your argument here. People are attracted to EVE because it is one of the very few games left that has not eschewed all meaningful player interaction in the name of stamping out griefing.



What game have you been playing? Up until this last patch, Average player hours were down 25% from their peak. The patch had a lot of promise, but is already broken in a number of ways.
(And yes, I know, CCP claims to be selling all these subscriptions, but if that is true, why are many of them not playing?)

The games problems have little to do with making High-sec safer though, If CCP goes that route, I think it will backfire on them.
What they should do, and should have done long ago, is change the game mechanics to stop the proliferation of alts.
Unfortunately, I'm not even sure how they would approach it now, or if they are even capable.

I understand the business model. It's very common these days, get a customer, then find ways to get him to pay more....
But it's damaging to a game that thrives on interaction.
When I joined this game originally, NPC corps channels were lively places, lots of people talking, discussing various aspects of the game. You could learn a lot about the basics just by watching, and then getting involved yourself.
Now, you create a new character, or drop to an NPC corp for whatever reason, it's a dead-zone with 100's of alts, not saying anything. Think about the reaction of a new player to this? He sees lots of people, but no one will talk to him....

The NPC corps are part of the new player experience, without that interaction, CCP probably loses a lot more new players, than it gains having bunches of alts.

Again, I don't have a solution for this, it's been going on so long, I'm not sure CCP could survive the change...


Signature removed - CCP Eterne
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#224 - 2013-01-17 19:22:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Natsett Amuinn
Whitehound wrote:
Vaju Enki wrote:
Whitehound wrote:
[quote=Vaju Enki][quote=Whitehound]
So what?

As long as something stays inside the theme park is it of no consequence for the rest of EVE. And once it leaves the theme park can it be shot. There is no problem unless you have made yourself depend upon Jita for your low- and null-sec needs. If so then there is still a bit of a carebear in you who needs to be killed.


Have fun selling anything to anyone, since no one needs anything, since nothing gets destroyed.

Ups, i just made a summary of what happened in UO.

I am pretty sure there will be continues destruction in- and outside the theme park. Only inside the theme park would the losses not occur from PvP but only PvE.

Besides, only because my tea leafs are stronger than your tarot cards doesn't mean it is going to happen.

The only way they could ever do what you think they could, is by removing you from TQ, and that's never going to happen.

There is no such thing as an indipendant high sec.
Most of the crap you fly isn't even possible without null and low, just like it's not possible in null or low without high.

How in the world is this lost on so many of you?
Whitehound
#225 - 2013-01-17 19:28:41 UTC
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
THAT IS NOT POSSIBLE.

High sec is not on a seperate server.
It is not segregated by it's own economic structure from the rest of the world.

What happens in high sec impacts every other reagion of EVE.


If you want a themepark go play a ******* themepark.
I did not come to EVE to play your EVE. I came to play the EVE we have.


You are simply wrong.


So stupid.
WE HAVE NO CHOICE BUT TO DEPEND UPON JITA.
Some of you have no ******* clue how EVE really works. You've stuck youself in one area and only see what happens when you play. YOUR MISSIONING IMPACTS THE REST OF THE GAME. Isk is not confined to the region it's made, nor any other item in EVE.

The taxes and fees will continue to function as ISK sinks and take ISKs out of the game. If you fear that most of the trading continues to take place inside a high-sec theme park then most of the ISKs will also disappear there. Seems just fair, no?

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#226 - 2013-01-17 19:29:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Natsett Amuinn wrote:


Corp cration services?
Why does anyone need you to form a corp for them? Becaue they're trying to circumvent something.

I understand that you found some emergent way to play the game, and that's cool, but it still boils down to abusing the corporation mechanic. The reason to form a corporation should not be for the purpose of circumventing other game mechanics.

Being able to game the system isn't helping the game. You should have a vested interst in forming a corp in EVE . The only way to do that is to make you responcible for other people.

CCP lets you get like 3000 guys in a single corp.
Yet EVE is overrun by one man, and alt corps who just disband when they get decced. You should be growing your corporation, and if you don't want to deal with a war dec, you shouldn't have formed it in the first place.

The fist step in fixing it, is removing one man corpations form the game.
I'm sure that the way people are using corporations in EVE, is not what CCP intended.


I can see where you're coming from, I certainly understand and respect your point of view. While I sell corps with standings to erect a POS in hisec, I'm merely leveraging my standings with 2 factions to supplement my imaginary space monies. What others do with the corp after purchase is none of my concern, as I see it they're the ones shortcutting any corporation mechanics by not having to do the grind for standings. TBH the income isn't that great from it but it allows me to fund my alts suicidal tendencies when confronted with "fruit that's ripe for the picking" without overly infringing on my other activities.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#227 - 2013-01-17 19:30:00 UTC
Natsett Amuinn wrote:


How in the world is this lost on so many of you?


Why not let them have their themepark. a REAL one, where they can mine all day but you cant sell, or give away the minerals they mine nor can they use them to build stuff. Where they can mission all day but get no isk, no lp, no salvage, no loot, no nothing. Or maybe not even that, they could just fly around high sec in "observer mode" and look at pretty stuff.

What they really want is Carte blanche to do things in the game that affect everyone else without having to deal with being negatively affected, having that cake and eating it to. They're too short sighted to understand why this wouldn't just protect them, it would eventually screw them.
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#228 - 2013-01-17 19:34:31 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Natsett Amuinn wrote:


Corp cration services?
Why does anyone need you to form a corp for them? Becaue they're trying to circumvent something.

I understand that you found some emergent way to play the game, and that's cool, but it still boils down to abusing the corporation mechanic. The reason to form a corporation should not be for the purpose of circumventing other game mechanics.

Being able to game the system isn't helping the game. You should have a vested interst in forming a corp in EVE . The only way to do that is to make you responcible for other people.

CCP lets you get like 3000 guys in a single corp.
Yet EVE is overrun by one man, and alt corps who just disband when they get decced. You should be growing your corporation, and if you don't want to deal with a war dec, you shouldn't have formed it in the first place.

The fist step in fixing it, is removing one man corpations form the game.
I'm sure that the way people are using corporations in EVE, is not what CCP intended.


I can see where you're coming from, I certainly understand and respect your point of view. While I sell corps with standings to erect a POS in hisec, I'm merely leveraging my standings with 2 factions to supplement my imaginary space monies. What others do with the corp after purchase is none of my concern, as I see it they're the ones shortcutting any corporation mechanics by not having to do the grind for standings. TBH the income isn't that great from it but it allows me to fund my alts suicidal tendencies when confronted with "fruit that's ripe for the picking" without overly impinging on my other activities.

I think we're pretty much on the same line here. It's not really what you're doing, but the guy that uses you.

Frankly, it seems like an oversight that I can go to you to get a station without needing to ge tthe proper standing. The standing requirement should be tied to ownership, not just whether or not you can anchor.

What should be happening is you're clearing out abandoned stations, erecting your own, securing it, and then selling it. Space is at a premium, there's only so many moons and that means so many PoS's. They should be sold based on that, not the circumventing of mechanics that were intended to be used to govern whether or not it can be placed to begin with.
Merouk Baas
#229 - 2013-01-17 19:36:43 UTC
This thread is the same as the gun control discussion that goes on in the The Scope NPC corp chat channel every day just about now. Lots of posting, extremely pointless. Why are you guys arguing?
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#230 - 2013-01-17 19:38:53 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Natsett Amuinn wrote:


How in the world is this lost on so many of you?


Why not let them have their themepark. a REAL one, where they can mine all day but you cant sell, or give away the minerals they mine nor can they use them to build stuff. Where they can mission all day but get no isk, no lp, no salvage, no loot, no nothing. Or maybe not even that, they could just fly around high sec in "observer mode" and look at pretty stuff.

What they really want is Carte blanche to do things in the game that affect everyone else without having to deal with being negatively affected, having that cake and eating it to. They're too short sighted to understand why this wouldn't just protect them, it would eventually screw them.

Now this I can get behind.

The guy that insists it's ok for high sec to be pvp free has NO IDEA how the games economy works.


While they're at it.
You should be required to leave high sec and play in low or null for a period of time before you can post on the forum. To many people have zero experience ouside of running missions or building stuff in high sec, but feel comfortable enough to make a suggestion without even know how the game really works.

And there's enough of those guys that it gives the wrong impression of a "problem".


I don't even understand how anyone can think that running missions in high sec has no impact on the rest of the game. Those guys shouldn't be smart enough to play EVE. How in the world are they even managing.
Captain Tardbar
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#231 - 2013-01-17 19:41:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Captain Tardbar
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
Another studio though that if they just removed more of the PvP, then more people would play.
It didn't work for Origian and EA, it won't work for CCP.

CCP is doing exactly what every other MMO development studio does. Look at what everyone esle is doing, and even though it's not worked for them, it must work for us. Thinking you can be the exception to the rule never works for anyone.


Dear CCP,
If you really want to make "more", if you really want a million subscriber EVE, create NEW content.
Drastic changes have not benefitted any other MMO, it will not benefit you.
Once you make that change, you will never get back what you lose.


Let's be realistic here. Back in the day I would gank people all the time in Ultima Online and in fact I would take newbies out in the woods to show them my house only to kill them once we got far enough out of town so they couldn't run and call guards.

Yes that was fun, but it probaly killed subscriptions.

I'll admit I had a blast but I personally probaly got a handful of newbies to quit Ultima Online after stealing all their stuff.

The truth of the matter is that Ultima Online subs eventually went down because of World of Warcraft in which you couldn't PvP on most servers except for designated areas and events.

I want to also state that even though I say that I also tend to enjoy anti-social behavior and find it funny when things like that happen....

BUT I am being a realist here and stating "does a bear poop in the woods?" when it comes to business models.

If EvE gets and retains more players in hi-sec by removing pvp from hi sec then logically they will do so in order to have a high player base and earn more money for the company.

If EvE ever goes public, the shareholders (which will be most likley large investors instead of individual players) will want a return on their investment and demand that EvE increase their subscription method by any means possible.

What will CCP do? We don't know for sure, but your cries on the forums one way or another will not be considered as much as subscription data returns.

Only a fraction of the player base uses the forums so it is unlikley they make major changes based on what the forums say.

I am just stating what I believe to be true...

Ganking/greifing causes subcription loss and CCP wants higher subscription numbers.

Players don't want to be pooped on and when you gank/grief players you are pooping on them. Eventually with enough poop on their face, they will just quit.

So they'll do whatever they think will increase subscriptions.

Looking to talk on VOIP with other EVE players? Are you new and need help with EVE (welfare) or looking for advice? Looking for adversarial debate with angry people?

Captain Tardbar's Voice Discord Server
Kainotomiu Ronuken
koahisquad
#232 - 2013-01-17 19:43:27 UTC
Beekeeper Bob wrote:
What game have you been playing? Up until this last patch, Average player hours were down 25% from their peak. The patch had a lot of promise, but is already broken in a number of ways.
(And yes, I know, CCP claims to be selling all these subscriptions, but if that is true, why are many of them not playing?)

Yeah. From these graphs, it looks like the number of players online was steadily growing for nine years, and then CCP started messing around with Incarna and exhumer buffs. Then they started focusing on actual player interaction again and BOOM. Retribution is topping the charts again.

Beekeeper Bob wrote:
The games problems have little to do with making High-sec safer though, If CCP goes that route, I think it will backfire on them.
What they should do, and should have done long ago, is change the game mechanics to stop the proliferation of alts.
Unfortunately, I'm not even sure how they would approach it now, or if they are even capable.

I hardly think that CCP is likely to try and deter players from purchasing more accounts. In fact, they've already said that they're planning ways to make multiple accounts easier to handle.
DeMichael Crimson
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#233 - 2013-01-17 19:43:43 UTC


Quote:
Can't believe how many CSM/CCP employees want a theme park


Shocked

This is news to me, course I haven't seen the CSM minutes nor do I care to read them.

Anyway, I thought they wanted to turn Eve Online into Griefer Online.

Wasn't the WarDec / Crimewatch / Bounty / FW changes supposed to make this game a Free-For-All Shooting Gallery?

'The Plan' | California Eve Players | Proposal - The Endless Battle
Kainotomiu Ronuken
koahisquad
#234 - 2013-01-17 19:46:26 UTC
DeMichael Crimson wrote:


Quote:
Can't believe how many CSM/CCP employees want a theme park


Shocked

This is news to me, course I haven't seen the CSM minutes nor do I care to read them.

Anyway, I thought they wanted to turn Eve Online into Griefer Online.

Wasn't the WarDec / Crimewatch / Bounty / FW changes supposed to make this game a Free-For-All Shooting Gallery?

No, they weren't. Thanks for your interesting and constructive post though.
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#235 - 2013-01-17 19:48:11 UTC
Don't worry. We'll probably see mutual consent to wardecs, requirement of consent for in-corp killing and a heavily nerfed form of suicide ganking with global 5-second CONCORD response be rendered the only way to kill something in hisec.

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Whitehound
#236 - 2013-01-17 19:49:21 UTC
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
... has NO IDEA how the games economy works.
... without even know how the game really works.

Lol

Loss is meaningful. Therefore is the loss of meaning likewise meaningful. It is the source of all trolling.
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#237 - 2013-01-17 19:51:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Andski
The playerbase as a whole has shifted towards "limit PvP to lowsec and nullsec because hisec is supposed to be perfectly safe." That's the vocal minority who will likely end up getting their way. The game won't grow as a result of hisec being perfectly safe, but carebears' wallets (and thus the size of their cashout) will.

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
#238 - 2013-01-17 19:53:38 UTC
Captain Tardbar wrote:
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
Another studio though that if they just removed more of the PvP, then more people would play.
It didn't work for Origian and EA, it won't work for CCP.

CCP is doing exactly what every other MMO development studio does. Look at what everyone esle is doing, and even though it's not worked for them, it must work for us. Thinking you can be the exception to the rule never works for anyone.


Dear CCP,
If you really want to make "more", if you really want a million subscriber EVE, create NEW content.
Drastic changes have not benefitted any other MMO, it will not benefit you.
Once you make that change, you will never get back what you lose.


Let's be realistic here. Back in the day I would gank people all the time in Ultima Online and in fact I would take newbies out in the woods to show them my house only to kill them once we got far enough out of town so they couldn't run and call guards.

Yes that was fun, but it probaly killed subscriptions.

I'll admit I had a blast but I personally probaly got a handful of newbies to quit Ultima Online after stealing all their stuff.

The truth of the matter is that Ultima Online subs eventually went down because of World of Warcraft in which you couldn't PvP on most servers except for designated areas and events.

I want to also state that even though I say that I also tend to enjoy anti-social behavior and find it funny when things like that happen....

BUT I am being a realist here and stating "does a bear poop in the woods?" when it comes to business models.

If EvE gets and retains more players in hi-sec by removing pvp from hi sec then logically they will do so in order to have a high player base and earn more money for the company.

If EvE ever goes public, the shareholders (which will be most likley large investors instead of individual players) will want a return on their investment and demand that EvE increase their subscription method by any means possible.

What will CCP do? We don't know for sure, but your cries on the forums one way or another will not be considered as much as subscription data returns.

Only a fraction of the player base uses the forums so it is unlikley they make major changes based on what the forums say.

I am just stating what I believe to be true...

Ganking/greifing causes subcription loss and CCP wants higher subscription numbers.

Players don't want to be pooped on and when you gank/grief players you are pooping on them. Eventually with enough poop on their face, they will just quit.

So they'll do whatever they think will increase subscriptions.


People like you keep saying the some old carebear tales, but the truth is EvE Online keeps growing. If they ever cave in to carebear themeparkers , EvE will die.

In a weird way, i really pity your kind, you will never understand the beauty of sandbox mmo-rpg's.

The Tears Must Flow
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#239 - 2013-01-17 20:03:04 UTC
Whitehound wrote:
Tubrug1 wrote:
Removing suicide ganking and non-consensual wardecs does infact turn the game into a theme park.

No, not the entire game. I don't see DUST players as a threat to EVE even when they cannot shoot our space ships directly. For all I care could DUST514 be a theme park.

If then high-sec turns into a theme park and players could mine there forever, then it is also not different from those magically reappearing asteroids that you can find everywhere. And just like miners need to get the ore out of the asteroids would players need to get it into low-sec, where they again can be shot.

If all this fear over a theme park is because of a loss of space in which players can PvP then it really only needs more space and new regions in low- and null-sec.



Massively missing the point, and ignoring the fact the the rest of the game is utterly economically dependent on hisec

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Natsett Amuinn
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#240 - 2013-01-17 20:03:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Natsett Amuinn
No company succeeds by alienatng their consumer base.

WE are the consumer base. NEW players are wanted, but are not the consumer base.

A drastic change to the game will cause a mass exit of current players. That will never be forgotten, and it will only stick to CCP until the day they close up EVE.


The PvP is not what's keeping EVE from growing.
You grow the game by developing new and engaging content, not by bastardizing what you already have.


And for the reccord, it like ONE dev (solomon, who should have never said the **** he said) and TWO CSM's. The rest of the deves and the CSM were very much against the idea of any drastic change to the high sec war decs, and very openly stated that if you can't defend yourself you should get more friends, not have mechanics designed to protect you.

In fact, Soniclover was very vocal that this was not something that should EVER happen, and that you should never be safe because you're in high sec or be able to exist in your own little world and not by impated by others while having large impacts on them.


PS; And again, this is why there should never have been the ability to form one man corps. People aren't being encouraged to grow, they just want a small guild of familly and friends and to be able to have their own "guild housing".

Before they can fix anything, they need to eliminate the way people are abusing the corporation mechanics. Both NPC and player run.

PPS: The friends and familly corp is prety much the root of the whole "middle ground" thing that was mentioned. People who want to have a small corp, but don't want the war dec and pvp mechanics that go along with it.

It shouldn't even be a topic of discussion within EVE development.