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A Man does X because of Y (or why you're all terrible)
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Seriphyn Inhonores
Elusenian Cooperative
#1 - 2013-01-17 15:18:44 UTC
A Federation citizen decides to join the army to fight against foreign invasion. His decision is primarily influenced by the articles in the Federation Constitution, and a particularly charismatic politician. He does not give it much independent thought, and simply goes ahead because all the third-party sources indicate this is the best decision. Planets are pillaged and thousands die due to militarism combined with liberal relativism.

A Caldari citizen decides to join the army to fight against foreign domination. His decision is primarily influenced by the fact that the megacorporations said so and that his fellow citizens compelled him to. He does not give it much independent thought, and simply goes ahead because all third-party sources indicate this is the best decision. Planets are pillaged and thousands die due to contempt for foreigners combined with social selectionism.

A Republic citizen decides to join the army to fight against slavery. His decision is primarily influenced by history and his coincedence of birth into a tribe. He does not give it much independent thought, and simply goes ahead because all third-party sources indicate this is the best decision. Planets are pillaged and thousands die due to vengeance combined with remorselessness.

An Amarrian citizen decidies to join the army to fight against heresy. His decision is primarily influenced by Scriptures, as well as the word of God through the Emperor. He does not give it much independent thought, and simply goes ahead because all third-party sources indicate this is the best decision. Planets are pillaged and thousands die due to religion combined with zealotry.

If you cannot see the double standards in arguing against the Amarr faith or any other religion while still supporting your own empire unquestionably, then...well...nothing. It's just a pity.
Mensha Khael Crow
House Murder
#2 - 2013-01-17 15:24:37 UTC
Messier Inhonores. Consider yourself to be in a position to make some small request from C0URT. With normal Caveats, naturally.
Our righteousness is evident in the failures of the heathen, God keep us from falling prey to their weaknesses.
Saede Riordan
Alexylva Paradox
#3 - 2013-01-17 15:39:28 UTC
Good thing I'm not 'supporting my empire unquestioningly' then.

Fear and Loathing in Internet Spaceships
Sepherim
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#4 - 2013-01-17 15:39:41 UTC
I understand the basic argument, and there is some truth in it. Though, I believe it is a simplified argument that leaves too many elements outside for it to be complete. First, not all citizens join their armies due to those arguments. I can't speak for the rest, but I've known people in the Navy that had enlisted for the pay, for glory, out of duty to the Empire, because of family tradition, to impress a girl, to escape from his life at home... and hundreds other stories. So yes, many may join because they want to spread His word, but that's not the only reason you find people in the Navy.

An, second, the argument relies completely on the base that people join the military without critical thought. Many do, indeed, their heads clear with the ideas that society puts in there. But many others have thought about it a lot, analyzed different courses of action, and finally decided that was the propper one. And even those that act as their society wants them to, may have actually given it a lot of independent thought before moving in to do as they are expected to.

So, as much as I can understand the message "don't criticize the other without understanding your own flawed origin", I believe it is an incomplete statement in this case that isn't completely appropriate. And that is considering you could even be independent of your own flawed origin, which probably isn't possible. As a sociologist in the university once said "I am myself and my circumstances"*.


*((OOC: the quote is from Ortega y Gasset, a spanish sociologist, but I'm sure it's a thought that could very well exist in EVE))

Sepherim Catillah Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris Liuteneant Ex-Imperial Navy Imperator Commander
Jinari Otsito
Otsito Mining and Manufacture
#5 - 2013-01-17 16:03:27 UTC
Saede Riordan wrote:
Good thing I'm not 'supporting my empire unquestioningly' then.

Prime Node. Ask me about augmentation.
Wei Soikutsu
Doomheim
#6 - 2013-01-17 16:07:20 UTC
Seriphyn Inhonores wrote:
A Caldari citizen decides to join the army to fight against foreign domination. His decision is primarily influenced by the fact that the megacorporations said so and that his fellow citizens compelled him to. He does not give it much independent thought, and simply goes ahead because all third-party sources indicate this is the best decision. Planets are pillaged and thousands die due to contempt for foreigners combined with social selectionism.

Heiian and the Way are a little more complicated than what you present here, Msr. Inhonores, and under different circumstances I might have tried to explain this to you in detail.

However, the circumstances seem to be that there is currently quite a bit of debate raging where neither side has the slightest desire to be convinced by the other, or understand the other's point of view, or even agree on what is being debated, and they are being quite loud about it nevertheless.

I'll read the intent of the entire message as a general exhortation to take a step back and consider, and in doing so, agree.

Provisionally.
Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#7 - 2013-01-17 16:23:03 UTC
Saede Riordan wrote:
Good thing I'm not 'supporting my empire unquestioningly' then.


exactly this.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders
Bataav
Intaki Liberation Front
Intaki Prosperity Initiative
#8 - 2013-01-17 18:59:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Bataav
Very thought provoking. I like it.

If others are free to add their own...

A Secessionist decides not to join the army, but instead resists foreign invasion and domination by other means. His decision is primarily influenced by the failings of the Federation and yes, by those of the Assembly. He is known for his independent thought, and considers a range of third-party sources before taking what he believes to be the best course of action. Planets are pillaged and thousands die due to the cycle of conflict in someone else's war, despite his calls for peace.

How did I do? Smile

Bataav

Mahesha | Intaki Liberation Front & Intaki Prosperity Initiative
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#9 - 2013-01-17 20:17:31 UTC
Bataav wrote:
Very thought provoking. I like it.

If others are free to add their own...

A Secessionist decides not to join the army, but instead resists foreign invasion and domination by other means. His decision is primarily influenced by the failings of the Federation and yes, by those of the Assembly. He is known for his independent thought, and considers a range of third-party sources before taking what he believes to be the best course of action. Planets are pillaged and thousands die due to the cycle of conflict in someone else's war, despite his calls for peace.

How did I do? Smile


The last sentence is supposed to paint the negative impact the actions of the character have on the rest of the cluster, if I understand correctly.
Evi Polevhia
Phoenix Naval Operations
Phoenix Naval Systems
#10 - 2013-01-17 21:33:56 UTC
Question the State. Question the Milita. Question the Empires. Question CONCORD. Question the SCC. Question the wars.

Question the motives of the Capsuleers. And the fate of us all if we don't change.

There has to be a better way then what we see before us.
Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#11 - 2013-01-17 23:05:21 UTC
A capsuleer decides to post on the IGS to rail against moral absolutism. His decision is primarily influenced by his desire for recognition, and a particularly obnoxious superiority complex. He does not give it much thought, and simply goes ahead because he believes assuming a position of false moderation will allow him to criticise everyone on all sides without retaliation. Eyes are rolled and thousands sigh due to disingenuity combined with moral relativism.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
Jinari Otsito
Otsito Mining and Manufacture
#12 - 2013-01-17 23:25:59 UTC
Andreus Ixiris wrote:
A capsuleer decides to post on the IGS to rail against moral absolutism. His decision is primarily influenced by his desire for recognition, and a particularly obnoxious superiority complex. He does not give it much thought, and simply goes ahead because he believes assuming a position of false moderation will allow him to criticise everyone on all sides without retaliation. Eyes are rolled and thousands sigh due to disingenuity combined with moral relativism.


Stop making me like you. It makes my teeth itch.

Prime Node. Ask me about augmentation.
Stitcher
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#13 - 2013-01-17 23:47:24 UTC
Evi Polevhia wrote:
Question the State. Question the Milita. Question the Empires. Question CONCORD. Question the SCC. Question the wars.

Question the motives of the Capsuleers. And the fate of us all if we don't change.

There has to be a better way then what we see before us.


The part people always seem to forget with this "question everything" rhetoric is "...and come up with an answer."

I've questioned much in my life. In many cases I found the thing I was questioning to be true, agreeable or at least justifiable.

AKA Hambone

Author of The Deathworlders
Solarienne
Hrimdraugar
#14 - 2013-01-18 00:09:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Solarienne
Bataav wrote:
Very thought provoking. I like it.

If others are free to add their own...

A Secessionist decides not to join the army, but instead resists foreign invasion and domination by other means. His decision is primarily influenced by the failings of the Federation and yes, by those of the Assembly. He is known for his independent thought, and considers a range of third-party sources before taking what he believes to be the best course of action. Planets are pillaged and thousands die due to the cycle of conflict in someone else's war, despite his calls for peace.

How did I do? Smile


As much as I agree with your wish to declare your independence, that being a strong part of Caldari history, those who call for peace are bluffing or losing. Never trust someone who comes alone showing you his palms and a flag of truce, for surely his flag bearer and bodyguard are elsewhere and up to no good.

After all, of the methods of obtaining peace, fighting for it is often, but not always, the most absolute way to achieve it if you have the strength of arms. Discussion is merely the postponement of the dominance of one idea over another. Negotiate for time, fight for peace.

As for the original post and topic at large? People do terrible things by other people's standards to pursue their own. It's when you find yourself overstepping your own standards, be they the rule of law or lessons learned during your formative years, that you have a problem. So long as you serve a cause, and the people of that cause adore you for it, you are acting in a just manner. The opinions of outsiders are worth only as much as the ammunition to put an end to those opinions costs.

PY-RE Combat Pilot
Streya Jormagdnir
Alexylva Paradox
#15 - 2013-01-18 04:57:30 UTC
Seriphyn Inhonores wrote:


If you cannot see the double standards in arguing against the Amarr faith or any other religion while still supporting your own empire unquestionably, then...well...nothing. It's just a pity.


The sort of person who is inclined to question the Amarrian faith in a so formal and rational a manner is the same sort of person who wouldn't support a particular government in such an unwavering manner as you suggest. Caricaturized nationalistic cartoon villians tend not to employ set theory.

I am also a human, straggling between the present world... and our future. I am a regulator, a coordinator, one who is meant to guide the way.

Destination Unreachable: the worst Wspace blog ever
Atlas Zao-tsu
Doomheim
#16 - 2013-01-18 12:58:06 UTC
You must watch the wrong cartoons then! Seriously. Has nobody seen Dr. Mao Wuhei and His Numero-Logical Chart Adventures? It's a classic in the math-related animation set.
Halete
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#17 - 2013-01-18 13:26:06 UTC
Oh come on, Seriphyn, really?

Trying to be the mediator? You? And here I was, convinced you couldn't crawl any further up your own ass.

"To know the true path, but yet, to never follow it. That is possibly the gravest sin" - The Scriptures, Book of Missions 13:21
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#18 - 2013-01-18 21:17:29 UTC
Streya Jormagdnir wrote:
Seriphyn Inhonores wrote:


If you cannot see the double standards in arguing against the Amarr faith or any other religion while still supporting your own empire unquestionably, then...well...nothing. It's just a pity.


The sort of person who is inclined to question the Amarrian faith in a so formal and rational a manner is the same sort of person who wouldn't support a particular government in such an unwavering manner as you suggest. Caricaturized nationalistic cartoon villians tend not to employ set theory.


Not only, sadly.
Davlos
State War Academy
Caldari State
#19 - 2013-01-20 08:54:56 UTC
I demand full compensation of the 3 minutes of my life wasted in reading this nonsense.
Kithrus
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Collective
#20 - 2013-01-20 14:11:54 UTC
There's nothing wrong in what he said except that everyone feels the need to pick it to pieces.

Darkness is more then absence of light, it is ignorance and corruption. I will be the Bulwark from such things that you may live in the light. Pray so my arms do not grow weary and my footing remain sure.

If you are brave, join me in the dark.