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Dev blog: CSM meeting minutes are out

First post First post
Author
Keras Authion
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#81 - 2013-01-17 09:23:00 UTC
Finished the notes, a few comments. While the most of the content was fine I'd like to give some opinions and notes on a few things.

Getting more industry to null. I can agree to making it better but please keep in mind that the different areas are supposed to interact with each other. Giving null too much of resources (or penalizing the production in high) will take the base-level production out of high sec. As it stands the high sec produces low-level minerals, tech 1 items and faction modules to export while importing everything else. Null produces tech 2 materials, high-end minerals and high-level modules for export while importing the basic stuffs and tech 3. If the null industry is boosted too much it becomes nearly self-sufficient obsoleting much of the high sec. I think it's something that needs to be taking into consideration.

CREST. I think the option to steal stuff has to be regulated, at very least to the level of very fine control of what and for how long it is accessible. It's one thing to convince a player to give their stuffs to another player in game and another writing an out of game app that has an access to your inventory. If we go with the analogy of "giving the car keys to a stranger", how many you think will give the keys? Is the work done on the CREST worth the few people that are willing to trust other people to not steal their stuff for no specific reason? If I can't trust a major app like evemon to not one day say "screw it" taking trillions of isk from the users after years of awesome service why would I want to use this feature at all? Things like this have happened before with player services and why would this be different?

Loyalty rewards for being in a player corp. While it's a sound idea it needs more thought. If I have a character in a one-man corp and two in npc corps do I qualify? How about all in one-man corps instead of socializing with the other people in the npc corp? Does it even go with the sandbox setting to say "You can do whatever you want here but if you do it this way you get an extra token"?

Skillpoint respecs idea at the end of the customer loyalty section, page 111. No, Hans. No. Bad CSM! Bad! I don't care what your reasoning is but these have no place in this game for any reason. This thing has been through so many times you should know better by now.

This post was rated "C" for capsuleer.

Bad Messenger
Rehabilitation Clinic
#82 - 2013-01-17 09:23:32 UTC
Hidden Snake wrote:
Bad Messenger wrote:
Quote:
Fozzie replied that after the farming nerf, enrollment was
down 10-15% (mostly farmers leaving), but has been creeping up again, except for Caldari which has
some demoralization issues. Soundwave noted that overall, things are stable, and Fozzie added that last
week was the 3rd most active week in terms of PvP.


caldari do have demoralization issues because of DEVs who ****** up situation in FW but that is not a reason why caladri is not creeping up again, reason is that there is no point to be on caldari side because rewards suck and you can do lot of more isk on gallente side. You can not really recruit players for role play reasons when other side recruits for big isk.

Caldari sure could take systems and change better income to caldari side, but why to do so when you can instantly make big isk on gallente side without any effort.

Current FW is worst version of FW ever.



Do high five to Fozzie ... he is doing his job ... pretty good. Lets see how public this issue will go, was recently contacted by some outside MMO media about little **** in CCP. :)


maybe they should copy FW sov mechanics directly to 0.0 because it is so good and working
C DeLeon
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#83 - 2013-01-17 09:31:29 UTC  |  Edited by: C DeLeon
POS revamp is exactly what perfectly fits into that new development direction.
- It affects everybody in the game in every corner of the universe. No favoritism towards playstyles.
- It can fit into 1 theme: "industry"
- The answer to the "why?" question: To fix old broken or unnecessarily overcomplicated parts of the industry. To give more options for new tactics. To have a base ground for planned future changes (like lowsec buff, null/wh rework, corp management etc). To give some kind of "housing" system where the players can be more attached to their homesystems.

I can understand that it can be too much work to implement it at once but pushing away the idea with design philosophies feels like just cheap excuses.
Hidden Snake
Inglorious-Basterds
#84 - 2013-01-17 09:33:48 UTC
Bad Messenger wrote:
Hidden Snake wrote:
Bad Messenger wrote:
Quote:
Fozzie replied that after the farming nerf, enrollment was
down 10-15% (mostly farmers leaving), but has been creeping up again, except for Caldari which has
some demoralization issues. Soundwave noted that overall, things are stable, and Fozzie added that last
week was the 3rd most active week in terms of PvP.


caldari do have demoralization issues because of DEVs who ****** up situation in FW but that is not a reason why caladri is not creeping up again, reason is that there is no point to be on caldari side because rewards suck and you can do lot of more isk on gallente side. You can not really recruit players for role play reasons when other side recruits for big isk.

Caldari sure could take systems and change better income to caldari side, but why to do so when you can instantly make big isk on gallente side without any effort.

Current FW is worst version of FW ever.



Do high five to Fozzie ... he is doing his job ... pretty good. Lets see how public this issue will go, was recently contacted by some outside MMO media about little **** in CCP. :)


maybe they should copy FW sov mechanics directly to 0.0 because it is so good and working


lol that would be perfect .... lost billions to unarmed incursuses hordes .... actually I can imagine lot of funny scenarios.
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#85 - 2013-01-17 09:55:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Roime
Good read, the new expansion strategy feels solid and the hints about expansive expansions coming in the future are juicy indeed. I'm very worried about the modular POSes not coming. Building custom POSes, small sandcastles in the stars would be wonderful for both increasing conflicts and to please builder-types.

My pics for the most interesting topics:

Drone UI wrote:

Greene Lee closed the meeting by asking about the Drone UI and if there was any progress on the
“Drones as modules” concept art shown at FanFest. Arrow mentioned that it is fairly complex as there are
different drones with different purposes, but Two step asked for just a way to be able to attack/recall them
with a button.
...
Elise asked about the current drone interface, and it was agreed that the interface at present is not good,
with Kelduum referring to it as “hilarious”, although Team Pony Express are not sure where this is in the
pipeline.


We really, really need a new drone UI by summer expansion. It shouldn't be postponed anymore, it's been troubling players for years, and now the current empire NPC AI changes cause drone micro-management challenges also to the players with much less skills and ability to adapt.

Different drones and purposes? Yes, but they are used in the same way- select target, command drones to engage target. Even if we wouldn't get "drones as modules", we need at least these changes to groups and shortcut bindings:

X number of default drone groups. Groups can be named by user, but DG 1 named "Ogresasdasf" is still drone group in slot 1 and manu item includes the group #.

Keyboard Shortcuts (no defaults needed):

Launch Drone group 1
...
Launch Drone group 5 (or up to any max number you see appropriate, five is just the minimum)

And then for each individual drone, drones are assigned a number on launch:

Drone 1-25: Engage target, Return to Drone Bay, Return and Orbit.

This shortcuts are accompanied by number display and small buttons on each drone row in the drone window, before damage bars.

Also please fix the group folding/expanding behaviour of groups- currently launched group opens collapsed, and returning group expands, it should be opposite. Drones in bay should also have the damage bars visible.

These fixes would go a long way.

CCP Fitting Tool wrote:
Alice asked what the CSM thought about those topics. Trebor thought that the ideas were fine, but
questioned why CCP would duplicate effort that the community is already doing. He suggested that CCP
concentrate on building the tools to better enable the community to build some of the applications. Alice
said that CCP wanted to focus on the mainstream tools that the players use. She did acknowledge that it
was CCP playing catch up, but she said it was important for CCP to provide the major tools that people
need.


Trebor, many players are simply not aware of third party tools, or interested in installing them in order to play a game, and even less if terrible websites and crude interfaces. CCP providing a decent fitting tool would be a massive improvement for these people, and as a result we would have to suffer from less terrible fits and stupid forum questions.

Furthermore, I'd very much prefer a web-based, cross-platform fitting tool that is always up to date and comes with a direct link to ingame fittings.

Pyfa and EFT are really nice applications, but their mere existence should not be an obstacle for CCP to develop the game and the services they provide- and ship fitting is a core mechanic of the game, not something to be left forever in the hands of 3rd party developers.

EVE UI wrote:
Also shown were a series of monochromatic revamped UI icons (some already seen in the new factional
warfare and war declaration UIs), which are intentionally very different from in-game items, which are
much more detailed and colored.
...
Sisyphus explained that for summer they will be prototyping a new radial menu system to replace the
existing in-space version using mouse gestures, and eventually the right-click menus.
This will start with the in-space version of the menus, in an attempt to move the interaction in EVE to a
‘left-click’ like most other games/programs/web-pages.


New icons, finally, especially the Neocom icons are very dated.

Again, finally! Nested dropdown menus kill every UI. Finding the correct opening from an unordered list, then navigating a cursor through a geometric maze of tiny little corridors just to execute one single command or access another menu is simply the worst possible solution in every use case.

Player Experience wrote:
Sharq then said they want to add animations for docking and undocking, for example the ship turning toward the corridor when undocking before their screen fades to black, setting the mood better. Elise
agreed that as long as it doesn't take any longer than the existing undock process, that would be nice.
Sharq also mentioned that the Art team were excited about adding runway lights and other things when
docking.


ZOMG <3 yes yes please! Simple settings options for station gamers: "Show/hide docking sequences" might be appropriate.

Economy wrote:
stargate jumps are up 20%.


EVE is doing extremely well <3

.

Alx Warlord
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#86 - 2013-01-17 11:58:57 UTC
Julia Fistage wrote:
POSes affect almost everyone in game either directly or indirectly (t2 materials anyone?). The UIs are buggy, industry at POSes is a ballache, they are practically compulsory in w-space. Please don't overlook them!


And also they "blablabla" complaining about Industry in null/low/WH space!!!! Big What the F here!
Ravcharas
Infinite Point
Pandemic Horde
#87 - 2013-01-17 12:12:54 UTC
Jack Haydn wrote:
Quote:
Seagull: Enablers are the people who make the logistics for these large-scale things actually work. They are people who run mad spreadsheets to organize production lines for war efforts, they are people who manage roles and membership of big corporations and alliances, they build tools to do different tasks. And we kind of have a history of treating these people like…****. We put these people through a lot of painful, unnecessary work.


Quote:
Unifex stated that what CCP did was spend effort and prototype what would make a good POS system. It would, however, only affect the group of people who manage POSes. Focusing that amount of time and effort on some small singular aspect of the game and delivering only that “is what will kill the business”.


Do you guys even grasp what you are talking about?



On a more constructive note: I have dealt with POS in the past. I don't do much POS work anymore now. Did it ever cross your mind that the small group of people doing POS stuff these days might grow vastly, if POS are actually not a reason to hurt yourself anymore?

(This is obviously directed at CCP, not the CSM)

I'm not sure I would agree that POSes represent a "small and singular aspect of the game." Either way CCP recently redid FW; which only a minority of the players engaged in. Bounty system, anyone? Where is this line drawn?

If POSes was painless to set up and use, represented better opportunities than did stations, and were scaled to also function as an individual pilot asset - I would expect more people to use them more often.
Alx Warlord
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#88 - 2013-01-17 12:30:35 UTC
Talin wrote:
Greetings to CCP and CSM,

I want to congratulate you one what seems to be a very successful gathering. You both seem to have hashed something to be relished. The new direction sounds promising and the new Custodian's of the EVE Universe seem to have a good grasp on what they want and perhaps what we want.

However in the course document I became extremely discourage. Perhaps I didn't read enough or didn't comprehend everything that was said, but from the nature of the minutes it seems that the idea of Modular POS's has been side lined if not completely scraped by the development team.

The idea's given to us several months ago were a beautiful reminder to me of the awe and potential of EVE. The honest truth is I've always wanted to have a little section of EVE that was distinctly my own. Something the current system of POS's does not provide to someone who by accountability terms for EVE would be considered a "Lurker". While I know it's possible open a Starbase in the current system. The thing purposed to the CSM's and the inadvertently the rest of the player base was exactly what I've always wanted. I've always wanted a home floating around the Planet of my choosing, so I could claim a little section of High sec for myself. I even have a little planetary Orbit I've picked out already.

Under the plans described to CSM back before the beginning of the new year I was excited and began actively playing again. Now the ball has been yanked out again, and a potentially great feature was taken away with no argument or consideration for what could become a very viable aspect of EVE if it was nurtured. Rather it was casually swept under the rug because it would be to constraining to impalement. Because it would effect to few players. Well if you had chosen to look into expanding the versatility and desire would undoubtedly increase. I know I would be making a new home in space.

The new Dev blogs even more outrageously continued to list POS's as part of the changes potential changes. While I know it was stated that it might not reflect the final list. They then cold handedly rip any continued idea of the aforementioned Modular POS's out because they don't THINK it will effect enough of us.

Well, it would have affected me if you had chosen to do it. I would have been ready to dumb hundreds of millions of ISK or probably hundreds of dollars in Real cash to make my little space home in EVE a reality.

For the futures sake CCP, and CSM's I hope you reconsider this course of action.

Thank you for listening, It's time I go back to lurking.

-Tal



We all fell the same... The Starbase in the scy-fi space is so important as the spaceships itself. (Star trek - Deep space 9) ...

What happens is that when CCP tried Incarna... they got beten up by the comunity becouse EVE is not about just walking in stations... It is about the Ships, the lore and all.... And now they learned the lesson... but not completely ... THEY GOT TO BE BETEN UP AGAIN TO UNDERSTANT THE "And ALL" part of it...


We can see that John Lander changed the direction of How CCP does the Development, we can see it in
this image that he posted in the dev blog that he plans to embrace the full meaning of EVE... But it looks like they are walking in the oposite direction that he is pointing.

It is clear that all problems of EVE today are Related to the POS issue...

Empty Nullsec? >> Lack of industry >> POS
Empty WH? >> Pain on logistics >> POS
NO objectives and things to build and defend? >> Sand castle POS...
I-Hub Issues? >> POS
Item management? >> POS
MArket? >> dock and do it on POS
Lack of hope and objectives? >> It would be solved by wanting a home... >> POS...

I really hope that CCP notices this before we have annother issue like incarna. I lost manny friends that time.. and few of them came back... I don't want to lose the other part of them... so there would be no real reason to play EVE...

Come ON CCP! you don't NEED to do it Tomorrow. You just need to Try and keep doing!!!! 2 yeas to finish? 4 years to finish? 10 years to finish!? it doesn't matter, we stay with you as long as you have the vision!!!! Slowly release It...
First change the tower design... then the weapons design... then add a couple of modules... then ADD a nice UI to manage things placement ... It will end up being possible... just go step by step...
Alexander Renoir
Covenant Trading Agency
#89 - 2013-01-17 12:37:36 UTC
CCP@ CSM meeting minutes wrote:

The general feeling from CCP is that if bounties are not causing people to leave the game then they aren’t likely to put resources on to a problem that doesn’t exist.


Listen CCP. Two Accounts canceled! Two from me. I know many others that also canceled during your daft new bounty system!

CCP@ CSM meeting minutes wrote:

The goal would be to ensure they understand that having a bounty doesn’t make them attackable in highsec, which Solomon confirmed was a point of confusion on the forums even for experienced players.


The problem is not the confusing thing that some one assume that you are attackable in highsec. This is daft ****. Every one knows that you are not attackable in highsec because of the bounty. AND THIS IS NOT THE PROBLEM!!! The problem is the bounty what you get if you type something into an help channel, or for declining a convo etc.

CCP@ CSM meeting minutes wrote:

Ripley chimed in that she had asked for a report on this from Customer Support and so far the number of people that have petitioned that the bounty system is harassment has been 40.


Daft lie. I allone know nearly 40 people who hates this system. In the german help channel only!
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#90 - 2013-01-17 12:44:49 UTC
Alexander Renoir wrote:
The problem is not the confusing thing that some one assume that you are attackable in highsec. This is daft ****. Every one knows that you are not attackable in highsec because of the bounty. AND THIS IS NOT THE PROBLEM!!! The problem is the bounty what you get if you type something into an help channel, or for declining a convo etc.

This doesn't even happen anymore. The only reason it was happening was because the system was new and people wanted to play around with it. So get over yourself.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)

ChromeStriker
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#91 - 2013-01-17 13:23:03 UTC  |  Edited by: ChromeStriker
Half way through the minuets:

POS's!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
Your wrong if you think changing POS's will only effect a small group. POS owners are a small group because of the POS's themselves, change the POS and more people will use them!
ATM a POS is restrictive, irritating, and a hassle. Give people a modular POS that they can fit to their own needs and more people will use them.

I loved the idea of making my own secret hideaway, maybe with a few guns, a small shield and a maintenance style hanger. Cheep and simple that i could work on and improve.

If an alliance wants a huge POS that mines a moon, has a JB, can hold a few titans, and has some mega deathray, so be it. Thats what it feels like now. But make something for the little guy, the small corp or the individual, and you will have a huge asset to the game.

No Worries

Alexander Renoir
Covenant Trading Agency
#92 - 2013-01-17 13:28:50 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Alexander Renoir wrote:
The problem is not the confusing thing that some one assume that you are attackable in highsec. This is daft ****. Every one knows that you are not attackable in highsec because of the bounty. AND THIS IS NOT THE PROBLEM!!! The problem is the bounty what you get if you type something into an help channel, or for declining a convo etc.

This doesn't even happen anymore. The only reason it was happening was because the system was new and people wanted to play around with it. So get over yourself.


WHAT?!?!???
This happens every day SINCE release without a break!
Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations
#93 - 2013-01-17 13:34:15 UTC
Alexander Renoir wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Alexander Renoir wrote:
The problem is not the confusing thing that some one assume that you are attackable in highsec. This is daft ****. Every one knows that you are not attackable in highsec because of the bounty. AND THIS IS NOT THE PROBLEM!!! The problem is the bounty what you get if you type something into an help channel, or for declining a convo etc.

This doesn't even happen anymore. The only reason it was happening was because the system was new and people wanted to play around with it. So get over yourself.


WHAT?!?!???
This happens every day SINCE release without a break!



Calm down. Bounties aren't that big a deal. My tiny little low-sec RP pirate alliance is the third biggest bountied alliance in the game. We don't have people beating down our doors looking to collect.
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#94 - 2013-01-17 13:35:47 UTC
Alexander Renoir wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Alexander Renoir wrote:
The problem is not the confusing thing that some one assume that you are attackable in highsec. This is daft ****. Every one knows that you are not attackable in highsec because of the bounty. AND THIS IS NOT THE PROBLEM!!! The problem is the bounty what you get if you type something into an help channel, or for declining a convo etc.

This doesn't even happen anymore. The only reason it was happening was because the system was new and people wanted to play around with it. So get over yourself.


WHAT?!?!???
This happens every day SINCE release without a break!


What is the problem exactly?

.

Alexander Renoir
Covenant Trading Agency
#95 - 2013-01-17 13:46:21 UTC
Roime wrote:
Alexander Renoir wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Alexander Renoir wrote:
The problem is not the confusing thing that some one assume that you are attackable in highsec. This is daft ****. Every one knows that you are not attackable in highsec because of the bounty. AND THIS IS NOT THE PROBLEM!!! The problem is the bounty what you get if you type something into an help channel, or for declining a convo etc.

This doesn't even happen anymore. The only reason it was happening was because the system was new and people wanted to play around with it. So get over yourself.


WHAT?!?!???
This happens every day SINCE release without a break!


What is the problem exactly?



I do not wish to have a bounty because for a question in a help channel, for declining a convo, or for declining to go into a player corp etc.
The current bounty system is just a griefing tool. NOTHING MORE!
I have NEVER done something illegal! I just play AND PAY (!!!!) the game for nearly 5 years! ANd now I got an a$$kick from CCP's like Soundwave and Punkturis who thinks that it would be cool to grief old players with a bounty, but exlude the WHOLE CCP-staff from bounties. Try to spend a bounty on Soundwave or other GM's; DEV's or Volunteers!
Loyality Awards for old players? LOL! I have a bounty on my head for nothing. Thats fair CCP? Why should I pay EVERY MONTH in real money to play a game where I got hate from the developers?
I do not calm down. After 5 years continued subscription with a lot of money You can not expect that I do this! I just close all my accounts!
Akrasjel Lanate
Immemorial Coalescence Administration
Immemorial Coalescence
#96 - 2013-01-17 13:59:38 UTC
Also if you want people to use more POSes, you could also could standing requriments to set up one in high sec Roll

But anyway good that the minutes were shorter compared to the last year ones. Good to hear something about the loyalty program.

And off course Live Events Blink


PS. Oh and no ponies if you do so ill unsub my all 450k accounts RollRollRoll

CEO of Lanate Industries

Citizen of Solitude

Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#97 - 2013-01-17 14:10:38 UTC
Alexander Renoir wrote:

I do not wish to have a bounty because for a question in a help channel, for declining a convo, or for declining to go into a player corp etc.


But could you please explain what is the problem with having a bounty? As you understand, you can also place a bounty on anyone if you see it appropriate.

Quote:
The current bounty system is just a griefing tool. NOTHING MORE!
I have NEVER done something illegal! I just play AND PAY (!!!!) the game for nearly 5 years! ANd now I got an a$$kick from CCP's like Soundwave and Punkturis who thinks that it would be cool to grief old players with a bounty, but exlude the WHOLE CCP-staff from bounties. Try to spend a bounty on Soundwave or other GM's; DEV's or Volunteers!
Loyality Awards for old players? LOL! I have a bounty on my head for nothing. Thats fair CCP? Why should I pay EVERY MONTH in real money to play a game where I got hate from the developers?
I do not calm down. After 5 years continued subscription with a lot of money You can not expect that I do this! I just close all my accounts!


Why does the bounty grief you? AFAIK it does not hinder your gameplay in any way. Please explain why this is a problem.

.

Reiisha
#98 - 2013-01-17 14:30:26 UTC
I'll agree with the majority of posters here: A POS revamp into the suggested modular system from a fe wmonths back would interest a lot of new people in the entire thing to begin with (including me). POSses do matter for this reason and sidelining the modular POS design would be a very bad move - As someone else also pointed out, POS are at the root of almost everything in EVE.

If you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all...

Alexander Renoir
Covenant Trading Agency
#99 - 2013-01-17 14:33:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Alexander Renoir
Roime wrote:
Alexander Renoir wrote:

I do not wish to have a bounty because for a question in a help channel, for declining a convo, or for declining to go into a player corp etc.


But could you please explain what is the problem with having a bounty? As you understand, you can also place a bounty on anyone if you see it appropriate.

Quote:
The current bounty system is just a griefing tool. NOTHING MORE!
I have NEVER done something illegal! I just play AND PAY (!!!!) the game for nearly 5 years! ANd now I got an a$$kick from CCP's like Soundwave and Punkturis who thinks that it would be cool to grief old players with a bounty, but exlude the WHOLE CCP-staff from bounties. Try to spend a bounty on Soundwave or other GM's; DEV's or Volunteers!
Loyality Awards for old players? LOL! I have a bounty on my head for nothing. Thats fair CCP? Why should I pay EVERY MONTH in real money to play a game where I got hate from the developers?
I do not calm down. After 5 years continued subscription with a lot of money You can not expect that I do this! I just close all my accounts!


Why does the bounty grief you? AFAIK it does not hinder your gameplay in any way. Please explain why this is a problem.

I explained it with: "It is a griefing tool." I got bounties from pilots I never meet nor I had done a harm to them.

And your argument "It does not effect my gamestyle" is not correct. It effects my game style. I am proud of my reputation and do not wish to have a bounty sign for NOTHING!

Example: For me the WANTED sign is the same as some one would say "fugg you" "dumb a$$hole" or would otherwise harass me!
I am not a criminal; I never want to be handled like a criminal without a reason!
I demand the border for not beeing able to spend bounties on chars with positive security rating. EXACT as it was before Retribution!

Ask yourself why CCP has exluded themself of getting bounties! They know that CCP Soundwave will be the most wanted. They saw it on the testserver! If he deserves the bounty is not the question now. But he would be the most wanted because he was it!
Othran
Route One
#100 - 2013-01-17 14:42:00 UTC
UAXDeath was right about the way sov timing works now - it does completely preclude small corps/alliances being able to take small areas of sov because of timezone membership issues.

While the changes in sov timers made sense in terms of sanity (thinking alarm clock ops here) it has made sov null pretty much like groundhog day now.

I hadn't thought of it in those terms before I read the minutes* so thanks for that UAXDeath

*some of them, I skipped over the navel-watching dribbling bits about electing the CSM