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So who wants T3's nerfed then?

Author
WInter Borne
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#21 - 2013-01-16 18:47:42 UTC
Zoltan Lazar wrote:
They have not stated any plans to nerf T3s in any way. They have announced plans to change how T3s work for boosting. A battleship puts out more DPS at a longer range for less cost than a T3 ship, they are in no way OP except that people need something to whine about.

Its best to know what you're talking about when offering an opinion....people dont use battleships in wormhole pvp because of mass limitations on the wormholes. T3's offer the best ratio of dps/mass.
Klarion Sythis
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#22 - 2013-01-16 20:18:34 UTC
Regarding CCP and their statements on T3 nerfs:

CCP Ytterbium:
"Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line. It doesn't necessarily means nerfing them to oblivion and beyond, but making sure that each subsystem configuration has a use and they don't overlap on other ships by making them different in role and purpose."

Source
Klarion Sythis
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#23 - 2013-01-16 21:08:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Klarion Sythis
Better More information from the Minutes released today:

"Two step transitioned the discussion to Tech 3s and noted that many T3 pilots had concerns over Ytterbium’s view of T3 from the previous summit. Ytterbium went on to describe his vision for the relationship between T1, T2, and T3. T1, Ytterbium explained, would be general, but usable. T2 would be more specialized in certain roles than T1 while not being universally better. T3 would then be more general than T2, but able to do several unique things that T2 cannot. Ytterbium conceded that this was no simple task, and that T3 was a long ways away. Fozzie gave an example of a dynamic that they thought was good and brought up ships like the Proteus and Loki using their ewar subsystem. The Proteus, as Fozzie explained, was able to have a point-range bonus that was not as powerful as the T2 specialized ship (Lachesis, Arazu), however the Proteus was able to combine that role with a very sturdy armor tank; something that the more specialized T2 ships cannot do.

Two step added that the ability to change is good, but that it was only good if the ship was able to do this while in combat. Fozzie explained their vision that they want T3 to be able to mix and match capabilities that don’t otherwise exist. Using the Proteus he gave another example – combining the cloaking, high damage, and a comparatively bigger tank.

Two step explained that people in wormholes currently use T3s for heavy, reasonably high DPS platforms and that he thought this dynamic was good. Ytterbium disagreed completely and argued that T3s have a very high EHP, very good damage, and a good maneuverability. This combination, he continued, was simply too good. Greyscale pointed out Tengus, to which Two step replied that it was unwise to balance T3s based on Tengus. Two step argued that while Tengus are great for PvE, they weren’t very common for wormhole PvP and as such it would be ill-advised to “throw out the Legion with the Tengu bathwater”.

To further explain the vision between T1, T2, and T3, Ytterbium pulled up his Command Ship devblog. Ytterbium pointed out that command ships would be very specialized and would get the best bonuses, however they would be limited in their ability to fight and do other things. Ytterbium described that his vision for T3s would let T3s fit more diverse gang links, while being able to do other things – like fight, or use ewar – simultaneously.

Fozzie continued where Ytterbium left off and suggested that perhaps T3s would be able to have a fitting bonus to ganglinks to facilitate fitting more diverse links without having to gimp the ship. Elise asked if there was any thought to pairing the Command Ship, and later T3, changes with changes to how bonuses are applied to fleet. Elise argued that the current Fleet-Wing-Squad system bonus system was bad and it really detracted from the role of links. Ytterbium and Fozzie both agreed that the current system was severely flawed."

Source: Page 48 & 49
Jack Miton
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#24 - 2013-01-16 22:22:32 UTC
Klarion Sythis wrote:
Better information from the Minutes released today:


you use the term 'better' a bit loosely here i think...

There is no Bob.

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Klarion Sythis
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#25 - 2013-01-16 22:26:37 UTC
Jack Miton wrote:
Klarion Sythis wrote:
Better information from the Minutes released today:


you use the term 'better' a bit loosely here i think...

Fixed.
Qvar Dar'Zanar
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#26 - 2013-01-16 23:54:31 UTC
Random Woman wrote:

As for T3, the problem is they are not generalized, they are just generally good.

They mostly offer the same bonuses as the specialized t2 ships, just with everything else better than the t2 variant. Add to that their small mass, and you have the perfect WH ship.



Yeah and Absolution is plainly better than Harbinger, that's why one is called T2 and another T1, the former costing 4 times the later.
Lloyd Roses
Artificial Memories
#27 - 2013-01-17 13:10:55 UTC
Qvar Dar'Zanar wrote:
Random Woman wrote:

As for T3, the problem is they are not generalized, they are just generally good.

They mostly offer the same bonuses as the specialized t2 ships, just with everything else better than the t2 variant. Add to that their small mass, and you have the perfect WH ship.



Yeah and Absolution is plainly better than Harbinger, that's why one is called T2 and another T1, the former costing 4 times the later.


Don't forget that with the upcoming command ship changes the absolution will most likely be useless. Right now it is a better harbinger, soon it is a tanky harbinger with 200 dps and good links. See damnation, which is 99.8% useless for anything but boosting or bait.

yay.
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#28 - 2013-01-17 13:20:32 UTC
Does it really matter? We will fly the best ships available.

T3's are fine, it's things like recon ships and HAC's that need a buff and i'm not talking about more dps or tank.
Qvar Dar'Zanar
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#29 - 2013-01-17 13:21:22 UTC
Yup I saw that yesterday in the minute notes... I find it a bit sad and interesting at the same time. Anyway, it was just an example, it would work with any other hull size. If you want a more straigthforward example:

Omen (50M) T1 < Zealot (price x4) T2 = Working as intended
Zealot (200M) T2 < Legion (price x4, plus SP loss) T3 = OMG outrageous! Nerf!
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#30 - 2013-01-17 13:33:12 UTC
Once the link issue is solved, only thing left is balancing HACs vs T3s.

Recons reconing > T3s reconing
Logis loging > T3s loging
Post-release CSs boosting > T3s boosting

...but

T3s haccing >>>>> HACs haccing

I'm afraid that buffing the T2 HACs to be better than T3s is simply not an option due to the stats, so in order to balance them T3 tank, gank and mobility have to be brought down, if even just slightly.

Then again it would be cool to give the logi subsystems a slight range buff. Ideally I'd be very happy to fly an expensive cloaky scanning tackling Proteus with one bonused RR with a slightly less OP tank for small gang, and a faster, tankier and gankier Deimos with Oneiroses.

Currently the Proteus is just retardedly better than a Deimos in the role intended for Deimos. Same goes for Zealots v Legion, Vaga vs Loki... yeah Caldari has HACs too, probably not any assembled on Tranquility tho.

Ishtar vs Proteus is a curious exception, they are very well balanced against each others, Ishtar does it's thing better.

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Qvar Dar'Zanar
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#31 - 2013-01-17 13:51:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Qvar Dar'Zanar
So tell me, why on Earth should I spend hundreds of millions buying a T3 ship when for the same price I can buy some specialized ships that will do better than the T3 in each of the roles, and without even the SP loss risk?
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#32 - 2013-01-17 14:00:39 UTC
Because T3 can combine those roles in one ship, it's like a Leatherman- never as good as a carving knife or a screwdriver, but it's in your pocket when you need it and does the job.





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Qvar Dar'Zanar
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#33 - 2013-01-17 14:14:10 UTC
So I fit my Legion for combat. Which roles exactly does it 'combine'?
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#34 - 2013-01-17 14:18:04 UTC
Klarion Sythis wrote:

Two step explained that people in wormholes currently use T3s for heavy, reasonably high DPS platforms and that he thought this dynamic was good. Ytterbium disagreed completely and argued that T3s have a very high EHP, very good damage, and a good maneuverability. This combination, he continued, was simply too good.


I'm with Ytterbium here. T3s are too good and too common in WHs. The impression given to new players is that you should be flying a T3 - but there are significant cost and SP-related deterrents to this. Note that removing the SP loss or making T3s cheaper does not solve the issue, as it simply makes T3s even more attractive. T3s are simply better than HACs at being HACs.
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#35 - 2013-01-17 14:18:07 UTC
Recon neuts and command ship tank

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Qvar Dar'Zanar
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#36 - 2013-01-17 14:43:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Qvar Dar'Zanar
First, I didn't said it had a probe launcher or emergent locus fitted, nor neuts, but yeah ok I guess that's the only thing the 'very versatile' Legion is good for. And second, that's not 'combining roles'. At best, it's 'making a new recon ship, but sturdier'. Recon ships which, by the way, are a combination of covops and combat roles.

Gypsio III wrote:


I'm with Ytterbium here. T3s are too good and too common in WHs. The impression given to new players is that you should be flying a T3 - but there are significant cost and SP-related deterrents to this. Note that removing the SP loss or making T3s cheaper does not solve the issue, as it simply makes T3s even more attractive. T3s are simply better than HACs at being HACs.


They could try making capitals with less mass, no jump drive and no clone vat. Not only is it the best ship we can regularly get through wormholes, but also we can harvest and produce it ourselves, making it a logical choice for wh dwellers.
Narzis
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#37 - 2013-01-17 15:28:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Narzis
If T3's will get ehp and/or special ability (scram, web range etc.) nerf, these ships just will become useless, because nobody wants to loose 4-5 days of skills and 5-600m+ (generally more) ISK very often.

The best way is the T2 boost as many people said before me. If T2's will get boost to make them significantly better choice then its t1 variant to serve its own purpose the problem will disappear.
T1 still be useful because everybody can fly them who doesn't have the skills, ISK or just not in the mood to fly and loose expensive ships

Summarized:
T1's are currently good
T2's needs boost to make them better to ONE purpose than T3's
T3's are currently good

How I look like when I win a fight? https://dl.dropbox.com/u/32571986/out-2.gif

Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#38 - 2013-01-17 16:19:29 UTC
Narzis,

my HAC Proteus:

1100 dps
142K EHP

Do we need a cheap T2 cruiser with no SP loss that has higher stats? Really?




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Derath Ellecon
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#39 - 2013-01-17 16:45:22 UTC
Roime wrote:
Narzis,

my HAC Proteus:

1100 dps
142K EHP

Do we need a cheap T2 cruiser with no SP loss that has higher stats? Really?




No, but we also don't need a Proteus HAC that is a Deimos glass cannon with SP loss.
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#40 - 2013-01-17 17:30:37 UTC
Of course not, Deimos is broken, but don't you agree that there is quite a bit of room for adjustment without making Proteus into a glass cannon?

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