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Remove Attribute Implants and watch 0.0 catch on fire

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Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#81 - 2013-01-17 13:48:37 UTC
Doctor Ungabungas wrote:
Nightshade Mary wrote:
There is nothing wrong with implants.

It is all about risk vs reward. You want the reward of more SP/hr? You run the risk of losing the expensive implants.

Eve is not a nice place, it was never meant to be.


Sure you can argue risk vs reward all you like, but when people won't take the risk then the whole ''risk vs reward' argument is meaningless.

You might offer a 'play russian roulette game' where you can win 50 million dollars, but if everyone is too scared to play it then the game becomes pointless.


But loads of people routinely take the risk. It's a flat out lie to claim otherwise. A review of the killboards of any 0.0 group will show that the great majority of pods have implants.

This argument is literally "Hoo hoo I don't like the idea of losing so give prizes to everyone so I don't have to feel bad about not even entering the contest"

If you're too scared to put 30M ISK on the line in a fight, then all you'll ever fly is T1 frigates and cruisers anyway. In whaich case why do you even care about your SP/hr? 4 or 5M SP is all you'll ever need.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#82 - 2013-01-17 13:50:16 UTC
Doctor Ungabungas wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Why shouldn't I be allowed to train faster than you if I put some assets on the line to do so?


I'd look at it from the point of view of 'what's better for the game' - 50 people PvPing and playing EXTREME HARDCORE RISK HEROES or 500 people PvPing and playing Only Slightly Hardcore Risk Heroes or 5000 people PvPing and playing very little risk heroes.

I don't know the answer, but I'm pretty sure it's not the 50 guys.

I do like the idea of dropping learning implants entirely and adding more hard wirings and 'corporate implant' sets (to go along side the pirate faction ones) .


Are we citing rectally sourced figures in this argument?

OK, tens of thousands of players operate in 0.0, and 95% of them use implants.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Doctor Ungabungas
Doomheim
#83 - 2013-01-17 13:51:24 UTC
Malcanis wrote:


But loads of people routinely take the risk. It's a flat out lie to claim otherwise. A review of the killboards of any 0.0 group will show that the great majority of pods have implants.

This argument is literally "Hoo hoo I don't like the idea of losing so give prizes to everyone so I don't have to feel bad about not even entering the contest"

If you're too scared to put 30M ISK on the line in a fight, then all you'll ever fly is T1 frigates and cruisers anyway. In whaich case why do you even care about your SP/hr? 4 or 5M SP is all you'll ever need.


How many is loads? And wouldn't it be better with twice as many 'loads'?

And what's wrong with people flying T1 frigates and cruisers? I've been flying around in a caracal for the last few weeks just because I've decided to finally learn what this 'pvp' thing is all about.

Are you saying that you wouldn't kill someone in a T1 frigate because they're not worth your time for some reason?
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#84 - 2013-01-17 13:51:53 UTC
Actually, if you want to PvP without risking any loss, there's an option that's been available since a few months after EVE launched.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Nightshade Mary
Darkwater Innovations
#85 - 2013-01-17 13:51:58 UTC
Doctor Ungabungas wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Why shouldn't I be allowed to train faster than you if I put some assets on the line to do so?


I'd look at it from the point of view of 'what's better for the game' - 50 people PvPing and playing EXTREME HARDCORE RISK HEROES or 500 people PvPing and playing Only Slightly Hardcore Risk Heroes or 5000 people PvPing and playing very little risk heroes.

I don't know the answer, but I'm pretty sure it's not the 50 guys.


That all depends on how you define "better".

Some people love to PvP and gladly take the risk that they might lose a clone in the process. Some people just can't wait to crunch rock and are very attached to their current body.

There will always be people that want reward with no risk. Giving them that is a sure fire way of taking away the "magic" that is Eve. It is the only game that I know where losing something actually means losing something.
Pitt POssum
Perkone
Caldari State
#86 - 2013-01-17 13:54:12 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
I PVP with +5s. Scrubs.


That's about it.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#87 - 2013-01-17 13:55:35 UTC
Doctor Ungabungas wrote:
Malcanis wrote:


But loads of people routinely take the risk. It's a flat out lie to claim otherwise. A review of the killboards of any 0.0 group will show that the great majority of pods have implants.

This argument is literally "Hoo hoo I don't like the idea of losing so give prizes to everyone so I don't have to feel bad about not even entering the contest"

If you're too scared to put 30M ISK on the line in a fight, then all you'll ever fly is T1 frigates and cruisers anyway. In whaich case why do you even care about your SP/hr? 4 or 5M SP is all you'll ever need.


How many is loads? And wouldn't it be better with twice as many 'loads'?


Why limit your made up numbers to twice? Wouldn't four times as many loads be twice as good as twice as many? Why not five times? Or fifty? Heck, there are 7 billion people in the world, maybe we'd get 7 billion players in 0.0 if we removed implants GO FOR THE BRASS RING!

Doctor Ungabungas wrote:

And what's wrong with people flying T1 frigates and cruisers? I've been flying around in a caracal for the last few weeks just because I've decided to finally learn what this 'pvp' thing is all about.

Are you saying that you wouldn't kill someone in a T1 frigate because they're not worth your time for some reason?


No, I'm saying that if you're going to limit yourself to risking so little ISK that the mere chance of losing a couple of +4s keeps you cowering in fear behind the undock button, then 5M SP will easily cover all the ships you'd ever dare risk undocking in.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Doctor Ungabungas
Doomheim
#88 - 2013-01-17 13:59:20 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Doctor Ungabungas wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Why shouldn't I be allowed to train faster than you if I put some assets on the line to do so?


I'd look at it from the point of view of 'what's better for the game' - 50 people PvPing and playing EXTREME HARDCORE RISK HEROES or 500 people PvPing and playing Only Slightly Hardcore Risk Heroes or 5000 people PvPing and playing very little risk heroes.

I don't know the answer, but I'm pretty sure it's not the 50 guys.

I do like the idea of dropping learning implants entirely and adding more hard wirings and 'corporate implant' sets (to go along side the pirate faction ones) .


Are we citing rectally sourced figures in this argument?

OK, tens of thousands of players operate in 0.0, and 95% of them use implants.


Are you sure?

I just checked the last 20 0.0 capsule kills on eve-kill and the breakdown is:
3 x +2's
3 x +4's
1 x +5's

So, your 95% figure seems somewhat strained. Only 4 people took any significant risk at all. (A fully fit caracal is worth more than a set of +2's.)
Nightshade Mary
Darkwater Innovations
#89 - 2013-01-17 14:01:16 UTC
Doctor Ungabungas wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Doctor Ungabungas wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Why shouldn't I be allowed to train faster than you if I put some assets on the line to do so?


I'd look at it from the point of view of 'what's better for the game' - 50 people PvPing and playing EXTREME HARDCORE RISK HEROES or 500 people PvPing and playing Only Slightly Hardcore Risk Heroes or 5000 people PvPing and playing very little risk heroes.

I don't know the answer, but I'm pretty sure it's not the 50 guys.

I do like the idea of dropping learning implants entirely and adding more hard wirings and 'corporate implant' sets (to go along side the pirate faction ones) .


Are we citing rectally sourced figures in this argument?

OK, tens of thousands of players operate in 0.0, and 95% of them use implants.


Are you sure?

I just checked the last 20 0.0 capsule kills on eve-kill and the breakdown is:
3 x +2's
3 x +4's
1 x +5's

So, your 95% figure seems somewhat strained. Only 4 people took any significant risk at all. (A fully fit caracal is worth more than a set of +2's.)


You might need to tune your sarcasm detector, it seems a tad off.
Doctor Ungabungas
Doomheim
#90 - 2013-01-17 14:02:33 UTC
Nightshade Mary wrote:
Doctor Ungabungas wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Why shouldn't I be allowed to train faster than you if I put some assets on the line to do so?


I'd look at it from the point of view of 'what's better for the game' - 50 people PvPing and playing EXTREME HARDCORE RISK HEROES or 500 people PvPing and playing Only Slightly Hardcore Risk Heroes or 5000 people PvPing and playing very little risk heroes.

I don't know the answer, but I'm pretty sure it's not the 50 guys.


There will always be people that want reward with no risk. Giving them that is a sure fire way of taking away the "magic" that is Eve. It is the only game that I know where losing something actually means losing something.


Except PvP is rewarding to both parties.

When you're actually fighting someone in 0.0, are you genuinely going 'oh boy, I bet this guy has got some really juicy implants' or are you going 'man, I am enjoying some exciting ship on ship combat right now'.

Do you feel like you've wasted your time killing them when the capsule kill reveals no implants? Or did you enjoy the fight for the sake of the fight?
Doctor Ungabungas
Doomheim
#91 - 2013-01-17 14:05:31 UTC
Nightshade Mary wrote:
Doctor Ungabungas wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Doctor Ungabungas wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Why shouldn't I be allowed to train faster than you if I put some assets on the line to do so?


I'd look at it from the point of view of 'what's better for the game' - 50 people PvPing and playing EXTREME HARDCORE RISK HEROES or 500 people PvPing and playing Only Slightly Hardcore Risk Heroes or 5000 people PvPing and playing very little risk heroes.

I don't know the answer, but I'm pretty sure it's not the 50 guys.

I do like the idea of dropping learning implants entirely and adding more hard wirings and 'corporate implant' sets (to go along side the pirate faction ones) .


Are we citing rectally sourced figures in this argument?

OK, tens of thousands of players operate in 0.0, and 95% of them use implants.


Are you sure?

I just checked the last 20 0.0 capsule kills on eve-kill and the breakdown is:
3 x +2's
3 x +4's
1 x +5's

So, your 95% figure seems somewhat strained. Only 4 people took any significant risk at all. (A fully fit caracal is worth more than a set of +2's.)


You might need to tune your sarcasm detector, it seems a tad off.


So he was being sarcastic when he claimed that people were all packing their heads full of implants and going out there LIVING IT UP HARDCORE?

What would be the problem with scrapping learning implants and adding another 5 sets of hard wirings that people could use to actually mix up the dynamic of spaceships. An implant that adds another 5MB of drone bandwith or such.
Felicity Love
Doomheim
#92 - 2013-01-17 14:06:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Felicity Love
Put CONCORD on "sick leave" for 3 days, and achieve the same effect with far greater zhitz and gigglez. Twisted

"EVE is dying." -- The Four Forum Trolls of the Apocalypse.   ( Pick four, any four. They all smell.  )
Doctor Ungabungas
Doomheim
#93 - 2013-01-17 14:08:43 UTC
Felicity Love wrote:
Put CONCORD on "sick leave" for 3 days, and achieve the same effect with far greater zhitz and gigglez. Twisted


People just wouldn't undock, it would just be a war dec writ large.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#94 - 2013-01-17 14:12:39 UTC
Doctor Ungabungas wrote:

What would be the problem with scrapping learning implants and adding another 5 sets of hard wirings that people could use to actually mix up the dynamic of spaceships. An implant that adds another 5MB of drone bandwith or such.


Why do we have to scrap learning implants to have Slot 1-5 hardwirings?

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Raw Matters
Brilliant Starfire
#95 - 2013-01-17 14:19:00 UTC
I do agree with the OP, one of the many reasons I do not venture into 0.0 is because of my implants. Now I got these +5 and I am not too scared to undock and sometimes drift through low sec without much thought, but 0.0 with the chance to loose more than half a billion worth of ISK when podded without a chance to escape? No way!

Now 0.0 players say: "Whats the deal, just buy a new set!" but that is blatantly ignoring the fact that you earn a lot more money in 0.0 than in high-sec. Currently with maxed out skills and some excellent equipment and ships, I am burning through missions at a speed that scares most people, yet I still would have to run missions for 15-20 hours straight, to refinance my implants. Other players with less skills/equipment would easily have to run twice that much to get their +5 implants back, while 0.0 players can finance those with just one lucky drop in any of these 10/10 DEDs.

If CCP would make it so that you do not loose your attribute implants when dieing, I am sure a lot more people would take a look at 0.0, because then all you can loose is your ship, and that can be fitted properly to match your ISK income.
Doctor Ungabungas
Doomheim
#96 - 2013-01-17 14:24:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Doctor Ungabungas
Malcanis wrote:
Doctor Ungabungas wrote:

What would be the problem with scrapping learning implants and adding another 5 sets of hard wirings that people could use to actually mix up the dynamic of spaceships. An implant that adds another 5MB of drone bandwith or such.


Why do we have to scrap learning implants to have Slot 1-5 hardwirings?


We don't, it would just be a nice synergy where we get two benefits at once:

People worried about losing learning implants would be more willing to get out and lose their 8 million isk rifter, people who love bleeding edge combat can buy a bigger range of hard wirings to give them that 0.3% edge they need.

The majority (ie: The 75% of players who PvP with no implants) of 0.0 players would benefit as well, they would be able to train at the same speed at their +5 high-sec brethren.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#97 - 2013-01-17 14:26:29 UTC
If loss-free combat was what people wanted, we'd have a lot more people on SiSi than we do.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Doctor Ungabungas
Doomheim
#98 - 2013-01-17 14:36:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Doctor Ungabungas
Malcanis wrote:
If loss-free combat was what people wanted, we'd have a lot more people on SiSi than we do.


Maybe people don't want loss free combat, they just don't want to lose their 120 million dollar implants when they feel like flying around a caracal until they lose it.

When I go looking for PvP, I'll know I'll be out there until I die or run out of missiles (this hasn't happened yet) so it's not a matter of risking implants, it's a matter of either going without or knowing that no matter what I am guaranteed to eat a 120m loss.

I choose to go without, because 120m will buy me a lot of caracals. (And I'm not alone, the stats I pulled show 75% of 0.0 capsules killed had no implants.)

So we're basically in a world now where the only people who get to use training implants are 0.1+ dwellers, and people with a lot of money. The second one doesn't bother me as much as the first one does.
Gerard Hareka
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#99 - 2013-01-17 14:45:45 UTC
Doctor Ungabungas wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
If loss-free combat was what people wanted, we'd have a lot more people on SiSi than we do.


Maybe people don't want loss free combat, they just don't want to lose their 120 million dollar implants when they feel like flying around a caracal until they lose it.

When I go looking for PvP, I'll know I'll be out there until I die or run out of missiles (this hasn't happened yet) so it's not a matter of risking implants, it's a matter of either going without or knowing that no matter what I am guaranteed to eat a 120m loss.

I choose to go without, because 120m will buy me a lot of caracals. (And I'm not alone, the stats I pulled show 75% of 0.0 capsules killed had no implants.)

So we're basically in a world now where the only people who get to use training implants are 0.1+ dwellers, and people with a lot of money. The second one doesn't bother me as much as the first one does.


Stop posting finnaly and stop flying with what you cant afford to lose.
CCP Dolan
C C P
C C P Alliance
#100 - 2013-01-17 14:47:01 UTC
Moved to Features and Ideas

CCP Dolan | Community Representative

Twitter: @CCPDolan

Gooby pls