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Remove Attribute Implants and watch 0.0 catch on fire

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La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#61 - 2013-01-16 21:33:41 UTC
This is the wrong reason to remove attribute implants. The reason is to make learning the game less painful for new players. Remove them all together and increase each attribute by 5 or give an additional 25 points to allocate during remaps. This makes it easier on newbies because they won't have the isk to buy new implants every podding but it does make dieing less significant. Making loss less significant is a huge problem so clone costs would have to go up, preferably only the higher SP clones would go up (10,000,000.00+) so as to not punish newbies for learning the hard way. A side-effect of making the game easier to learn is that mission running, specifically highsec mission running becomes less valuable which is a good thing for a variety of reasons.

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Gorn Arming
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#62 - 2013-01-16 21:36:15 UTC
The real problem with learning implants being destructible is not the risk in PvPing--it's that the risk is very unevenly spread through EVE. You're not going to lose your pod in highsec or lowsec (as long as you avoid the locations that are smartbomb-camped on your way home). In nullsec, due to the prevalence of dictors, the odds of getting out with your pod intact are low enough that it's a pleasant surprise when it happens.

The easiest way to solve this would be to drop the cooldown on same-station clone jumps to zero or something nearly as short.
Fluffy Sheep
Contra Operative Knights
#63 - 2013-01-16 21:43:22 UTC
I don't like too much risk and I have things i'm specifically training for that take quite some time. So, I have implants in almost all my clones to help this training process along.

I do have a couple of implant free clones for my characters. Frankly though, the thought of jumping to them and having them likely die (clone upgrade fee + risk of forgetting too) + the thought of being stuck with that slow training clone for 24hr's makes me adverse to using them except for the rarest of occasions. This will change somewhat once I reach my goals but that's still a while off.

So here's the list of possible things that could encourage those like me to go out there more.

1) Reduced implant costs
2) Reduced clone upgrade costs
3) Reduced time between clone jumps (maybe reduced time, but a limit of x jumps / time period to stop frequent use)
4) Reduced standing requirement at npc stations to install clones.

For me, #3 then #2 would seem to be the simplest and most practical solutions as i'm in null already and installing new clones is easy. Also I have better ability to grind back the cost of the clone upgrade.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#64 - 2013-01-17 09:39:07 UTC
Hir Miriel wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Hir Miriel wrote:
Thanks Malcanis.

You mention that the +4/+3 major/minor attribute setup costs the all +5 player about 120 SP an hour.

Which is as far as I can see, priceless. There is no way to buy that, or catch it up.

Unless, perhaps, some sort of loot drop or prize that gave a one time SP boost was connected to the activity. In this case the activity would be hanging out in the badlands of space, doing something presumably violent. The prize/drop could be one use implants or some such.

Of course the trouble with that is the min/max style and whichever is best getting farmed to death, botted and then nerfed to death.

But players that are running risks out in the wilds are also paying the opportunity cost of less SP Gain.


The error lies in assuming that skillpoints are the only form of advancement that matters.


Malcanis,

As a form of advancement, a high score if you will, a few in EVE come to mind; skillpoints, isk, kills, security status, standings and there are probably more. For these forums it would be post counts and Likes if you will. And of course votes for an election are a measure.

To me, skills are becoming more apparent as items that take a lot of time to get. So implants are looming as more important as an aid to achieving skill based goals. And having implants in, increases the risk I carry around. Especially as I'm not a great PvPer.

Jump Clones would seem to be the answer when I get around to having 8 Standing with the NPC corporations or have friends with clone vats.

That may take a while.

So for now, for me, avoiding risk is the wisest course of action. If not the funnest. However mining does allow a lot of forumming, silver linings and all that.

Just wanted to walk through some of my thinking on the issue. Thanks for your response by the way.



Why are you acquiring skillpoints? No one gets a prize for have x skillpoints on his character sheet; skills are only useful insofar as they enable you to do things, or do them slightly better. It's nonsensical to not do things in order to very slightly increase the rate at which you acquire skills.

Additionally, as I said above, there are many forms of character advancement. ISK is one. Even more important are game assets, including not just ships and modules, but things like BPOs and also less obvious assets like bookmarks (having a fall set of ping spots and safesports can be a priceless advantage when you're living outside hi-sec.

Less tangibly, by "playing it safe", you're crippling your skill advancement. Not your character's, yours, you the player. Whilst you're saving a week or so per year on your skillpoint training, other players are undocking and learning how to do things. Scouting, small gang PvP, fleet PvP, exploration, controlling ships, how to move capitals safely, what the aggro rules mean, how to do combat probing, working with a corp, travelling safely through hostile space, using the scanner... and dozens of other vital EVE skills that can't be acquired from skillbooks, only by undocking and playing the game.

It's as if you'd decided to train all the ship skills, and no module or weapon skills whatsoever. Great, you can undock every ship there is! But you can't do anything with your undocked ship. (OK you can with the Freighters). I'm sure that you'd agree that this would be a highly unbalanced and sub-optimal training plan, regardless of the SP/hr.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
TheBlueMonkey
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#65 - 2013-01-17 09:40:12 UTC
You know what, let's just jump to the root of this whole thing.

25+ years to get all skills to level 5 is totally the suck!

EVERYONE should start with all level 5 skills straight away, a bank of 10bil and all ships and mods should be 100isk.

yey, that'd be awesome fun times, especially with all consiquences removed from the game... wooooo

¬_¬

Alternatively, accept that in eve, 24 hours of "SLOWED" skill training ISN'T a big deal.

Seriously, If you're new enough that all your skills complete in under a day, the difference is going to be negligible.
If you're older and your skills take days\weeks to complete, again it's not going to be noticeable unless you stay in a implantless clone.

Seriously, you're just making excuses for why you won't PvP(which is fine if you don't want to, just don't act like you're not for some transparent reasoning), you can start within a day of joining the game as people like dreddit have proven so just get out there and do it.
Nightshade Mary
Darkwater Innovations
#66 - 2013-01-17 09:49:45 UTC
I just base my implants on the relative security of the space the clone will be in.

High sec? Make it expensive.
Null? Slightly cheaper.

No standing for a jumpclone? It has been mentioned before, join one of the corps that offer them as a service. Only takes a day or so.

Fly what you can afford to lose doesn't just apply to the ships, also to what's in your head.
Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
#67 - 2013-01-17 09:50:28 UTC
Iosue wrote:
Nick Asir wrote:
Brooks Puuntai wrote:
You could remove implants, and replace with a legal attribute boosters. With a reduced cost being that it's a consumable means less risk if flying with it active.


Why not this? Sounds like a great idea to me. Would make smuggling a much bigger part of the game.


because then you would end up with lots of people holed up in their stations with piles of boosters to ensure they get the max sp all the time.


And how is that's different from now? At least with boosters it would reduce the cost of losing them, and you can control your attributes better with out stacking your clones with implants.

CCP's Motto: If it isn't broken, break it. If it is broken, ignore it. Improving NPE / Dynamic New Eden
psycho freak
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#68 - 2013-01-17 10:02:03 UTC
Tbh implants are dirt cheap these days learning imps more so coz of fw

most losec guys fly around in pirate implants that cost billions do they stay docked?

Not undocking coz implants is just stupid tbh grow a pair its only pixels and at end of the day who actually gives a fu#k?

Go out enjoy the game stop beeing a pansy

my spelling sux brb find phone number for someone who gives a fu*k

nop cant find it
Gerard Hareka
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#69 - 2013-01-17 10:23:49 UTC
Everyone just should start with all lv5

CCP please dumb the game down even more.
flakeys
Doomheim
#70 - 2013-01-17 10:33:05 UTC
Tom Gerard wrote:
Players including myself eventually left the null-security organizations as the value of SP per hour exceeded the value of working with other players.




One of the saddest excuses i ever seen for staying in empire to be honest and the first time i heard this excuse in my 9 years in eve.


If you care more for your net SP gain over player interaction then what the hell are you doing in an mmorpg.

We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid.
Hir Miriel
Elves In Space
#71 - 2013-01-17 12:44:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Hir Miriel
Malcanis,

Sub-optimal training plan? Sounds too organised for me.

I think our goals differ perhaps. Not even sure what mine are yet. Something along the lines of flying a Retriever and Arbitrator, then working out how two players can set up a research station, if at all.

Along the way making sure I don't lose about 10% of my wealth by getting pod killed, i.e. PvP.

Point is, implants do figure into how I perceive PvP. Perhaps they do for other players as well.

I agree there are many skills to be learned in games and there are many games in our lives. But for me, there is no wrong way to play a game. Just different ways. And in this one isolated part of the Universe, over this one dust speck of an issue, I think that maybe some change to how implants work, would effect player risk assessments of PvP

~ ~~ Thinking inside Schrodinger's sandbox. ~~ ~
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#72 - 2013-01-17 12:55:12 UTC
psycho freak wrote:
Tbh implants are dirt cheap these days learning imps more so coz of fw

most losec guys fly around in pirate implants that cost billions do they stay docked?

Lowsec guys don't have to worry about bubbles, like, ever.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Skippermonkey
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#73 - 2013-01-17 13:06:27 UTC
I'd rather have cheaper clone costs

COME AT ME BRO

I'LL JUST BE DOCKED IN THIS STATION
Moonasha
Orcses and Goblinz
#74 - 2013-01-17 13:13:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Moonasha
Couldn't agree more. Removing learning skills was a step in the right direction. Implants should be next. It doesn't dumb anything down, because implants are rather binary as is - and implants like slaves and such will still be used.

Just give all characters +5 attribute points, and remove attribute implants from the game. This also opens 5 more slots for skill hardwiring. Would be way more fun. I'd love to see lots of new skill hardwiring implants, such as drone implants.

I would personally go into null sec if this happened. I used to live in low sec, and had ample opportunity to enter null sec on random roams. I've stopped from entering null sec countless times, due to having slaves or +5s in my head, because my jump clone was jumps away from the op. Jump clones aren't really a solution.

People are afraid to lose training time, not the isk. Isk you can always make, but time you cannot get back. People will still lose skill hardwiring like idiots if you take attribute implants out.
Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#75 - 2013-01-17 13:15:40 UTC
I'm sorry, it has been 4 pages now, have anybody brought up that obligatory swapping clones without jumping (and so with no JC timer) / reducing JC cooldown / whatever idea? If no, then here it is.

Future of T3 cruisers - multi-tool they aspired to be instead of sledgehammer they have become
Nightshade Mary
Darkwater Innovations
#76 - 2013-01-17 13:38:54 UTC
There is nothing wrong with implants.

It is all about risk vs reward. You want the reward of more SP/hr? You run the risk of losing the expensive implants.

Eve is not a nice place, it was never meant to be.

This all reminds me way too much of Ultima Online, they took out non-consentual PVP and the whole game went down the shitter.
Doctor Ungabungas
Doomheim
#77 - 2013-01-17 13:41:46 UTC
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
Seems the smart thing to do would be to keep a clone with cheaper implant in a station near by.

You can have, what, 5 clones?


If you could jump to new clones at will, that would be perfect.

I think the 24 hour timer is a bit ridiculous. It was meant to prevent people from teleporting around the universe at will, but maybe they could put a distance limitation on clone jumping instead. Maybe same region or adjacent systems rather than 24 hours.
Doctor Ungabungas
Doomheim
#78 - 2013-01-17 13:43:06 UTC
Nightshade Mary wrote:
There is nothing wrong with implants.

It is all about risk vs reward. You want the reward of more SP/hr? You run the risk of losing the expensive implants.

Eve is not a nice place, it was never meant to be.


Sure you can argue risk vs reward all you like, but when people won't take the risk then the whole ''risk vs reward' argument is meaningless.

You might offer a 'play russian roulette game' where you can win 50 million dollars, but if everyone is too scared to play it then the game becomes pointless.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#79 - 2013-01-17 13:43:22 UTC
Moonasha wrote:
Couldn't agree more. Removing learning skills was a step in the right direction. Implants should be next. It doesn't dumb anything down, because implants are rather binary as is - and implants like slaves and such will still be used.

Just give all characters +5 attribute points, and remove attribute implants from the game. This also opens 5 more slots for skill hardwiring. Would be way more fun. I'd love to see lots of new skill hardwiring implants, such as drone implants.

I would personally go into null sec if this happened. I used to live in low sec, and had ample opportunity to enter null sec on random roams. I've stopped from entering null sec countless times, due to having slaves or +5s in my head, because my jump clone was jumps away from the op. Jump clones aren't really a solution.

People are afraid to lose training time, not the isk. Isk you can always make, but time you cannot get back. People will still lose skill hardwiring like idiots if you take attribute implants out.


The logical conclusion to this line of thought is to simply remove attributes altogether and have all training take place at a fixed rate.

I plugged in +4s a week or two after LP stores were introduced, and I kept right on trucking through 0.0, lo-sec and everywhere else with +4s in my head. Yes I lost clones. yes I had to buy new implants. Usually the cost of a pair of +4s was less than the value of the ship I lost, and to be frank, I never gave it a second thought. It was just a part of the cost of doing business.

What you're saying is quite literally that because you're too scared to take a risk in order to gain an advantage, you should be granted that advantage without taking the risk, and no one should be able to get an advantage over you by taking a risk.

Why shouldn't I be allowed to train faster than you if I put some assets on the line to do so?

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Doctor Ungabungas
Doomheim
#80 - 2013-01-17 13:45:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Doctor Ungabungas
Malcanis wrote:
Why shouldn't I be allowed to train faster than you if I put some assets on the line to do so?


I'd look at it from the point of view of 'what's better for the game' - 50 people PvPing and playing EXTREME HARDCORE RISK HEROES or 500 people PvPing and playing Only Slightly Hardcore Risk Heroes or 5000 people PvPing and playing very little risk heroes.

I don't know the answer, but I'm pretty sure it's not the 50 guys.

I do like the idea of dropping learning implants entirely and adding more hard wirings and 'corporate implant' sets (to go along side the pirate faction ones) .