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CSM notes on faucets & sinks
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DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
#1 - 2013-01-16 18:42:47 UTC
Quote:

Dr.EyjoG repeated his statement from FanFest 2012 that the sinks and faucets in the game are not correct (which is relevant to the previous discussion) and pulled up a chart demonstrating this. By far the largest faucet in the game is NPC Bounty Prizes, at over 30T ISK/month. The biggest sink is Skill Books, at a mere 6T ISK/month.


Dr E mentioned that he will be later doing a blog this month I hope it includes this graph ( for say at least themonth of December).
Such info is not without precedent last year CCP released this info & TwoStep compiled it very very nicely:
http://twostep4csm.blogspot.com/2012/03/its-econmony-stupid.html

This sub forums would probablybe the best place to put forth ideas on new sinks & discuss current faucets.
An' then Chicken@little.com, he come scramblin outta the    Terminal room screaming "The system's crashing! The system's    crashing!" -Uncle RAMus, 'Tales for Cyberpsychotic Children'
Kara Books
Deal with IT.
#2 - 2013-01-16 19:48:06 UTC
NPC prices for everything need more increase.

Mission difficulty of NPC rats need an increase and payout increased depending on the specific difficulty of said rat in mission.

I propose, half the rats in missions get completely random difficulty modifiers, from 1-10, 1 would pay the least ISK for that rat kill 10 would pay the most and of course the drops must be stingy on the 10's and 1's while 7-8 yield meta 4 loot and a .0000001% chance for random officer type drop.

possibly even giving players a chance to play easy mode with half payout drops and bounty and regular mode for new changes to even things out commercially wise.
mynnna
State War Academy
Caldari State
#3 - 2013-01-16 19:53:11 UTC
Bump manufacturing fees in highsec. If my estimates are correct, changing it from the current negligible system to a mere quarter percent of estimated value of the production job is worth upwards of 3-6T isk/month in sinks while having negligible effects on the sale price of items between players.

Different approach: Eliminate isk payouts and time bonuses for missions, replace them with an LP payout instead. This approaches the problem by both removing a faucet (roughly ~6T/mo by Diagoras' old numbers) and adding a sink (the isk required to spend that LP, which is typically 1000 isk per LP on the most convenient cashout items.) This also allows them to dial mission income around a bit, depending on the rate that they replace the isk payouts with LP at. For example, if they replace it at a 1000 isk per LP rate, then a mission runner would have to buy items with that LP that are worth a final sale price of 1000 isk/LP to maintain his previous income...but could increase his income by taking a more thoughtful approach to redeeming his LP than "buy as many implants as possible and dump to buy orders."

Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#4 - 2013-01-16 20:31:08 UTC
CCP seem to appropriately be more concerned with money velocity than absolute values. Also, we don't have an important number: how much of those 30T end up segregated or abandoned (due i.e. to players turnover)? Without those informations it's not possible to balance inflow and outflow.

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mynnna
State War Academy
Caldari State
#5 - 2013-01-16 21:16:39 UTC
Velocity of money and the increasing thereof is the whole point behind my theory of PLEX pricing that I've floated around - ie, that PLEX respond to anything that lets you earn a lot more money, lets you earn it a lot more passively, or both. Relative sinks to faucets remain important because lots of isk in the game means lots of isk to impart that velocity on, if that makes sense, but an abundance of isk isn't necessarily the primary factor.

If they're "getting it", that's good to see imo.

Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal
Kara Books
Deal with IT.
#6 - 2013-01-16 21:20:00 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
CCP seem to appropriately be more concerned with money velocity than absolute values. Also, we don't have an important number: how much of those 30T end up segregated or abandoned (due i.e. to players turnover)? Without those informations it's not possible to balance inflow and outflow.


This, is a bicycle made into an airplane.
DarthNefarius
Minmatar Heavy Industries
#7 - 2013-01-17 02:18:11 UTC  |  Edited by: DarthNefarius
Here's my stab at proposing a new ISK sink: Paying out of bounties to NPC's ( & CCP DEVs) that kill capsuleer ships.
But I'd like to see Eve mail notification to the bounty placer that it was paid to an NPC
An' then Chicken@little.com, he come scramblin outta the    Terminal room screaming "The system's crashing! The system's    crashing!" -Uncle RAMus, 'Tales for Cyberpsychotic Children'
Candy Oshea
Techfree Investment Group
#8 - 2013-01-17 02:27:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Candy Oshea
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
CCP seem to appropriately be more concerned with money velocity than absolute values. Also, we don't have an important number: how much of those 30T end up segregated or abandoned (due i.e. to players turnover)? Without those informations it's not possible to balance inflow and outflow.


in laymen terms, how do you "balance" the equation with a potential of 20-30% of that 30T on inactive accounts.

iCandy  - I have accidently swallowed some Scrabble tiles, my next shit could spell disaster!
Rengerel en Distel
#9 - 2013-01-17 02:32:33 UTC
My idea for a sink is modular personal POS modules :P

I'd still love to see rat bounties given by sec, so we can see the breakdown between high, low, null.

With the increase in shiptoasting, the Report timer needs to be shortened.
Candy Oshea
Techfree Investment Group
#10 - 2013-01-17 03:16:02 UTC
Isk Sink: Name change & employment history wiped when buying character - cost 2 plex (destroyed)

re-invent yourself literally.

iCandy  - I have accidently swallowed some Scrabble tiles, my next shit could spell disaster!
RavenPaine
RaVeN Alliance
#11 - 2013-01-17 03:18:53 UTC
I didn't see Alliance fee's in the list. Should be a substantial amount

Also: Is there a realistic summary/equation that sums up the net results of ship losses in EVE?

And Last: Some peoples goal in ANY game, is to hoard ISK. This would be funds that never really affect markets or economies. I would think at some point, these same players will find a 'comfort zone' and quit generating ISK altogether. But really, my point is, does stale ISK (ISK in some random wallet) really hurt anything?
Debra Tao
Perkone
Caldari State
#12 - 2013-01-17 03:20:26 UTC
VV and Mynna are making a good point, it's not all about isk sink and faucet. I would bet that the income disparity in EVE is tremendous, while the mission runers, miners and low SP chars in null have an income ranging from 10 to 30/40 mil isk per hour there is that tiny portion of players and alliances that have a huge income.

You just have to read some blogs and read scc-lounge to see that a tiny portion of the player base can make billions each day. On top of that there are these major alliances that profit from moon goo to stockpile isk... All that act as an isk sink because the major part of the isk that goes into the wallet of Mynna, the CFC and so on won't be reinjected into the economy anytime soon.


FW has demonstrated this...
The FW acted as a (temporary) transfer of wealth from rich traders buying implants in bulk to FWers. Thus making the average income per hour of FW grunts much higher than usually (coming from a mere 20-40 mil isk per hour to hundreds of isk per hour) and disrupting temporarily the PLEX market. It was no surprise to see the PLEX price fall back to a more reasonable price after the fix.

To sum up my thoughts there are probably too much isk faucets right now but it's not as big of a problem as some may think, the inflation has been mostly related to the drone region nerf. Removing bounty from high sec rats (giving more LPs in compensation) and maybe diminishing bounties in null (i am sure CCP can compensate that in some ways) seem like reasonnable ideas.

I don't see how you can say that bumping manufacturing fees in high sec will have "negligeable effects" on the market.
Candy Oshea
Techfree Investment Group
#13 - 2013-01-17 03:22:55 UTC
RavenPaine wrote:
I didn't see Alliance fee's in the list. Should be a substantial amount

Also: Is there a realistic summary/equation that sums up the net results of ship losses in EVE?

And Last: Some peoples goal in ANY game, is to hoard ISK. This would be funds that never really affect markets or economies. I would think at some point, these same players will find a 'comfort zone' and quit generating ISK altogether. But really, my point is, does stale ISK (ISK in some random wallet) really hurt anything?


Agree with you there, +Like

Whos to say all that 30T is actually in 'play'

iCandy  - I have accidently swallowed some Scrabble tiles, my next shit could spell disaster!
Debra Tao
Perkone
Caldari State
#14 - 2013-01-17 03:25:08 UTC
RavenPaine wrote:


Also: Is there a realistic summary/equation that sums up the net results of ship losses in EVE?




Ship losses aren't an isk sink, there is no isk destroyed when you lose a ship only value the same way that a miner doesn't create any isk but creates value. Actually due to the insurance system it's more of an isk faucet than anything else and to be honest i don't find that system really interesting so i wouldn't mind if CCP just delete that.
RavenPaine
RaVeN Alliance
#15 - 2013-01-17 03:41:57 UTC
Debra Tao wrote:
RavenPaine wrote:


Also: Is there a realistic summary/equation that sums up the net results of ship losses in EVE?




Ship losses aren't an isk sink, there is no isk destroyed when you lose a ship only value the same way that a miner doesn't create any isk but creates value. Actually due to the insurance system it's more of an isk faucet than anything else and to be honest i don't find that system really interesting so i wouldn't mind if CCP just delete that.




I agree with you on the technical application of the words 'sink' and 'faucet'. Value loss is a good term for ship loss. My point is though, isn't value loss essentially the same thing? And doesn't it have the same leveling effect on macro economics?

Also: Add pod loss to my previous list. Implants = value loss in the same way.
Debra Tao
Perkone
Caldari State
#16 - 2013-01-17 03:52:32 UTC
RavenPaine wrote:
Debra Tao wrote:
RavenPaine wrote:


Also: Is there a realistic summary/equation that sums up the net results of ship losses in EVE?




Ship losses aren't an isk sink, there is no isk destroyed when you lose a ship only value the same way that a miner doesn't create any isk but creates value. Actually due to the insurance system it's more of an isk faucet than anything else and to be honest i don't find that system really interesting so i wouldn't mind if CCP just delete that.




I agree with you on the technical application of the words 'sink' and 'faucet'. Value loss is a good term for ship loss. My point is though, isn't value loss essentially the same thing? And doesn't it have the same leveling effect on macro economics?

Also: Add pod loss to my previous list. Implants = value loss in the same way.


The thing CCP is trying to do when balancing isk sink and faucet is controlling inflation. When you lose a ship you wil have to buy a new one thus giving isk to manufacturers, explorers and whatnot so you will just transfer part of your isk to those people while CCP will only take a marginal cut from taxes. If these people get richer thanks to your loss they may buy new stuff thus rising prices while transferring the isk to yet another person in game... So ship losses actually tend to increase the circulation of isk ingame and if the circulation of a currency tend to increase then the inflation will increase too because everyone will have a higher income so will buy new stuff and so on...

So ship losses create an isk faucet (the insurance) that is clearly not compensate by the taxes. On top of that it increases the circulation of the currency thus it creates inflation.
Candy Oshea
Techfree Investment Group
#17 - 2013-01-17 04:15:30 UTC
Debra Tao wrote:

When you lose a ship you wil have to buy a new one thus giving isk to manufacturers, explorers and whatnot so you will just transfer part of your isk to those people while CCP will only take a marginal cut from taxes.


A killmail takes a 300m hulk/asset for e.g. turns it into item drops, a small insurance payout & a small amount of sorebutt.

Now, if i have to buy a new one, do i still have 300m? no. i have item drops & a small insurance payout. the game/myself has lost isk. whether the isk was 'sunk' directly by CCP from taxes or not is irrelevant, 300m isk has been removed from the game.

I believe what you are saying is that ship losses, stimulate & propagate industry types to make ships etc and sell them. thats fine, but i still lost isk in the first instance, not when i buy a new one.

i can't see it any other way.

iCandy  - I have accidently swallowed some Scrabble tiles, my next shit could spell disaster!
Debra Tao
Perkone
Caldari State
#18 - 2013-01-17 04:33:32 UTC
Sorry to say it bluntly but i don't think you understand what this is about.

If your Hulk gets destroyed you will lose an asset, you will lose something valuable but the game will not see any isk being removed from that loss. Thus it's not an isk sink... The discussion here is not about if this loss matters to you will if you will have to grind isk a bit longer but if this loss will mitigate the creation of isk or will tend to reduce the inflation. In both cases it won't.
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#19 - 2013-01-17 04:37:15 UTC
Kara Books wrote:
NPC prices for everything need more increase.

Mission difficulty of NPC rats need an increase and payout increased depending on the specific difficulty of said rat in mission.

I propose, half the rats in missions get completely random difficulty modifiers, from 1-10, 1 would pay the least ISK for that rat kill 10 would pay the most and of course the drops must be stingy on the 10's and 1's while 7-8 yield meta 4 loot and a .0000001% chance for random officer type drop.

possibly even giving players a chance to play easy mode with half payout drops and bounty and regular mode for new changes to even things out commercially wise.

"this change would also greatly benefit new players"

I should buy an Ishtar.
Candy Oshea
Techfree Investment Group
#20 - 2013-01-17 04:40:49 UTC
Debra Tao wrote:
Sorry to say it bluntly but i don't think you understand what this is about.

If your Hulk gets destroyed you will lose an asset, you will lose something valuable but the game will not see any isk being removed from that loss. Thus it's not an isk sink... The discussion here is not about if this loss matters to you will if you will have to grind isk a bit longer but if this loss will mitigate the creation of isk or will tend to reduce the inflation. In both cases it won't.


Couldn't disagree with you more.

Do you consider an Asset as isk?

iCandy  - I have accidently swallowed some Scrabble tiles, my next shit could spell disaster!
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