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CSM minutes on FW
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ground ctrl
Goose Swarm Coalition
#1 - 2013-01-16 20:46:27 UTC
Here is the link FW starts at page 51:

http://community.eveonline.com/council/transcripts/2012/CSM_CCP_Meetings_December_2012.pdf

Bottom line don't expect things to change.

1) CCP agrees that most people doing plexing are interested in pve and not good fights. That was the underlying assumption that was not challenged. Everyone seemed fine with that. So it seems ccp has no plans to make the war an actual pvp mechanic.

I recall when Hans first started on csm he insisted on fw being a pvp venue, but he no longer pushed that. Everyone seemed fine that FW sov is effectively a pve race.

2) CCP and CSM also appearantly concluded that there did not need to be any balancing because there was a decrease in the biggest militias since October 22nd. Its funny that they interpretted the drop in caldari numbers as proof that the system is self balancing. They seemed unaware that they just gifted gallente a huge advantage with the patch and that that could account for their increased numbers. It would be worth knowing if they might agree they drew conclusions a bit too fast given that there seems to be a persistant gap between the winning and losing side after October 22nd.

3) Fozzie was disappointed that the count back did not make it in retribution and hopes to still do that but it is not clear when/if that will happen.

4) maybe some more navy cap boosters.


The rest was not really stuff I care about.
Taoist Dragon
Okata Syndicate
#2 - 2013-01-16 20:52:28 UTC
ground ctrl wrote:
Here is the link FW starts at page 51:

http://community.eveonline.com/council/transcripts/2012/CSM_CCP_Meetings_December_2012.pdf

Bottom line don't expect things to change.

1) CCP agrees that most people doing plexing are interested in pve and not good fights. That was the underlying assumption that was not challenged. Everyone seemed fine with that. So it seems ccp has no plans to make the war an actual pvp mechanic.

I recall when Hans first started on csm he insisted on fw being a pvp venue, but he no longer pushed that. Everyone seemed fine that FW sov is effectively a pve race.

2) CCP and CSM also appearantly concluded that there did not need to be any balancing because there was a decrease in the biggest militias since October 22nd. Its funny that they interpretted the drop in caldari numbers as proof that the system is self balancing. They seemed unaware that they just gifted gallente a huge advantage with the patch and that that could account for their increased numbers. It would be worth knowing if they might agree they drew conclusions a bit too fast given that there seems to be a persistant gap between the winning and losing side after October 22nd.

3) Fozzie was disappointed that the count back did not make it in retribution and hopes to still do that but it is not clear when/if that will happen.

4) maybe some more navy cap boosters.


The rest was not really stuff I care about.


If you don't like it leave.

That is the Way, the Tao.

Balance is everything.
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#3 - 2013-01-16 21:19:33 UTC
Item #1 is misunderstood on your part.

They actually picked up on what we (me, me, me, me, and that other guy) have been yelling since LP was thrown at everything .. that more LP should come from pew by incentivizing pew MOAR!

CCP is of same mind but afraid that the "Ma Wallet" crowd will throw a fit so want to go slow on that count.

Quote:
Soundwave responded that he didn’t think people inherently choose the most profitable thing, they
choose the best thing they can do that fits their play-style. People running the complexes aren't usually
looking for a good fight.

Good to see that SW is on the ball and can see that farmers are farmers with the right to stab the hell out of their ships .. now if only he could be made to see that the very same right should bar them from having any impact on anything other than their wallets Big smile

All in all, the minutes gave me the impression that Fozzie is a lot more attuned to the goings on than any of the other participants. What tickled me the most was the mention that FW should be "a thing to do in low-sec' and not the definition of low-sec, gives me hope that they are brain-storming options for a LS revamp (THAR BE PIRATES!) which has been sought by just about everyone of note the past 5-6 years.
SaltyandSweet
Oblivion Watch
HYDRA RELOADED
#4 - 2013-01-16 21:26:12 UTC
good read.

Im So Baller I Buy Plex Cuz im too lazy to do PVE!
ground ctrl
Goose Swarm Coalition
#5 - 2013-01-16 21:56:02 UTC
Veshta Yoshida wrote:
Item #1 is misunderstood on your part.

They actually picked up on what we (me, me, me, me, and that other guy) have been yelling since LP was thrown at everything .. that more LP should come from pew by incentivizing pew MOAR!

CCP is of same mind but afraid that the "Ma Wallet" crowd will throw a fit so want to go slow on that count.

Quote:
Soundwave responded that he didn’t think people inherently choose the most profitable thing, they
choose the best thing they can do that fits their play-style. People running the complexes aren't usually
looking for a good fight.

Good to see that SW is on the ball and can see that farmers are farmers with the right to stab the hell out of their ships .. now if only he could be made to see that the very same right should bar them from having any impact on anything other than their wallets Big smile

All in all, the minutes gave me the impression that Fozzie is a lot more attuned to the goings on than any of the other participants. What tickled me the most was the mention that FW should be "a thing to do in low-sec' and not the definition of low-sec, gives me hope that they are brain-storming options for a LS revamp (THAR BE PIRATES!) which has been sought by just about everyone of note the past 5-6 years.



Sorry Veshta I am not sure what you think I misunderstood.

SW acknowledged most people running plexes aren't looking to fight. Does that not mean they are just looking for the pve? Did anyone say this was a problem or that any action would be taken about this? Seems to me they are clearly saying the sov war is fine as a pve race.
ground ctrl
Goose Swarm Coalition
#6 - 2013-01-16 21:56:43 UTC
Taoist Dragon wrote:
ground ctrl wrote:
Here is the link FW starts at page 51:

http://community.eveonline.com/council/transcripts/2012/CSM_CCP_Meetings_December_2012.pdf

Bottom line don't expect things to change.

1) CCP agrees that most people doing plexing are interested in pve and not good fights. That was the underlying assumption that was not challenged. Everyone seemed fine with that. So it seems ccp has no plans to make the war an actual pvp mechanic.

I recall when Hans first started on csm he insisted on fw being a pvp venue, but he no longer pushed that. Everyone seemed fine that FW sov is effectively a pve race.

2) CCP and CSM also appearantly concluded that there did not need to be any balancing because there was a decrease in the biggest militias since October 22nd. Its funny that they interpretted the drop in caldari numbers as proof that the system is self balancing. They seemed unaware that they just gifted gallente a huge advantage with the patch and that that could account for their increased numbers. It would be worth knowing if they might agree they drew conclusions a bit too fast given that there seems to be a persistant gap between the winning and losing side after October 22nd.

3) Fozzie was disappointed that the count back did not make it in retribution and hopes to still do that but it is not clear when/if that will happen.

4) maybe some more navy cap boosters.


The rest was not really stuff I care about.


If you don't like it leave.


If you don't want to read opinions that vary from your own, you shouldn't read other peoples posts.
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#7 - 2013-01-16 22:14:18 UTC
ground ctrl wrote:
Sorry Veshta I am not sure what you think I misunderstood....

SW's comment is smack in the middle of some back'n'forth on the topic and consensus (which is against him) is a very hard thing to shake.
Just the idea of auto-run timers will have a huge impact on the farm aspect and it would let both sides of the argument 'win' by letting farmers be farmers but without the mad advantage that current timers gives them .. comes down to not having the war in its entirety controlled by people with no actual interest in said war.

Would love for LP to be shifted to pew but it is a hard nut to crack, have suggested it be a modifier applied on plex grid to limit abuse, but even I know it will not prevent it completely so I can understand CCP hesitation on the matter.
Taoist Dragon
Okata Syndicate
#8 - 2013-01-16 22:20:26 UTC
ground ctrl wrote:


If you don't want to read opinions that vary from your own, you shouldn't read other peoples posts.


I read a lot of posts that have differing opinions to me. I am all for expressing opinions and giving good arguments for these opinions (it's a hobby of mine!)

You on the other hand are just whining constantly about a set of game mechanics that you don't like or can't adapt to. I honestly can't understand why you play/pay for a game that you don't like.

I have moved from mission running to exploration (high, low & null) to PI and industry and whatever else as my mood suits me pretty much since day 1 of eve. I have even takena couple year break during 2006-2007 cos I was fed up!

Sounds like to me that you are burnt out and need a break mate.

That is the Way, the Tao.

Balance is everything.
ground ctrl
Goose Swarm Coalition
#9 - 2013-01-16 22:31:05 UTC
Taoist Dragon wrote:
ground ctrl wrote:


If you don't want to read opinions that vary from your own, you shouldn't read other peoples posts.


I read a lot of posts that have differing opinions to me. I am all for expressing opinions and giving good arguments for these opinions (it's a hobby of mine!)

You on the other hand are just whining constantly about a set of game mechanics that you don't like or can't adapt to. I honestly can't understand why you play/pay for a game that you don't like.

I have moved from mission running to exploration (high, low & null) to PI and industry and whatever else as my mood suits me pretty much since day 1 of eve. I have even takena couple year break during 2006-2007 cos I was fed up!

Sounds like to me that you are burnt out and need a break mate.



If you like the pve race that is faction war sov, then great. Do it and defend it. I don't care.

I had good reason to believe that ccp would make fighting for fw sov great. But we had some concern that CCP would just throw isk at the mechanic to attract farmers and call it fixed. Unfortunately that is exactly what happened. I am pointing that fact out, because its a real shame. If you don't like reading that, then don't read my posts. I don't care.

My main account has expired that is in fact why I am posting with an alt. But my personal business is really beside the point of whether fw is broken and why. So really stop trying to mind my business.

Trinkets friend
Sudden Buggery
Sending Thots And Players
#10 - 2013-01-16 22:44:34 UTC
Until EWAR frigs can fly cloaked, get no 5s delay on decloaking and get a +5 to warp disruptor strength, and are combat-capable, we will have stabbed cloaky bantams and whatnot crapping up plexes.

Or, more un-gated complexes. Or all complexes un-gated, just restrict who can initiate warp-to OUTSIDE the plex, instead of making people warp to a deadspace gate.

Enable cloaky flying gankers, and the alts will shunt off elsewhere.

~~ Localectomy Blog ~~
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#11 - 2013-01-16 22:56:15 UTC
It's not 'your business' if you post in every single FW thread about how miserable you are. Roll

The FW part of the minutes is not really anything shocking. We all expected Retribution to be the final say and lo and behold it was. The part between the lines that I found interesting is that they acknowledge that system possession is not as sexy as it could be. They also point out - and I whole heartedly agree with this - that it's an Eve-wide problem and not just Low Sec. Fix Null and you'll help Low out.

Areas of Eve should compete for people's attention. Are you not happy with the FW system? There should be other things for you to do in low sec, wormholes, or heaven forbid, even Null. Currently there really isn't. What if an alliance like Iron Oxide could find a spot in Null and raid the Goon's money train? Would that offer them more challenge and excitement? Would that offer more liquidity on the FW front? My apologies to I.O. as I'm just trying to make a point. The best thing that could be done to FW is to fix other areas of Eve, especially Null, to compete with it.
IbanezLaney
The Church of Awesome
#12 - 2013-01-17 00:00:43 UTC
What I can't understand is why simple fixes are not even considered.

Just making cloaks and stabs not work in plex button radius is a fix that drives pvp and discourages non pvping farmers.
This change would make all factions happy and does not favor one over the other.

We only really enter plexes to shoot people and plexing is supposed to be a pvp based mechanic - hence the one rat now.
So it is confusing that one day CCP say - oh it should be pvp driven and change the rats and buttons but then do not make plexes an uncloakable spot and put an 80km radius warp bubble around the plex buttons. (but leave tiimer at 30km to count down.)

CCP contradict themselves from patch to patch. Some consistency would be nice.


It's either pvp or pve, decide and stick to one - stop changing what you think FW and plexes should be every 2nd week.

Lets kick the hornets nest a bit:
No point for FW players to band together and vote for a FW CSM ever again. Total waste of time even thinking about CSMs.
CPP themselves have toons playing FW and they somehow 'magically' can't see the problem or work out how to fix it.

What could Hans tell them that they can't already see or read in feedback threads themselves?

What can or will a CSM do or say when the people making it are playing (only on winning sides) and believe it's fine?

No offense to Hans - I supported him and think he had good intentions at 1st, but lets be honest - he has zero say on anything and thinks too linear for the job he took on.
His replies to many peoples suggestions are proof of that - he couldn't comprehend many perspectives and his answers were sometimes unrelated to the question/concern.

My concerns about the faction police hurting their own militia were one (It's bad from an RP and an FW perspective and doen't stop me ganking carebear pods in jita if I want to) - did I get an intelligent and constructive response outlining why or why not this was in issue? No - he ignored the actual post and went on about 'being a pirate haz consequences' instead of reading and comprehending the actual question.
This is when I finally realized CSM means nothing and they just pick and choose to put forward to CCP the ideas that suit them and their faction/play style.


Why is it that very simple to implement suggestions that would fix it are ignored?
It is very telling that CCP only drop toons in the winning sides and think 'It's fixed'
Hilarious tbh.

This was quickly typed while pretending to be working so I hope it all makes sense.

https://soundcloud.com/ibanezlaney
Garr Earthbender
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#13 - 2013-01-17 00:17:48 UTC
1st off, thanks for your work on FW Hans. You were the right man for the job and I feel you did it well.

On topic, I disagree that LP should heavily favor PvP. This would discourage bringing in new players into FW because their PvP skills (as in SP and skills from experience). Sure the vets would do fine, but new players to FW would get trounced and not make much LP.

Also, I've always seen PvE as a way to make ISK (and less fun) with PvP as an ISK sink (and WAAAAY more fun).

-Scissors is overpowered, rock is fine. -Paper
Squatdog
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#14 - 2013-01-17 01:30:54 UTC
The minutes seemed to completely miss the single most jarring imbalance in Faction Warfare ie: the 'losing' side getting punished with a 50% LP reduction (while the 'winning' side gets an easily achievable +150% bonus from T4).

This means that players will simply leave the 'losing' side or be discouraged from joining in the first place, while all the farmers and gankbears will flock to the 'winning' side for free LP and cheap ganks.

If anything, T1 should be the default, or at most a trival penalty
subtle turtle
Doozer Mining Cartel
#15 - 2013-01-17 02:15:10 UTC
Garr Earthbender wrote:
1st off, thanks for your work on FW Hans. You were the right man for the job and I feel you did it well.

On topic, I disagree that LP should heavily favor PvP. This would discourage bringing in new players into FW because their PvP skills (as in SP and skills from experience). Sure the vets would do fine, but new players to FW would get trounced and not make much LP.

Also, I've always seen PvE as a way to make ISK (and less fun) with PvP as an ISK sink (and WAAAAY more fun).



Agreed. I also have always maintained that in Eve, PVP should NEVER be a isk-earning activity directly. Sure, you should have to fight for space, etc..., but the actual PVP itself, ships blowing up other ships, needs to be a net loss on the market. This is what makes PVP special in Eve, because you are engaging in a risk. If you earn ISK by fighting, the risk is diminished, and therefore the reward for winning is diluted. The fact that every time I PVP, I am risking the real-world time that I invested to earn the ship I am flying is what gives me the thrill and rush in combat. If you pay pilots to PVP, you risk ruining that in a very real, game breaking way.
ground ctrl
Goose Swarm Coalition
#16 - 2013-01-17 02:32:38 UTC
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
It's not 'your business' if you post in every single FW thread about how miserable you are. Roll


I don't post about myself. I post about the game. I do not tell you things like "if you like faction war so much then get a bunch more alt accounts" because a) its none of my business and b) it adds nothing to discussions of the game.

Zarnak Wulf wrote:

The FW part of the minutes is not really anything shocking. We all expected Retribution to be the final say and lo and behold it was. The part between the lines that I found interesting is that they acknowledge that system possession is not as sexy as it could be. They also point out - and I whole heartedly agree with this - that it's an Eve-wide problem and not just Low Sec. Fix Null and you'll help Low out.

Areas of Eve should compete for people's attention. Are you not happy with the FW system? There should be other things for you to do in low sec, wormholes, or heaven forbid, even Null. Currently there really isn't. What if an alliance like Iron Oxide could find a spot in Null and raid the Goon's money train? Would that offer them more challenge and excitement? Would that offer more liquidity on the FW front? My apologies to I.O. as I'm just trying to make a point. The best thing that could be done to FW is to fix other areas of Eve, especially Null, to compete with it.



Hans had said in an earlier thread that ccp didn't always listen to him, regarding faction war, so I wasn't sure if he was still pushing that he wanted fw to be a pvp game. It seems quite clear that ccp is happy the way it is, as a pve race, and they don't intend to change it. Hans said he was happy with it too.

ground ctrl
Goose Swarm Coalition
#17 - 2013-01-17 02:38:05 UTC
Squatdog wrote:
The minutes seemed to completely miss the single most jarring imbalance in Faction Warfare ie: the 'losing' side getting punished with a 50% LP reduction (while the 'winning' side gets an easily achievable +150% bonus from T4).

This means that players will simply leave the 'losing' side or be discouraged from joining in the first place, while all the farmers and gankbears will flock to the 'winning' side for free LP and cheap ganks.

If anything, T1 should be the default, or at most a trival penalty



To be fair they really didn't have the data on this. They still weren't sure if people would choose more money instead of less money.

It appears they were interpretting the people going to gallente and leaving caldari as evidence that the losing side could attract players. The problem with that analysis was that Caldari was losing as of October 22nd patch so the data actually showed the opposite of what they thought.

They also interpretted the farmers leaving minmatar en mass as some sort of proof that there was sufficient balance. Like I said when you look at the data now its pretty clear people are in fact choosing to play for the winning side - other than null sec alliances that figure they can swing the war with their own weight.
IbanezLaney
The Church of Awesome
#18 - 2013-01-17 02:38:53 UTC  |  Edited by: IbanezLaney
Squatdog wrote:
The minutes seemed to completely miss the single most jarring imbalance in Faction Warfare ie: the 'losing' side getting punished with a 50% LP reduction (while the 'winning' side gets an easily achievable +150% bonus from T4).

This means that players will simply leave the 'losing' side or be discouraged from joining in the first place, while all the farmers and gankbears will flock to the 'winning' side for free LP and cheap ganks.

If anything, T1 should be the default, or at most a trival penalty


They didn't think of it because no one that takes part in the discussion/meetings there has been our side and had to deal with Tier1.

Wouldn't even have registered to them.

EDIT:
I thought LP for plexing was a great idea at 1st. It let us make some isk in FW without being mission runners.

I was wrong - LP needs to go. All of it. If you can't make isk elsewhere in eve then you fail and should quit the game altogether.

https://soundcloud.com/ibanezlaney
ground ctrl
Goose Swarm Coalition
#19 - 2013-01-17 03:13:36 UTC
IbanezLaney wrote:
Squatdog wrote:
The minutes seemed to completely miss the single most jarring imbalance in Faction Warfare ie: the 'losing' side getting punished with a 50% LP reduction (while the 'winning' side gets an easily achievable +150% bonus from T4).

This means that players will simply leave the 'losing' side or be discouraged from joining in the first place, while all the farmers and gankbears will flock to the 'winning' side for free LP and cheap ganks.

If anything, T1 should be the default, or at most a trival penalty


They didn't think of it because no one that takes part in the discussion/meetings there has been our side and had to deal with Tier1.

Wouldn't even have registered to them.

EDIT:
I thought LP for plexing was a great idea at 1st. It let us make some isk in FW without being mission runners.

I was wrong - LP needs to go. All of it. If you can't make isk elsewhere in eve then you fail and should quit the game altogether.


I think your definitely right about the perspective of those on the csm.

But adding or removing lp won't make plexing any more or less of a pvp activity. We knew this long before these changes and posted about it:
see e.g., here:
http://www.eve-search.com/thread/1556497-0/page/1#3

yet ccp didn't really do anything to make the plexing more of pvp activity (although nerfing the rats helped a bit). They primarilly just threw isk at plexing.

If they would just add a notification system for militias when plexes are being attacked combined with a mild timer penalty if you warp out when an enemy lands then plexing would be a pvp activity. But as long as you can effictively hide in a backwater system and orbit buttons it will never be a pvp game.
Taoist Dragon
Okata Syndicate
#20 - 2013-01-17 03:29:49 UTC
meh

Blah blah blah Lets all pretend we are game designers and know how to 'fix' this awesome game we play!

F*** off ppl!


whiners.....GTFO and go play something else.

You are all accusing the CSM of doing stuff that you are currently doing. trying to make the game better for themselves.

FW is not EVE. It is a small part of it. Changes to FW affect other areas of eve and whjat YOU think may make it better balanced may in actual fact completely screw over other who play in a different area.

PVP needs to be an isk SINK or the game economy will eventually collapse under it's own weight. Sov warfare needs to be a PVE activity 'driven' by players. Despite eve being a large population server 50K people is not an aweful lot to have a very small portion of those have direct control of a sizable area of space. If FW WZC became a totally pvp based activety them it would turn into a watch the timers/structure bash to prevent the WZC from flipping 2-3 times a day.

Wait and see how the null changes affect the game as these will no doubt have a big impact on the future of how FW WZC evolves.

And apart from that it looks like FW has had it's shot for the enxt few years so I guess if you don't like it then just leave and stop pollution the forums with yet more I'm a cry baby and can't adapt to change posts!

Seriously are you all 10 year olds or something? Actually my ten year old has better ability to deal with sh!t than most of the posters on the gripenet that Warfare & Tactics has become!!

That is the Way, the Tao.

Balance is everything.
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