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Skill reallocation Option needs to finally be added and why
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Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#441 - 2013-01-17 02:24:14 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:


ppl will definately use this to re-arrange large amounts of SP's. (i dont say compeltely re-arrange skills because because ,like ppl have been saying, many support skills are transferable)

just look at the OP, he can fly a rorqual, but is now a hi-sec dweller, so he'll be re-arranging all those skills. he skileld specifically for the cane, but now thinks its useless, so he'll be respeccing them too. he also didnt like the change to missiles, so thers more respec there. and these are just the ones hes mentioned.

also joe, u thought that doing research before committing to something was an unfair expectation? it really isnt. Eve is such a complex game u should be doing reading into as many things as u can before u make commitements. i read up on this game for months before my first subscription and doing so prevented me from making many of the noob errors other ppl must have made.

but the fact that someone told u to train the tengu because it was good, must have meant u understood that it was better than other ships. maybe u didnt realise it was as overpowered as it was, but u at least knew it had quite the advantage.

and as everyone will tell u, if u train for one ship, and just one ship, its YODAF (your own dumb ass fault) when that ship gets nerfed and theres nothing else u can fly



I was not told the tengu was better than any other t3 ship in lvl 4 missions. I enjoyed missile boats at the time and someone had told me that the tengu was a good mission boat. I played with it, did some research, and built some fits.

After about a month or so of investigation I decided to train for it. No where was there information provided by CCP (that I could find) that stated that the tengu was OP and they would be nerfing it.

This means I had no knowledge of anything but the tengu itself.
it wasn't until I started looking and testing builds for other t3's that I discovered that the tengu was the only one capable of the range, dps, and tank that was superior to other t3's. Sure, other t3's could fit more range, or tank, or dps, but not all 3 combined like the tengu could.

Quote:

Step 1) Spend less than 1 day of training, if that, and then go fly some level one missions with a kiting frigate vs. a tanking frigate. You now know which battle style you prefer!

Step 2) Train for whichever type of battleship matches the playstyle you enjoyed in your test case.


Please, you and I both know that flying a frigate is no where near flying a battleship by any means.

A kiting frigate is completely different than a kiting battleship, when when it comes to running lvl 4 missions, a frigate can't tell me crap...
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#442 - 2013-01-17 02:35:44 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:

stuffs


if u thought it good enough to invest ALL ur skill points into, then thats ur own fault. a little asking around, or reading about other ships and the infamous nerf bat might have told u that skilling into a single ship (tengu or not) was a bad idea. if not, i'm telling u now. skilling into a single ship is a really bad idea. u dnt have to cross train into other races (at first) but a little versatility goes a long way and doesnt leave u with a ship u no longer want to use because it isnt the isk making machine it once was.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Astroniomix
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#443 - 2013-01-17 02:35:55 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:

it wasn't until I started looking and testing builds for other t3's that I discovered that the tengu was the only one capable of the range, dps, and tank that was superior to other t3's. Sure, other t3's could fit more range, or tank, or dps, but not all 3 combined like the tengu could.


This should have told you that the tengu was going to get a nerf bat. Especially because you should have been able to figure out what the rest of us figured out and that the tengu's power came from the fact that heavy missiles were good at pretty much everything.
Crimeo Khamsi
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#444 - 2013-01-17 02:42:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Crimeo Khamsi
Quote:
This means I had no knowledge of anything but the tengu itself.
it wasn't until I started looking and testing builds for other t3's that I discovered that the tengu was the only one capable of the range, dps, and tank that was superior to other t3's. Sure, other t3's could fit more range, or tank, or dps, but not all 3 combined like the tengu could.


So you got lucky, and were rewarded for your luck with a ship that was better than it should have been.

Then later on, it gets nerfed to what you ACTUALLY EXPECTED it to be when you trained for it. That is: equal to the other ships.

How can you complain about a nerf making a ship into what you thought it would be originally?


Quote:
Please, you and I both know that flying a frigate is no where near flying a battleship by any means.

A kiting frigate is completely different than a kiting battleship, when when it comes to running lvl 4 missions, a frigate can't tell me crap...

I don't know any such thing.

Frigates are sometimes very different than battleships, for instance if you are doing orbital speed tanking.

However, even though frigates have some "extra" playstyles that battleships can't do, the reverse is NOT true: There are no battleship playstyles that the correct frigate cannot do (at its own scale). Basic linear kiting or "stand in one place" tanking, for example, are both valid tactics in low level missions with the right frigate, and the feel of each kind of combat is exactly the same as it will be later with a battleship. Thus, the frigate tells you everything you need to know that you cannot get from statistics, when it comes to strategies that are relevant to battleships.

You now have all the data you need to make a training decision:

1) The "Feel" of it you learned from playing with the frigates.
2) The actual numerical ability of various battleships to survive level 4 missions you learned from researching their stats and looking up info about individual level 4 missions.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#445 - 2013-01-17 02:57:28 UTC
So, 20 pages later, and neither the OP nor his poor ally has been able to explain what the problem is; why it needs to be solved; or produce any kind of rebuttal to the massive list of issues with the non-solution proposed for this undefined problem. Instead, they've only managed to completely misunderstand not just EVE's business model, but also fundamentals such as F2P and P2W.

Is that about right?
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#446 - 2013-01-17 02:57:34 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:
Joe Risalo wrote:

stuffs


if u thought it good enough to invest ALL ur skill points into, then thats ur own fault. a little asking around, or reading about other ships and the infamous nerf bat might have told u that skilling into a single ship (tengu or not) was a bad idea. if not, i'm telling u now. skilling into a single ship is a really bad idea. u dnt have to cross train into other races (at first) but a little versatility goes a long way and doesnt leave u with a ship u no longer want to use because it isnt the isk making machine it once was.



Oh my god... You're either trolling, or I'm going to have to say this a little slower so you can understand it.


u


fly


da


ship


2


no


if


u


like


da


ship



Quote:
So you got lucky, and were rewarded for your luck with a ship that was better than it should have been.

Then later on, it gets nerfed to what you ACTUALLY EXPECTED it to be when you trained for it. That is: equal to the other ships.

How can you complain about a nerf making a ship into what you thought it would be originally?


No, what I expected it to be was exactly what I got because I had researched it before I trained for it.

After the nerf was announced and I had already trained for it is when I did some building to discover it was actually OP.

Quote:
I don't know any such thing.

Frigates are sometimes very different than battleships, for instance if you are doing orbital speed tanking.

However, when doing basic linear kiting or "stand in one place" tanking, the feel of the combat is exactly the same. Thus, the frigate tells you everything you need to know that you cannot get from statistics.

You now have all the data you need to make a training decision:

1) The "Feel" of it you learned from playing with the frigates.
2) The actual numerical ability of various battleships to survive level 4 missions you learned from researching their stats and looking up info about individual level 4 missions.


Again, no

I've never flown a frigate that was tank and spank. Mobility, and evasion are always part of flying a frigate. If you're sitting still, you're a dead frigate.

Also

1) I learned nothing through "feel" in eve that directly contributed to the "feel" of another ship.
There is nothing like a nightmare, thus nothing felt like flying a nightmare, expecially a frigate.

2) I may know whether of not a specific battleship is capable of performing lvl 4 missions and to what effectiveness, but this doesn't mean I'll enjoy flying that ship

3) flying a t1 fitted frigate with low skills certain gives me no experience with flying a maxed out battleship

4) Even a t1 fitted battleship is nothing like flying that very same battleship pirate fitted with maxed out skills.
Sean Parisi
Blackrise Vanguard
#447 - 2013-01-17 02:58:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Sean Parisi
I wish I was a 1337 PvP veteran like the OP was. Only then could I see the value in skill re-allocation, for I would be given the 1337 skills needed to fly Hurricanes and never anything else. I can no longer play the game, for I am not worthy - I have failed to master the secret art of 'cane'. The art of 'cane fitting' is a long lost secret that we will never know, for our 1337 PvP Veteran NPC Corp friend will never provide us with the knowledge needed to excel.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#448 - 2013-01-17 03:00:32 UTC
Astroniomix wrote:
Joe Risalo wrote:

it wasn't until I started looking and testing builds for other t3's that I discovered that the tengu was the only one capable of the range, dps, and tank that was superior to other t3's. Sure, other t3's could fit more range, or tank, or dps, but not all 3 combined like the tengu could.


This should have told you that the tengu was going to get a nerf bat. Especially because you should have been able to figure out what the rest of us figured out and that the tengu's power came from the fact that heavy missiles were good at pretty much everything.



I had trained into the tengu long before I discovered this information.
I have a life besides this game, so i'm not going to spend hours apon hours researching a ship, and then also trying to determine if it was OP in comparison to other ships.

I research fittings, I build fits, I determine capabilities of that ship, I determine the skills I'll need, and then I train.

I shouldn't have to factor balancing issues into this.
Crimeo Khamsi
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#449 - 2013-01-17 03:02:45 UTC
Quote:

Again, no

I've never flown a frigate that was tank and spank. Mobility, and evasion are always part of flying a frigate. If you're sitting still, you're a dead frigate.


I have. It's called a level 1 mission. You don't have to move at all. The enemies are so gimped that you can sit there in just about any frigate and kick all their asses.

Is that a realistic portrayal of how frigates are used in PVP, etc.? No.

Is that a realistic portrayal of what it "feels like" to fly a tank and spank battleship? Yes. And that's all that matters here.
Astroniomix
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#450 - 2013-01-17 03:03:36 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:
Astroniomix wrote:
Joe Risalo wrote:

it wasn't until I started looking and testing builds for other t3's that I discovered that the tengu was the only one capable of the range, dps, and tank that was superior to other t3's. Sure, other t3's could fit more range, or tank, or dps, but not all 3 combined like the tengu could.


This should have told you that the tengu was going to get a nerf bat. Especially because you should have been able to figure out what the rest of us figured out and that the tengu's power came from the fact that heavy missiles were good at pretty much everything.



I had trained into the tengu long before I discovered this information.
I have a life besides this game, so i'm not going to spend hours apon hours researching a ship, and then also trying to determine if it was OP in comparison to other ships.

I research fittings, I build fits, I determine capabilities of that ship, I determine the skills I'll need, and then I train.

I shouldn't have to factor balancing issues into this.

10 minutes in a fitting program, that's all it takes. Less if you aren't illiterate.
Sean Parisi
Blackrise Vanguard
#451 - 2013-01-17 03:05:02 UTC
Astroniomix wrote:
Joe Risalo wrote:
Astroniomix wrote:
Joe Risalo wrote:

it wasn't until I started looking and testing builds for other t3's that I discovered that the tengu was the only one capable of the range, dps, and tank that was superior to other t3's. Sure, other t3's could fit more range, or tank, or dps, but not all 3 combined like the tengu could.


This should have told you that the tengu was going to get a nerf bat. Especially because you should have been able to figure out what the rest of us figured out and that the tengu's power came from the fact that heavy missiles were good at pretty much everything.



I had trained into the tengu long before I discovered this information.
I have a life besides this game, so i'm not going to spend hours apon hours researching a ship, and then also trying to determine if it was OP in comparison to other ships.

I research fittings, I build fits, I determine capabilities of that ship, I determine the skills I'll need, and then I train.

I shouldn't have to factor balancing issues into this.

10 minutes in a fitting program, that's all it takes. Less if you aren't illiterate.


Yet he has time to spend on the forum defending a stupid idea...
Crimeo Khamsi
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#452 - 2013-01-17 03:08:10 UTC
Sean Parisi wrote:

Yet he has time to spend on the forum defending a stupid idea...


No evidence yet on the "literate" part though.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#453 - 2013-01-17 03:15:16 UTC
Tippia wrote:
So, 20 pages later, and neither the OP nor his poor ally has been able to explain what the problem is; why it needs to be solved; or produce any kind of rebuttal to the massive list of issues with the non-solution proposed for this undefined problem. Instead, they've only managed to completely misunderstand not just EVE's business model, but also fundamentals such as F2P and P2W.

Is that about right?


What massive list of issues?

Is it the issue that you don't want this in game?

Or is it the issue that this has never been in game, thus, you don't think it needs to be brought into the game?


There is absolutely no issues with this proposal.

Everyone will be able to do it once a year, much like everyone can remap once a year.

Remapping allows players to train certain skills faster..

Reallocating allows you to apply SP from skills you don't want into other skills.

The only difference is one allows you to train faster, while the other allows you to move SP.
That it.

Other than that they're the exact same concept. They effect SP.
One produces faster, the other relocates.


Oh, I forgot the other issues presented against this concept.

"If you trained skills you don't use, you're an idiot"

"If you were ever a noob that trained skills without knowledge, you're an idiot"

"If you have SP into ships that have been nerfed in a way that removes their effectiveness from your intended use, you're an idiot"

Forgive me for not knowing the inner workings of CCP and all the things they do behind closed doors.

If I were to determine all my decisions based off what players say on the forums, I probably wouldn't make decisions because there are people on both sides of every argument.

Until CCP says a ship is going to be nerfed I'm not going to detemine what skill I train based of whether players say a ship needs to be nerfed.

And i'm surely not taking advice from a psychologist who thinks their merits in the real world provide ANY insightful information into a freaking video game.



That's the biggest problem with Eve is there's so many people running around with tight asses and seem forget they're playing a video game.

STFU and play. When something breaks the game in a way that f#cks everything up, then say something.

Until then do what you suggest that the rest of us do and HTFU and get over it.

This will not break the game in any way.

If I train into gallente and amarr ships, then later decide I want to reallocate into pure gallente, then sure, I'll be much more effective with gallente, but I won't be as versatile.
Because of the fact that the game is balanced around space ships, than me being any better in a SPACE SHIP doesn't effect balance and break the game.
Crimeo Khamsi
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#454 - 2013-01-17 03:24:30 UTC
Quote:
And i'm surely not taking advice from a psychologist who thinks their merits in the real world provide ANY insightful information into a freaking video game.

Fun fact: The highest paid psychologist in the United States (probably the world) currently works on video game design (slots at vegas casinos).

Quote:
"If you have SP into ships that have been nerfed in a way that removes their effectiveness from your intended use, you're an idiot"

No, it's "If you have SP into ships that have been nerfed to the point where they are balanced with other ships, then you are no worse off than if you had trained for some other ship in the first place."

Thus, you have no good reason to need to move those SP. Continue flying the ship you were already flying, and you will be just as well off as if you were allowed to move the SP to a different ship.
Sean Parisi
Blackrise Vanguard
#455 - 2013-01-17 03:31:19 UTC
Crimeo Khamsi wrote:
Quote:
And i'm surely not taking advice from a psychologist who thinks their merits in the real world provide ANY insightful information into a freaking video game.

Fun fact: The highest paid psychologist in the United States (probably the world) currently works on video game design (slots at vegas casinos).

Quote:
"If you have SP into ships that have been nerfed in a way that removes their effectiveness from your intended use, you're an idiot"

No, it's "If you have SP into ships that have been nerfed to the point where they are balanced with other ships, then you are no worse off than if you had trained for some other ship in the first place."

Thus, you have no good reason to need to move those SP. Continue flying the ship you were already flying, and you will be just as well off as if you were allowed to move the SP to a different ship.


Exactly. They fail to realize that all the other ships have been moved up and down in power - In order to converge their level of power along the same contingent. Believe it or not the only thing the hurricane has been nerfed against has been cruisers and battleships. But that is the same as ALL battle-cruisers.

You want to know what I flew for the longest time? The Ferox and the Moa - Because I knew solely they weren't the FOTM and wanted to make them work. Believe it or not, they worked extremely well. All ships in eve can work effectively, but not all of them are generic hurricanes.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#456 - 2013-01-17 03:39:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Daichi Yamato
Joe Risalo wrote:



Oh my god... You're either trolling, or I'm going to have to say this a little slower so you can understand it.


u


fly


da


ship


2


no


if


u


like


da


ship



ha ha ha

let me add this...

why

did

u

invest

all

ur

skill

points

into

one

ship

if

u

didnt

even

know

whether

u

liked

it

or

not.

the

truth

is

u

already

knew

that

it

was

great

because

someone

told

u.

u

frikken

genius

edit- hilarious post. +1

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Crimeo Khamsi
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#457 - 2013-01-17 03:43:55 UTC
Sweet, maybe somebody will finally lock the thread now.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#458 - 2013-01-17 03:43:58 UTC
Crimeo Khamsi wrote:
Quote:

Again, no

I've never flown a frigate that was tank and spank. Mobility, and evasion are always part of flying a frigate. If you're sitting still, you're a dead frigate.


I have. It's called a level 1 mission. You don't have to move at all. The enemies are so gimped that you can sit there in just about any frigate and kick all their asses.

Is that a realistic portrayal of how frigates are used in PVP, etc.? No.

Is that a realistic portrayal of what it "feels like" to fly a tank and spank battleship? Yes. And that's all that matters here.



Actually, no it's not like flying a tank and spank battleship, and it certainly doesn't give any representation of flying a tank and spank bs in a lvl 4 mission


lvl 1 missions are way too easy in comparison to a lvl 4.

a lvl 1 mission can be done in a frigate, with racial frigate lvl 1, and many related skills to tanking and damage all at lvl 1.

Try flying a minimal skill tank and spank bs into a lvl 4 fully t1 fitted. You're probably gonna have some problems.
Sean Parisi
Blackrise Vanguard
#459 - 2013-01-17 03:51:14 UTC
Crimeo Khamsi wrote:
Sweet, maybe somebody will finally lock the thread now.


Yep, it keeps pushing good ideas to the bottom of the forum.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#460 - 2013-01-17 03:58:35 UTC
Crimeo Khamsi wrote:

Fun fact: The highest paid psychologist in the United States (probably the world) currently works on video game design (slots at vegas casinos).


yes, however, they provide design information and entertainment information. Everything about a casino is established in this manner to keep patrons entertained and spending money.

However, when it comes to a psychologist trying to tell my how I should enjoy a game... No.

If you're as good as these vegas casino designers, then you can tell CCP how to build this game to increase entertainment value and thus profits.

However, I don't care if you're capable of hypnosis, you don't tell me what I should like and dislike. (this is not directed at anyone is specific, but I saw someone post that they were a psychologist so I used it as an example)

Quote:

No, it's "If you have SP into ships that have been nerfed to the point where they are balanced with other ships, then you are no worse off than if you had trained for some other ship in the first place."

Thus, you have no good reason to need to move those SP. Continue flying the ship you were already flying, and you will be just as well off as if you were allowed to move the SP to a different ship.


Yes, if a ship is nerfed, it is brought into balancing lines with other ships.
However, nerfing that ship removes its effectiveness which is the very reason for which you trained for it, reguardless of whether or not you knew it was OP.

Therefore, the ship is no longer effective for the use you intended or at the very least, doesn't retain the efficiency.

I'm not talking about whether the ship is still usable, I'm talking about whether the ship is still what you trained for.

Again, as an example

If I trained for a Marauder because I wanted the most effective mission boat (though of course pirate are probably better) and CCP took the Marauder and either changed its role, or reduced its effectiveness, then whether or not it is still usable in missions is beside the point because had that ship been balanced properly when I was looking for something to train for, I may have trained for something else.

That's the point I'm getting at. CCP's lack of balance isn't my fault or my problem, but when CCP makes a rebalance and my ship loses effectiveness, then CCP has essentially taken something away from me because THEY made a mistake.

So, players should have the option to work around this, because again, if CCP hadn't made that mistake those players may not have trained for that ship.

Which is why I stated that I can't determine my training Que of whether other players think a ship is balanced or not.
If CCP thinks it isn't balanced, then CCP are the ones to determine if it gets rebalanced, not the players.

There's probably a thread out there somewhere where every poster complained about How OP the hulk is as an exhumer, yet when CCP rebalanced exhumers, the hulk didn't get nerfed.
So again, I'm not going to base by skill que off the forums unless CCP is crying "nerf". Even if the player is a psychologist..(lol)