These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Missions & Complexes

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

incursions are slowly killing off LP store profits

First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
LacLongQuan
Doomheim
#121 - 2011-10-24 05:54:38 UTC
Tsubutai wrote:
Safety has nothing to do with it; the key points are practicality and convenience. It can take several weeks for an incursion to spawn in a nearby area of lowsec/NPC 0.0, and even if one spawns, you'd need a dedicated group of incursion-running people within your corp/alliance to take advantage of one. To put that last point into perspective, the TEST/goon lowsec incursion groups tend not to attract more than 30-odd guys, from a coaltion of multiple tens of thousands; organizing a fleet from within a smaller corp/alliance is much more challenging. Conversely, in highsec, you just AFK your ship to the incursion constellation without having to worry about the locals, and have a large and active community of people looking to run sites on tap; near-instant access and no hassle.

very good point

Ammzi wrote:
You're also saying that BECAUSE highsec pilots care to actually put in effort to organize large channels and communities THEY should be punished/nerfed because they are actually putting some hard work into it.
Why? Well because nullsec bears who can't be freaking arsed to set up an operation out of their multi-thousand player alliance/blues to go and earn almost double of what highsec incursion runners are earning.
Right, nerf somebody else so you don't feel so bad? Why should I be surprised? That's how EVE seems to work anyway.

wh pilots put their effort to form up groups to farm sleeper sites, they shouldn't lose their ships to gankers, should they??

yes, wh is very profitable. but factor in splitting, sites limited, gankers. not so much more compare to unlimited incursion.
Tsubutai
Perkone
Caldari State
#122 - 2011-10-24 06:12:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Tsubutai
Ammzi wrote:
Tsubutai wrote:
Conversely, in highsec, you just AFK your ship to the incursion constellation without having to worry about the locals, and have a large and active community of people looking to run sites on tap; near-instant access and no hassle.


Right, who doesn't AFK pilot their multibillion faction battleship/t3 20-30 jumps in highsec for an incursion? I mean it's not like some silly gang of battleships are gonna gank you in a 0.5 system to get all your juicy loot while your hardeners are off and you have **** defense... right?
If you think that was too sarcastic well then cry me a river.

You're also saying that BECAUSE highsec pilots care to actually put in effort to organize large channels and communities THEY should be punished/nerfed because they are actually putting some hard work into it.
Why? Well because nullsec bears who can't be freaking arsed to set up an operation out of their multi-thousand player alliance/blues to go and earn almost double of what highsec incursion runners are earning.
Right, nerf somebody else so you don't feel so bad? Why should I be surprised? That's how EVE seems to work anyway.

A T2-fit logi can be AFK'd anywhere in highsec, and a buffered faction BS fit can get 140k+ EHP with no active hardeners or damage control; at that point, unless you're dumb and have the best part of a billion ISK of faction mods on your ship, no ganker is going to bother with you. Similarly, you can AFK multiple cruiser hulls in an Orca's SMB without issue, no matter how blinged out. Even if you insist on flying a pimpmobile around and have to move it manually, making 10-30 jumps through safe uncamped space where no one is going to shoot at you is a completely different issue to making the same number of jumps in lowsec or 0.0.

And no, I'm not saying highsec pilots should be punished, I'm saying it's silly to point to the 50% greater payouts of low/nullsec incursions as a justification for highsec payouts while ignoring the orders-of-magnitude difference in convenience and accessibility of the two. As it happens, I do think highsec VGs should be nerfed - they've more or less become the de facto standard against which other means of earning individual income by shooting red crosses are compared, and are sufficiently lucrative to have drawn people away from alternative activities in lowsec, 0.0, and W-space. I think that's pretty daft, but that's not going to keep me from abusing it while it lasts.
JitaJane
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#123 - 2011-10-24 06:27:58 UTC
Ok definitely did not read the whole thread. But For my money Incursions have been great for LP work. Look the price of tags has been prohibitive on a lot of LP items. Nobody wants faction missions and lots of us are getting paid out of the LP store, supply and demand. All those shiny incursion ships have raised the demand for a lot of LP items that simply were not worth making before. So keep it like it is.

90% of of the time my posts are about something I actually find interesting and want to learn more about. Do not be alarmed.

Jinn Rho
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#124 - 2011-10-24 06:57:52 UTC
Bottom line: Incursions [in]directly fuel PvP whilst providing grounds for dynamic player interaction.
Really, Incursions are a catalyst for socioeconomic growth.
Zoe Alarhun
The Proactive Reappropriation Corporation
#125 - 2011-10-24 07:48:14 UTC
Zrygthn Azurlm Zharous wrote:
Zoe Alarhun wrote:
Zrygthn Azurlm Zharous wrote:
Why would you bother doing null sec missions when you can make more doing high sec incursions without having to worry about get camped in station, probes, etc etc?

I was working out how much I can make in incursions today...

120mil in bounties per hour
almost 14k lp per hour which converts at about 3k isk per LP (42mil)
= 162mil per hour in the safety of high sec and the majority of it is in liquid isk...pretty ridiculous when you don't have to care about getting cynoned on, afk cloakers, roaming gangs, etc (all the usual null stuff) or hordes of pirates with a hard on for pvers (in low sec).

Ah well, I'll exploit it till they nerf it.


And what exactly is this mythical item that sells for 3K lp ?


why would I tell you?


So that you can factually prove your statement of 3K lp per item. Assertions without facts are worth nothing.
JitaJane
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#126 - 2011-10-24 08:00:28 UTC
I am getting over 3k/ Lp on some items. No not Concord LP. Yes selling to Incursion runners. No I'm not telling which the market is already getting a little crowded so I will be switching soon but broadcasting to the whole of EVe will cost me a good bit...

90% of of the time my posts are about something I actually find interesting and want to learn more about. Do not be alarmed.

Ammzi
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#127 - 2011-10-24 13:32:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Ammzi
Cambarus wrote:
Zrygthn Azurlm Zharous wrote:
Ammzi wrote:
Zrygthn Azurlm Zharous wrote:
Why would you bother doing HIGH sec incursions when you can make more doing null sec incursions without having to worry about getting hot dropped?

I was working out how much I can make in NULLSEC incursions today...

171 mil in bounties per hour
almost 23k lp per hour which converts at about 3k isk per LP (69mil)
= 240mil per hour in the safety of my null sec alliance space and the majority of it is in liquid isk...pretty ridiculous when you don't have to care about getting cynoned on, afk cloakers, roaming gangs, etc (all the usual null stuff) or hordes of pirates with a hard on for pvers (in low sec).

Ah well, I'll exploit it till they nerf it.


Fixed your post.


if you include all the time you spend waiting for an incursion to show up in friendly space you make about 13k per hour...


Therein lies the problem. Incursions themselves are balanced just fine, it's the inability to summon them in space you own that's the problem. Also ammzi's numbers are a tad conservative IMO, a fleet of zealots/t3s can clear an NCO in 3 minutes, and without the hundreds of people competing for sites you could definitely run them non-stop for at least a good few hours, pulling in a good 250-300 an hour, before factoring in LP.


I used his (Zrygthn Azurlm Zharous) own numbers and just added the extra reward that exists in nullsec and lowsec.
But yes, completely agree. You can earn several hundred million ISK in nullsec and lowsec.


Tsubutai wrote:


And no, I'm not saying highsec pilots should be punished, I'm saying it's silly to point to the 50% greater payouts of low/nullsec incursions as a justification for highsec payouts while ignoring the orders-of-magnitude difference in convenience and accessibility of the two. As it happens, I do think highsec VGs should be nerfed - they've more or less become the de facto standard against which other means of earning individual income by shooting red crosses are compared, and are sufficiently lucrative to have drawn people away from alternative activities in lowsec, 0.0, and W-space. I think that's pretty daft, but that's not going to keep me from abusing it while it lasts.



It's true, I really do agree. I live in a C6 wormhole myself and we just barely manage to get the same payout that I find in highsec incursions when doing the C6 anomalies. A C6 site is about 1.5 b isk take or add a few hundred million isk and they take about an hour to do and salvage.
So that's 150 m isk right there for each 10 pilots, but that's really the most optimal. You have to counter in scan time for fuel, pvp, maintenance, etc. etc.
This you don't have in highsec, you just move yourself to a constellation and advertise for a fleet or start one yourself.

But nerfing vanguards does not solve MY issue or in fact everyone's issue regarding incursions.
Vanguards are not supposed to be the most popular sites, all tiers should be equally occupied and hopefully larger tiers more desired than lesser tiers.
And this is where I come in and say that if you do nerf vanguards by a mere 10-20 % you're not gonna completely break off that popularity (hence not solving the issue), you need to buff assaults and headquarters as well OR nerf vanguards by 40 %.
However the latter solution will only result in a migration away from incursions.

Therefore it is in our interest to nerf vanguards by a small percentage and buff assaults and headquarters, making it more attractive to create, organize and maintain larger fleets.
It's not really easy to keep the right fleet composition over the course of several hours with 40 pilots where 2-3 pilots are leaving every 30 min. and you need to replace those with other pilots whom you don't know, but just advertise in a channel. You need to check all their fits, make sure they are nearby and on their way etc. etc....

There's also a limit for how long people are willing to stay in front of the computer focused for x amount of time continuously.
This is not just afk isk, you have to be there every damn second. If you are gone for just 15 seconds and come back you might find yourself in your pod. You have to switch targets all the time, make sure to broadcast when needed, keep an eye on anchor distance, listen to the FC. Doing this for 1 hour straight is a bit over the top for most people so they want a break.
Cambarus
The Baros Syndicate
#128 - 2011-10-24 18:06:06 UTC
Tsubutai wrote:

And no, I'm not saying highsec pilots should be punished, I'm saying it's silly to point to the 50% greater payouts of low/nullsec incursions as a justification for highsec payouts while ignoring the orders-of-magnitude difference in convenience and accessibility of the two. As it happens, I do think highsec VGs should be nerfed - they've more or less become the de facto standard against which other means of earning individual income by shooting red crosses are compared, and are sufficiently lucrative to have drawn people away from alternative activities in lowsec, 0.0, and W-space. I think that's pretty daft, but that's not going to keep me from abusing it while it lasts.

50% better payouts (and with the lack of competition it's trivial to pull in 2-300% more isk/hour) is literally the biggest difference in terms of isk/hour wrt sec status in the game, and I would LOVE for CCP to make the rest of nullsec activities that profitable when compared to their highsec counterparts. You can't earn 3 times the isk running sanctums that you can running lvl 4s, not even close. Mining MAYBE, it's been so long I don't actually remember how null ores compare to HS ones anymore, but then mining is so broken that's irrelevant anyway.

If CCP made nullsec incursions farmable the issue of balance would be 100% sorted out when it comes to incursions vs other isk making activities (though it still leaves the issue of vanguards being the most profitable).
xVx dreadnaught
modro
Northern Coalition.
#129 - 2011-10-24 19:02:08 UTC
Fact is, Mission runners can sit in their little bubble all day, running lvl 4's with 2-3 accounts spinning themselves a nice amount of isk.

They don't depend on anyone else, they have no major risk to their ships and they certainly have no worries of griefers. (unless they are stupid enough to shoot on a ninja looter)

Incursion runners, such as myself have to worry about all of these things, they have to take calculated risks and put trust in other people. They have to work together in order to remain alive, never mind efficient at making isk.

If a mission runner is having a bad day it's because he got some **** loot in his missions or his agent is giving him crap.

I've lost over 10 billion isk worth in a blink of an eye on more than one occasion in incursions so don't you dare say there's no risk cos I will perma-dec your mission running *** ass and show you real isk at the end of my 1400's!
Tetragammatron Prime
Pink Sockers
#130 - 2011-10-24 19:34:17 UTC
You must be pretty bad to lose 10bil doing high sec pve...just as bad as anyone stupid enough to shoot a ninja salvager.

Do we really want the game balanced around terrible noobs? I'd rather see the game balanced so that everyone can make a fair income and not have high sec exploited by people who are more than capable of making ~160mil per hour in complete safety. Much the same situation when lvl5s were in high sec and sure there were noobs slowly grinding through 1 mission an hour making about the same isk per hour as running lvl4s. There were others blitzing 5-6 missions an hour making 400-500k LP per hour in high sec.

Maikhanh
Doomheim
#131 - 2011-10-24 21:03:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Maikhanh
xVx dreadnaught wrote:
Fact is, Mission runners can sit in their little bubble all day, running lvl 4's with 2-3 accounts spinning themselves a nice amount of isk.

They don't depend on anyone else, they have no major risk to their ships and they certainly have no worries of griefers. (unless they are stupid enough to shoot on a ninja looter)

Incursion runners, such as myself have to worry about all of these things, they have to take calculated risks and put trust in other people. They have to work together in order to remain alive, never mind efficient at making isk.

If a mission runner is having a bad day it's because he got some **** loot in his missions or his agent is giving him crap.

I've lost over 10 billion isk worth in a blink of an eye on more than one occasion in incursions so don't you dare say there's no risk cos I will perma-dec your mission running *** ass and show you real isk at the end of my 1400's!

I say that there isnt any risk in running incursion
JackStraw56
Run Like an Antelope
#132 - 2011-10-24 21:58:30 UTC
So the argument is no longer that incursions are killing LP stores, but that people are whining that high sec incursions generate too much isk? Got it.
Tsubutai
Perkone
Caldari State
#133 - 2011-10-24 22:00:03 UTC
xVx dreadnaught wrote:
Incursion runners, such as myself have to worry about all of these things, they have to take calculated risks and put trust in other people. They have to work together in order to remain alive, never mind efficient at making isk.

...

I've lost over 10 billion isk worth in a blink of an eye on more than one occasion in incursions so don't you dare say there's no risk cos I will perma-dec your mission running *** ass and show you real isk at the end of my 1400's!

There is no meaningful risk whatsoever in highsec incursion-running; if you somehow managed to lose 10b in them, you're ... a very special person. Congratulations!
Jinn Rho
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#134 - 2011-10-24 22:16:46 UTC
Tsubutai wrote:
There is no meaningful risk whatsoever in highsec incursion-running; if you somehow managed to lose 10b in them, you're ... a very special person. Congratulations!


10b isk loss is pretty silly in HS... but you're more ignorant than ever if you truly believe there is no risk in HS Incursions.
You obviously don't know the griefing involved in these things. And yes, there is more griefing in incursions than the typical missioner because you are 100% dependent on others. (FYI incursioners run buffer tank, no local rep.)

And really, people need to quit whining so much.
"CryPoor pvp me, I can't get the same isk generator as HS incursioners... even though I'm blatantly ignoring the fact that a good chunk of those players also pvp and bring bling to pvp battles, where if they do pop, makes the better killmail. boo hoo. Cry"
Tetragammatron Prime
Pink Sockers
#135 - 2011-10-25 00:14:48 UTC
oh yeah they are all pvpers :D just like the people who whined about sanctum nerf "oh we need those sanctums in every system so we can afford to pvp!!" look at killboard oh...they only lose 1-2 bc a month covered by their alliance SRP! pull the other one
Goose99
#136 - 2011-10-25 01:20:48 UTC
JackStraw56 wrote:
So the argument is no longer that incursions are killing LP stores, but that people are whining that high sec incursions generate too much isk? Got it.


You missed the point. It's that certain retards cannot get fleet invite with their failfits, and is butthurt about it, thus they came to the forums to troll about it. "Too much isk" only applies when they can't earn it.Cool
xVx dreadnaught
modro
Northern Coalition.
#137 - 2011-10-26 13:40:40 UTC
Goose99 wrote:
JackStraw56 wrote:
So the argument is no longer that incursions are killing LP stores, but that people are whining that high sec incursions generate too much isk? Got it.


You missed the point. It's that certain retards cannot get fleet invite with their failfits, and is butthurt about it, thus they came to the forums to troll about it. "Too much isk" only applies when they can't earn it.Cool



My 10bill isk grief/loss was replaced in a matter of days, cos that's how I role Cool

I've actually started doing more Assault sites, and less of the VG grinding. It's more enjoyable and a more relaxed pace, less rushing into sites because you're competing against half a dozen fleets in one system. even if the isk/hour ratio is a bit slower.
Goose99
#138 - 2011-10-26 14:33:06 UTC
xVx dreadnaught wrote:
Goose99 wrote:
JackStraw56 wrote:
So the argument is no longer that incursions are killing LP stores, but that people are whining that high sec incursions generate too much isk? Got it.


You missed the point. It's that certain retards cannot get fleet invite with their failfits, and is butthurt about it, thus they came to the forums to troll about it. "Too much isk" only applies when they can't earn it.Cool



My 10bill isk grief/loss was replaced in a matter of days, cos that's how I role Cool

I've actually started doing more Assault sites, and less of the VG grinding. It's more enjoyable and a more relaxed pace, less rushing into sites because you're competing against half a dozen fleets in one system. even if the isk/hour ratio is a bit slower.


10 bil? Loss mail or it didn't happen.Cool
LacLongQuan
Doomheim
#139 - 2011-10-26 19:11:05 UTC
xVx dreadnaught wrote:
Goose99 wrote:
JackStraw56 wrote:
So the argument is no longer that incursions are killing LP stores, but that people are whining that high sec incursions generate too much isk? Got it.


You missed the point. It's that certain retards cannot get fleet invite with their failfits, and is butthurt about it, thus they came to the forums to troll about it. "Too much isk" only applies when they can't earn it.Cool



My 10bill isk grief/loss was replaced in a matter of days, cos that's how I role Cool

I've actually started doing more Assault sites, and less of the VG grinding. It's more enjoyable and a more relaxed pace, less rushing into sites because you're competing against half a dozen fleets in one system. even if the isk/hour ratio is a bit slower.

and you argue that incursion isn't isk faucet. 10b in a few days in hisec, indeed it's needed to be nerfed
Sturmwolke
#140 - 2011-10-26 19:20:51 UTC
xVx dreadnaught wrote:

It's more enjoyable and a more relaxed pace, less rushing into sites because you're competing against half a dozen fleets in one system. even if the isk/hour ratio is a bit slower.


I think that should be remedied. Have the FC recruit logies exclusively from the local Incursion channel.
The fleet needs a bit of rush now and then to keep them awake. Twisted